Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dead Marconi Scientists

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep, no consensus. —WikiFanatic 03:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Marconi Scientists and Marconi Scientists

unverified

• Delete as per my nom. Dlyons493 Talk 03:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment max rspct confirms the historicity of the suspicions and allegations. Focussing on those and gaving sources for them would make for an interesting article. Dlyons493 Talk 14:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
    • comment Does that mean you wish to strike your delete vote? --bodnotbod 16:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• 'Strong Keep' - A programme on British TV called 'Scandal' recently featured these mysterious deaths. British scientists who all worked on Sting Ray torpedo all apparently dead > over 25 of them. Possibly an enormous scandal if somebody is able to blow the whistle or find out more info.. Media seems to have completely forgotton about it all... and then Dr David Kelly.. -max rspct 13:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment "Dearth of deaths" means they didn't happen. Are you surte that is what you meant to say? Could you point us to something on the WEB about this? The BBC does have a WEB site, after all. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 02:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment thanks for clarifying what you meant. Now, can you point us to any verifiable sources for this? -- Dalbury^(Talk) 16:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Source is Scandal - BBC2 November 30, 9.50pm. I happen to have it on VHS as it directly followed Rome (TV series). (See more comments below). --bodnotbod 15:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect together - I'd rather see the Dead Marconi Scientists article be the one to remain, because it tells you more about what it is, but I don't mind either way. This is very encyclopaedic and verified. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 15:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
  • max rspct says: I had a bug on the terminal i was using... should be 'dead marconi scientists' Merge if folk know how to do it
• Delete Five unique Google hits for "Dead Marconi Scientists", two on Wikipedia and the other three on sites pushing or debunking conspiracy theories. I would say this is unverifiable at this time. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 02:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - forgive me, but a Google search for dead Marconi scientists is a spectacularly poor indicator of verifiability of this news story. I understand that you made that search based on the article title, which could also be better in my opinion (though I have not yet got an alternative to recommend). Please see my search below which returns pages featuring the names of two of the dead, namely Vimal Dajibhai and Ashaad Sharif. --bodnotbod 15:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • 'Comment - This book, Open Verdict would appear to be about the deaths. --bodnotbod 16:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Strong keep - I notice that the only other keep is from Max who is almost sole contributor to the article and a relatively new user. I'm a Wikipedian of long standing and I'm throwing my weight well and truly behind him. I can confirm that this affair made a recent appearance on the BBC programme Scandal. It is absolutely a ripe subject for any number of mad conspiracy theories, however that does not mean it should not have an article, it just means that we have to be careful about how we explain the various theories to our readers and do our best to keep it free of, scuse my language, crap. This Google search of two of the dead returns 300+ hits. --bodnotbod 15:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • comment - as mentioned above, I happen to have the relevant segment of the BBC programme Scandal on VHS tape. Here's a few notes:
    • As mentioned above source details are: Scandal - BBC2 November 30, 9.50pm.
    • Segment is titled Death of a scientist (singular strangely, since there are many deaths).
    • Details of Vimal Dajibhai's death are given.
    • A tabloid headline is shown BOFFIN DIES IN MARCONI JINX RIDDLE however tabloid masthead is not shown, so can't identify paper.
    • Death of David Sands described (car crash) - worked for Easams, a part of the Marconi group.
    • Moira Stewart is shown on a television, she's hosting BBC News saying "The Labour MP Doug Hoyle has asked the givernment to hold an urgent inquiry after the death of another scientist involved in defense work"
    • MP David Hoyle is shown voicing his concerns.
    • Archive television news footage outlining Trevor Knight's death "he's the 5th Marconi scientist involved in defense work to die mysteriously".
    • Unsourced voice overlays (the impression is that they are either TV or radio news) briefly mention deaths of Victor Moore(sp?), Bhapti Vinghida(sp!?), John Ferry.
    • Pages of the Mail on Sunday are shown with pictures of the dead. Top of page banner headline Trail of Tragedy Through A Top Secret World (then beneath as main headline) MYSTERY DEATH OF SCIENTIST No 7.
    • Tony Collins, author of Open Verdict is seen in archived interview.
    • Death of Shaney Warren(sp?) described.
    • Death of Robert Greenhall Greenhalgh [1] described given by BBC Newsreader Martin Lewis (I think).
    • Closing caption: By 1990, at least 25 people connected to the Defence Industry had died in mysterious circumstances
    • End of segment. --bodnotbod 15:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
      • Whaaa!!? You taped it? Plenty to go on now! -max rspct 16:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
        • As I say, it was just cos it happened to be after Rome and I'd set my player to just keep recording. Thought you'd be pleased ;o) --bodnotbod 16:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment - In spite of the assurances provided by Max rspct and Bodnotbod I can find nothing about this subject on the Internet, including on the BBC site. I can't even find a listing for a program called Scandal. Wikipedia:Verifiability requires that "articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources". Until someone can provide sources verifying the contents of these two article that other editors can check, these articles do not meet the verifiability standard, and should be deleted. If these articles do not get deleted, then everything in them that cannot be verified will have to be removed from the articles. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 17:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Regarding the "nothing" on the internet As I say above: this Google search of two of the dead returns 300+ hits. Here's a TV listing for a different episode of the programme Google cache of a TV listing in national newspaper. This discussion should be about whether the article is deleted. Issues of article content should be confined to the article talk page. --bodnotbod 17:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Possible source Anybody got a New Scientist subscription? --bodnotbod 18:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Snippet of evidence of notability, this page in Hansard refers to Open Verdict by Tony Collins about the deaths. --bodnotbod 18:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Existence of series - last two paras of this TV viewing figures round-up. --bodnotbod 18:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • MAJOR SOURCE - the lower third of this article from the National Review begins to discuss the British deaths as part of wider concerns about deaths in the defense/science community. Max - plenty there for you to get your teeth into, includes most, if not all, of the names mentioned in Scandal along with details of politicians voicing concern about the deaths. --bodnotbod 18:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Source further article from Newsquest (see the foot of the ThisIsLocalLondon home page), a major British local newspaper publisher. --bodnotbod 18:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment - That's a start. Of course, I don't find most of the web sites that report this to be credible (too many of them have "UFO" in their names), and I'm not registered for the Guardian or the New Scientist. The book would carry more weight, but I doubt I can find a copy to look at before this discussion is closed. Note also that the section headed "Resources" in Marconi Scientists doesn't cut it for a source. Wikipedia:Cite sources lays out how references should be cited. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 18:54, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

BBC listing for series >[2] -max rspct 15:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• Strong keep I also watched the Program on BBC2 so in fact hunted for more details on Wikipedia - The strangest News Report relates to - Shani Warren, twenty-six years old. Personal assistant in a company called Micro Scope, which was taken over by GEC Marconi less than four weeks after her death. Found drowned in 45cm. (18in) of water, not far from the site of Greenhalgh’s death fall. Warren died exactly one week after the death of Gooding and serious injury to Greenhalgh on 10th April 1987. She was found gagged with a noose around her neck. Her feet were also bound and her hands tied behind her back. Coroner’s verdict: Open. (It was said that Warren had gagged herself, tied her feet with rope, then tied her hands behind her back and hobbled to the lake on stiletto heels to drown herself.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.20.25 (talk • contribs). Only other edit from this IP address is in the Marconi Scientists article.

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.