Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bok Man Kim

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete for failure to meet WP:BIO and WP:V. If somebody wants to recreate the article at some point in the future, they can, as long as the new article meets those criteria. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: post-closing, it was also pointed out this this is a copyvio of http://www.integritymaa.com/kim.htm -- RoySmith (talk) 23:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bok Man Kim

Bok Man Kim (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

• Delete, per WP:BIO and WP:V. This article violates the notability criteria on WP:BIO. Though I have no issue with articles on minor sports figures in Tae Kwan Do and the like, WP:BIO requires objective 3rd party verification of sports figures in citation. All that has been supplied are links to advertisements for this individual's schools, from which the wiki site is copied verbatim. Evidently, the author of this article also owns these sites, which makes me wonder if this whole article isn't simply an advertisement. Djma12 23:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
• As a reference and guide for this conversation, I have taken the liberty to include WP:BIO's exact criteria for sports figures:
  

Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad are worthy of articles. Third-party verification from a non-trivial publication outside of publications by sponsors of the sport or activity should be provided to demonstrate that the subject is widely recognized—meeting the first criterion—as performing in a fully professional league or at the highest level. (Emphasis inserted by me.) Djma12 23:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Ordinary Korean who has done a bit of martial arts, as far as I can tell. Anthony Appleyard 23:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• Do Not Delete Not just an "Ordinary Korean who has done a bit of martial arts", Bok Man Kim did more to spread Tae Kwon Do to south east Asia and the world then say Jhoon Rhee who has an article on wiki. He would not fall under the above category as he was never a competitor he was always an instructor and promoter of TKD who was instemental in the creation and development of what is TKD. when you ask for third party non-trivial publications he has had articles written about him in every major martial arts magazine I can think of including Black Belt, Budo, TKD & Korean Martial Arts, TKD Times and FightSport. And as far as the links being to this indiduals schools they are not. They are to the Tae Kwon Do Hall of fame and the World Chun Kuhn Do websites. And please re-read the article it has already been re-writen.Saboem 01:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• As a side note, Jhoon Rhee's article has also been marked for deletion. Djma12 17:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Ed Parkers article should be added to your crusade for all the same reasonsSaboem 03:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Still Delete I've read the re-written article. There are still no citations other than to Bok Man Kim's schools and an unverified Taekwando Hall of Fame (which uses the same bio as his school's site...) for reference. You claim to have references to Black Belt Magazine, Budo, TKD, etc..., but I've asked for them for a week now and no reference has been found. Regardless of whether you think they've been published or not, if you can't specify the exact citation for where these references occur, this article conflicts with WP:BIO. Djma12 03:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The link to TKD & Korean martial arts magazine is here http://www.martialartsinprint.com/ they also publish combat magazine which has also published articles about GM Kim their website is being redone at the moment but should be back up soon one article came out in TKD and Korean Martial arts I believe June 2003 (is a European mag so maybe that is just when it made it to the US)by the way your remark insinuating that I am making anything up is uncalled for as I have stated a siple google search would net you some info. As to the TKD Hall of Fame the Bio is what they took from his website yes but they also are in the process of scanning and uploading newspaper articles to support their info, here are some they have up now http://www.lacancha.com/brunei1.html http://www.lacancha.com/brunei2.html http://www.lacancha.com/brunei3.html the first article is in english the second and third well I am not sure what is the official language of Brunei, more are suppossed to be posted during the next month or so. Djma12 I am not sure what you are looking for but I asure you this article was put up not as an advertisement.If you have any quesstions please feel free to ask. Saboem 05:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Please don't take this personally, as it is not meant as such, but none of the sources you have provided fit the WP:Bio standards as "Third-party verification from a non-trivial publication outside of publications by sponsors of the sport or activity." Here's why:

