Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blood purity
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[edit] Blood purity
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100% original essay on blood purity in Harry Potter world. It is high time to clean all fancruft from abound in this kind of cruft. Any volunteers to start a WikiProject NOR-FAN? `'mikka 18:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete this and all its ilk. Maybe the Conservapedia
whackosindependently minded users have a point - what the hell does it say about Wikipedia when an article on a trivial aspect of a series of kids' books is twice the length of the article on Gospel of Luke? - iridescenti (talk to me!) 19:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)- That's not really a fair comparison; most of the actual information we have on the Gospel of Luke is located in other articles linked from the "Content" section. This makes sense because all three synoptic gospels have a majority of their material in common. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 21:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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- It says that people are more apt to write about and make good articles about current fiction rather fiction from 2,000 years ago. John Reaves (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Delete with extreme prejudice as pure fancruft OR. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 21:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Merge any cited portions into individual character articles. By the way, if this is deleted, it's going to leave a lot of dud redirects and redlinks. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 21:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:OR. We don't need the fancruft in the encyclopaedia. Parts that are cited can be transferred to another Harry Potter article. Ale_Jrbtalk 22:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Merge as per above; it's not exactly original research, though I do agree it's fancruft that may be unnecessary. A lot of work has gone into it, however, and it'd be a shame to see it wasted. Madman bum and angel 22:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep: Although poorly cited, it is certainly not 'fancruft': the issue is a central theme to Rowling's novels, and the article describes how and why that is so, and the features and effects of that in the novels. Moreover, I have to say I find the nominator's remarks, and those of User:Iridescenti, remarkably offensive: wikipedia has room for articles about novels, and claims that articles about the Bible should be longer than those on a novel, whilst good in principle, ignore the rather obvious point that fewer people write about the Bible than Harry Potter, and consequently the articles on subjects such as the former suffer as a result: Iridescenti, why don't you write more about the Gospel of Luke? Michael Sanders 23:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment What constitutes Original Research, taken from WP:OR:
(emphasis added) For information to be included here (on Wikipedia), it must be published elsewhere, in reliable sources, first. Just saying "I read it all in the books" doesn't cut it here. Wikipedia does have room for articles about novels but that doesn't mean we need an article about every idea in every novel. As this article doesn't seem to deal with the symbolism of the whole concept it isn't even an exceptionially good article about a novel. It appears to be mainly a collection of facts about the characters in the novels. Also, "fewer people write about the Bible"? I sure hope you are just referring to Wikipedia. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material
- Actually, as an contemporary absolute, it is likely that more people currently write about Harry Potter than about the Bible - there are fewer fan-forums discussing whether John the Divine will kill off his hero in his next book, for example. Naturally, more people have written about the Bible, and more people currently write worthwhile reading about it than about HP; nonetheless, wikipedia is written by everyone, and, in this world, the collective everyone is at present more interested in and capable of writing fluently about the relevance of purity of heritage in the works of JK Rowling than of St Paul. More to the point, you appear to be contradicting yourself above: OR is unpublished or synthesised material; yet you also claim that material from the novels (in this case, the very epitome of non-OR) is not appropriate. I suggest that you, and anyone who believes the article contains OR, sweep through it applying [citation needed] labels; show us what you believe is OR, since quite obviously an article about one of the central issues of the novels is extremely relevant to the coverage of the novels by this encyclopaedia. Michael Sanders 01:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- "unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material" This seems to be the majority of the article in question. While much of the article simply reports facts from the books: Lucius Malfoy is known to be a Death Eater. That is a fact that anyone can see by reading the respective book.When Bellatrix says "sons" it must be taken in context - in the scene her sister Narcissa weeps that her son Draco Malfoy has been given a terrible task by Voldemort. Bellatrix would likely make no distinction between a son or daughter, pressing either into Lord Voldemort's service. That would be considered original research by synthesis. This article seems to primarily base itself on primary sources (ie. the books). However, "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible. This means that we present verifiable accounts of views and arguments of reliable scholars, and not interpretations of primary source material by Wikipedians." Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 02:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, as an contemporary absolute, it is likely that more people currently write about Harry Potter than about the Bible - there are fewer fan-forums discussing whether John the Divine will kill off his hero in his next book, for example. Naturally, more people have written about the Bible, and more people currently write worthwhile reading about it than about HP; nonetheless, wikipedia is written by everyone, and, in this world, the collective everyone is at present more interested in and capable of writing fluently about the relevance of purity of heritage in the works of JK Rowling than of St Paul. More to the point, you appear to be contradicting yourself above: OR is unpublished or synthesised material; yet you also claim that material from the novels (in this case, the very epitome of non-OR) is not appropriate. I suggest that you, and anyone who believes the article contains OR, sweep through it applying [citation needed] labels; show us what you believe is OR, since quite obviously an article about one of the central issues of the novels is extremely relevant to the coverage of the novels by this encyclopaedia. Michael Sanders 01:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment What constitutes Original Research, taken from WP:OR:
- Keep and urge to tag with {{in-universe}} and trust the WP:WPHP to clean-up and cite. There's a difference, as Madman mentioned, between original research and what this article is. It is not, in the real world's definition, original research, but by Wikipedia's definition, it is, because, apparently, it is not referenced. Please note that not being referenced is not a reason to delete an article, if it can be referenced, and this article can be referenced through the use of various interviews with Rowling, the books, and a number of scholarly essays (I own a book with at least two, and there are probably loads more online). Consider that this article is not deletable material, but rather just in bad shape. Also, please do not go out of control with the fan-hatin' and the comparing-to-other-articles-which-you-deem-more-important, as usually happens in a Harry Potter AfD… just keep to Keep, Delete, or whatever, and leave the "überfancruftism" extremes out of it. :-) Just a friendly comment to keep things within reason here. Harry Potter has just a place as any in this encyclopedia, and sometimes articles can get a little carried away with text and a little lacking in references. We are trying to clean that up. Thank you. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 03:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep but rename to Blood purity (Harry Potter) to acknowledge that this article deals with the concept solely in the context of the H.P. universe. I recommend cutting everything from where the "Between both worlds" sections begin, since that is where the article begins to go off topic, reiterate other articles, or delve into original research. The first part of the article can and should be sourced. --Metropolitan90 03:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. dposse 03:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep this could absolutely be properly sourced; there are more than enough published sources that could be brought to bear to source this article. There are literally dozens of books about Harry Potter out there, even some academic books and articles, and I guarantee some of them will discuss this aspect of the books. Chubbles 06:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Particularly important in understanding and discussing this series. A prevalent theme throughout and needs a central article. User:Dimadick
- Keep - important concept of notable series. See WP:SS, WP:NOT#PAPER. - Peregrine Fisher 15:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep quite a significant cncept within Harry Potter (part of a "larger topic"), article contains some sourcing and Wikipedia is not paper. It's an encyclopaedic topic - live with it. Matthew 15:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment As it seems this is going to be kept, I must bring up another point that I said earlier but was buried in another comment. The reason that this appears to be a "fan article" is because it reads like one. It simply describes a concept used throughout the series, making no reference, that I can find at least, to the literaty significance of said concept. It gives a ton of facts about the stories (way too many) without delving into the symbolism behind the concept. It just doesn't "look" encyclopedic. It looks like the kind of thing I would expect to find on a Harry Potter fansite, not in an encyclopedia. As it stands, this isn't an article about a theme but about a simple idea used in the books. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 18:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I agree with above users that feel the article should be kept. I think that this is an important article, and contains a lot of quality information that is very relavant to the Harry Potter series. Perhaps some cleanup, and the addition of sources would make this article seem more encyclopedic. Greenboxed 22:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete with remorse Superbly well written article, great information... just all-around something I'd love to see here. WP:OR is the problem. I think perhaps that policy needs some revision so we don't lose great things like this, but perhaps this will be a great point for that (as opposed to WP:POINT). It should also at least be moved to "Blood Purity (Harry Potter)" as Royal Family blood purity is a real world kind of topic that this name could apply to. --Auto(talk / contribs) 02:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- Whatever happened to WP:WAF? Bringing that oft-forgotten guideline into focus, and latent application, this article would (in my opinion) fall apart. GracenotesT § 02:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
