Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boxcar Betty

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Johnleemk | Talk 15:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boxcar Betty

Unsourced, created by vandal and only edited by vandal and sock puppet (except for the editor who added the {{unreferenced}} tag. If verifiably hoax, speedy delete (as nonsense), otherwise delete. --Nlu (talk) 16:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Boxcar Betty was a real person and marginally notable, but there is very little source material to be found to actually make an article. She is the subject of a song by David Rovics, but a Google search for her excluding his album ("Boxcar Betty" -rovics IWW) turns up one or two hits. Mike Dillon 16:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - article needs cleanup and some attempt at organizing the sources that do exist, but it should probably be kept. I'm not sure whether the article should be about the "amalgamated character" or the IWW organizer, but it should probably mention that there was not just one person named that. Mike Dillon 15:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep Needs better sourcing. The hobo seems to exist [1] but is this the same person as the IWW organiser? One wouldn't expect much material on a hobo but there's a picture of her at hobos.com and the story of the cat suggests she lives in folklore. Dlyons493 Talk 16:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete. There were actually several people, homeless, hobos, etc. during the depression who got the name Boxcar Betty. The best known was the one referenced in this article. It will be hard to find anything to verify it. Crunch 16:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete in accord with Crunch's argument. Ruby 17:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep She does indeed live in folklore. Apart from already mentioned stuff, especially http://www.film.queensu.ca/CBC/L.html, I've managed to find references on her in "Joe Hill" by Wallace Stegner, "Silent Dreams" by Dandi Daley MacKall and "Part of Our Time: Some Ruins and Monuments of the Thirties" by Murray Kempton (see Amazon). In order to make it more appropriate, I’ve put "legendary organizer" (rather than mythical, for she probably existed). Also, I added the part from http://www.thevalkyrie.com/stories/misc2/boxcar.txt "her name itself has become synonomous with rollicking, rough and tumble adventure". I've also mentioned Reitman's "Sister of the Road" on Boxcar Bertha, who, apart from being a fictionalized amalgam, was a Wobbly (see http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/nudge/joe_murphy.html for instance), which points out to the interchangeability of the two names (at least in popular accounts such as Rovics's song).

It's hard to find many references for an uneducated hobo (probably illiterate), she's primarily a part of oral storytelling.

As David Rovics mentions at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Backstage/1472/rovics.html: I feel like there is a hidden history in most of my songs; a history that probably less than 1% of American society is really familiar with (that is, those that read the alternative press). Very few people know about David Chain, or Judi Bari, or Boxcar Betty, or the many examples from labor history represented in "Glory and fame," or the fact that Ford built tanks for the nazis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.70.213 (talk • contribs).

• Keep, real part of folklore immortalized in song. Kappa 07:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, I agree keep, but try to determine if the person is based on folklore or reality.216.174.52.253 16:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - I was the one who originally reported the author on WP:AIV because he had linked to Boxcar Betty and Industrial Workers of the World from dozens of slightly relevant and some totally irrelevant articles. I don't actually think he is a vandal, just an overzealous editor who wasn't thinking enough about whether those links were appropriate in context. (the author is a guy named Dan at 82.35.70.213, also registered as User:Njeznirevolucionar) Mike Dillon 16:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom as unverifiable. Stifle 00:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - I think existence in folklore, literature and music have already been verified, the question whether it was a real figure or a mix of various experiences (although it is highly probable that this person indeed existed) is secondary to its symbolic value, and is so characterised in the article itself (the prefix "legendary" and so on). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.70.213 (talk • contribs).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.