• Http://www.chunkuhndo.com/ - Does not count b/c the site is an advertisement for his book. (See http://www.chunkuhndo.com/book.html)
• The Taekwando Hall of Fame (http://www.lacancha.com/kimbokman.html) - Also does not qualify as a 3rd party source b/c it is a) An advertisement (see http://www.lacancha.com/tkdbanquet2006.html) and b) Published by sponsors of the sport or activity.
• http://www.martialartsinprint.com/ - There is no information about Bok Man Kim on this site. Merely pointing to a "Site under Construction" page and saying that Bok Man Kim is in there is unsufficient.
• The newspaper article on Taekwando Hall of Fame - Comes close to a 3rd party site. However: a) We need more information about the source (WP:Bio requirement for non-trivial sources, I have no idea what the "Daily Star" is) and b) The provided article does not state why Bok Man Kim is NOTABLE. It merely states that he went to Brunei.
• Also of note, I don't think newspaper articles posted on a site classified as an advertisement or a sponsor of the sport count as 3rd Party Verification.
• The Taekwando in Singapore Website (http://www.taekwondo.sg/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=1) - Is this even a real website? Sure, the article on Bok Man Kim works, but every other link returns a database error. It's as if the page was created for displaying one or two pages. 66.251.16.100 14:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The other pages show a PHP error if you scroll down the info is there. My guess is that either they need a better PHP programer or something is messed up in translation.66.54.161.105 07:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)I have updated link to Singapore TKD siteSaboem 05:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Djma12 17:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Please Do not delete -He is one of the very early worldwide pioneers of Taekwondo but was more active in South East Asia. If he was more active in the US , I'm sure he would have been more popular.--Jondel 08:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, unless citations provided. Again, please note, I am not debating whether Bok Man Kim was important to Taewkondo or not. I am merely pointing out that no one has been able to supply 3rd party verification on this individuals notability. If some one can provide citations not linked with sponsors of the sport, including Newspaper/Magazine Name, Date, Page Number, and why the article states he is notable, I will withdraw my deletion vote. Djma12 17:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Concur with delete. No independant evidence seems to be provided here that places him above other well-studied martial arts masters.LotSolarin 14:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
• Please take into account WP:NOR when posting about Bok Man. Though I am sure many here are well-respected in the Taekwando community, Wiki standards forbid us for vouching for an article based upon personal experience. Djma12 16:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• Do Not Delete an article about GM Kim was in the August 2003 issue of TKD & Korean Martial Arts magazine there website is down but I have added a link to a website that shows a picture of the cover when the magazines website is back up I will place a link to his article there. As a note the article about Nam Tae Hi(June 2003) and Rhee Ki Ha(Oct 1996) both talk about GM Kim.Saboem 05:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Great, another claim for a source that is impossible to verify.Djma12 16:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• See WP:BIO.
  Unacceptable Sources include:

• Media reprints of the person's autobiography or self-promotional works. Http://www.chunkuhndo.com/, http://www.lacancha.com/kimbokman.html fall in this category.
• Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that just mention the person in passing, telephone directory listings, or simple records of births and deaths. "Daily Star" newspaper article, http://www.taekwondo.sg/ fall under this category. The "new citation" that is merely a magazine cover definitely falls under this category, unless you can find the actual article.

Let's look at other WP:BIO tests

• The professor test - Does anyone outside of his schools and Taekwando academics know who he is? I would venture to say no.
• Verifiability - Can all information on the article be INDEPENDENTLY verified, say 10 years from now. Please see my critique above about the sources.
• 100 year test (future speculation) -- In 100 years time will anyone without a direct connection to the individual find the article useful? We don't even know who he is NOW, much less in a 100 years...

No you don't know who he is. Why not wait for TKD & Koean Martial arts magazines website to come back up, I posted a link to the working Singapore TKD website that gives ahistory of TKD in that country, "The author of the page owns the website that sells his book, for crying out loud" so the Ed Parker page is written by one of his students that sells his video's."Does anyone outside of his schools and Taekwando academics know who he is? I would venture to say no" just like noone outside of EPAK schools don't know Ed Parker is, GM kim made 4 Hong Kong films in the 70's if you can read Chinese you can find them I have copys of one of the movies all titles are in Chinese so I am having trouble finding what studio produced. Please give a little more time to find info and links.Saboem 18:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• And when is this website going to be back up, if ever? This discussion about "Give me time, I'll find unbiased sources" has been going on for two weeks now. You should have been able to dig up non-commercial sources by now. And where is the evidence that he is in Chinese films?? He's not on IMDB, all I can tell is that you're violating WP:NOR again. Djma12 18:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• so(?) the Ed Parker page is written by one of his students that sells his video's... We have an admission that the author of the Bok Man page is selling his book, thus directly violating WP:BIO. Do we need any more evidence for Speedy Deletion? Djma12 19:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Biography -- Has this been written by the subject or someone closely involved with the subject? The author of the page owns the website that sells his book, for crying out loud. Djma12 16:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Just so I have sources for my claim of author profiteering...

• This was the conversation when I noted that the page was a WP:CITE violation. Notice the Saboem signs his posts with "DGaul."
• | This is the website owned by Saboem and used as the original source of the article. Notice the email address for buying the book is dgaul@integritymaa.com. Djma12 18:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Djma12 - Aagtbdfoua 02:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Bristol Evening Post: "Kick king Andy awaits the master", July 23, 2003

ONE of the founders of a Korean martial art is to visit Bristol to pass on his knowledge at an action-packed seminar. Grandmaster Kim Bok Man will conduct a series of classes for martial arts enthusiasts from around the country and beyond. The Tae Kwon Do expert, who is credited with founding the Korean sport, is one of the most important living names in martial arts circles. And organisers of the seminar believe Grandmaster Kim will attract people from as far afield as Romania, India, Nepal and the USA.

Check the edit history to read the rest of the article. ~ trialsanderrors 09:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for research Trialsanderrors, but is this an article per WP:BIO? This sounds like an advertisement for a seminar placed in a newspaper -- much different than an article about a person. Djma12 12:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment post-closure The article is part of the editorial content of BEP, not paid advertising. ~ trialsanderrors 20:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.