Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Clamecy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 02:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Clamecy

Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Clamecy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Cannot find any reference to this cathedral, even using variations of name and spelling. Original author has questionable history. It's a hoax or mistake. Glendoremus 06:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• delete No content--Sefringle 06:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I'm assuming it's a hoax. -- Chairman S. Talk ^Contribs 07:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Likely hoax, based on these factors, or an error. - Denny 07:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep It's NOT a hoax. Dozens of online tour guides refer to tours of "Clamecy Cathedral" ([1] and [2], for instance). Clamacy has a collegiate church, but for something like 600 years it was the home of the Bishop of Bethlehem! (Yes, that Bethlehem.) The cathedral is 13th century and may now be known as the Collegiate Church of St. Martin. If so, and if tour guides call it a cathedral, it's a legitimate entry, at least as a historical seat. By the way, for those who aren't Catholic, a "cathedral" is merely a church that is also the seat of a bishop. It doesn't have to be big or fancy. Given that the original creator appears to be a major contributor to articles on French churches, I suggest that this is legitimate and that the cathedral really does exist, at least as a historical entity. --Charlene 07:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep as sources are sparse and it's a redlink request on FR fr:Portail:Bourgogne. The real name seems to be Eglise Notre-Dame de Bethléem à Clamecy[3][4][5] (it's the flattish dome building, not the one with the classic gothic tower). Unsure about the "monument" part (though here's a French government listing) or even a construction date. It seems it hasn't been a cathedral since 1790. --Dhartung | Talk 07:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment According to the barge tour people, it's 13th century. It appears to be a notable tourist destination, but there may not be that much out there about it online. --Charlene 08:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It this the church that Clamecy, Nièvre#Sights tells us (without citing sources) is now part of a hotel? Uncle G 12:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Cathedral exists but the page doesn't provide any meaningful information as it is now. Either expand considerably or delete. Travelbird 08:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I expanded it a bit, and it should now be acceptable as a stub. Travelbird 17:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep- cathedrals are very notable Astrotrain 15:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep as a good faith stub. Some information from this afd should be added into the article. —siroχo 17:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Medieval cathedrals and formal cathedral churches ought to be "notable" per se, without any further showing of fame or widespread knowledge. The best thing to say is that they are, in fact, encyclopedic. All that should be shown is that they existed, and I'm satisfied that's the case here. - Smerdis of Tlön 20:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Dhartung and Charlene. It also seems that a rename may be in order. -- Black Falcon 21:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The Seat of the Bishop of Bethlehem from 1223 to 1790 sounds amazingly encyclopedic, and it now has several good references. Edison 23:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This was not an actual bishopric, but a titular bishop, the diocese no longer existing after the failure of the Crusades.

No, it was an actual bishopric in partibus infidelium (a status the church abandoned in 1882). A titular bishopric is one assigned to a bishop without an actual diocese. --Dhartung | Talk 11:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• keep because none the less , certainly any Cathedral is N. I don't think it was claimed otherwise, the difficulty was just in verifying the correct name to find the sources. DGG 08:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Thanks for all the good input to my nomination. I'll concede the article is not a hoax but I do believe there's been a mistake--there is no church with the name Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Clamecy. There is a Collegiate Church of St. Martin in Clamecy (started in the 13th or 14 century); There is a Church of Notre Dame in Bethleem (built in 1926 or 1927); and there was another (smallish) church in Bethleem that may have technically been a cathedral at one time but has since been partially destroyed and converted into a hotel. [6] The article as it has been rewritten in the past 24 hours seems to be a pastiche of all three of these churches. My new vote would be to rename the article to one of the two existing churches and then add a second article to cover the other. The interesting and notable info about the Bishopric of Bethlehem could go with the Bethleem church or even stand alone as a third article.Glendoremus 17:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I found out the domey church was actually 1926 at some point yesterday, but I was too busy to follow up on my confusion. Interestingly, it is considered a landmark of 20th century architecture in Bourgogne[7][8], so probably deserves a listing. It isn't *the* former cathedral, but it's obviously the one with the frescoes! Now, the bit about the hotel seems to be that there is a chapel in what was a 12th century hospital established by Guillaume IV at the same time. It isn't clear to me that the hospital and chapel itself was the seat of the bishopric, but that seems to be what has become a hotel. Argh! --Dhartung | Talk 11:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, no, it says so here[9]: Ancienne chapelle des évêques de Bethléem* 12ème remaniée 15ème (IMH), transformée en hôtel-restaurant. (Former chapel of the bishops of Bethlehem, 12th through 15th centuries, converted to a hotel-restaurant). That seems to be the clincher -- wish I'd found that 24 hours earlier! I think that the name Ancienne Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-Bethléem (or Former Cathedral Notre-Dame-de-Bethléem is best; that is supported here[10]. I'll make a new article for the newer church as the architectural features are a small part of the article. For the record, I don't see that I confused it with the third church at all, but please point anything specific out. --Dhartung | Talk 11:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Or we could go with Chapelle des évêques de Bethléem supported by this[11]. --Dhartung | Talk 11:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.