Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avant garde metal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was: no consensus - 6 keep 4 delete, therefore kept. Tomer^talk 07:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Avant garde metal

This supposed genre isnt a recoginsed form of metal at all. It also conflicts with many of the other articles on metal genres. This article says things that can be read in varying articles, including Symphonic Metal, Black Metal and Progressive Metal. The bands listed are also a mish mash of other bands from other genres, much like other articles pertaining to metal that have been recently deleted. A search on google returned no coherent results as to why the article should be kept, and in years of working in the metal music scene, i have never heard of this genre outside of Wikipedia. This sounds, much alike Alternative Metal and Tech Metal, to be a made up genre by someone trying to group together, and promote, their favourite bands. ~~Leyasu

• Delete as essentially original research - no evidence of widespread usage. Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] (W) AfD? 13:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
• delete, WP:NOR. Next will be impressionist metal I assume?  RasputinAXP  _{talk contribs} 22:38, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep at least some of the bands listed are described on their own pages using this term. Others aren't, and still others are links to unrelated pages (e.g. Ephel Duath). —Wahoofive (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Another (continued) VFD case of those with no expertise on heavy metal.--Danteferno 02:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• None whatsoever? I'm sure you can support that with evidence. Here's a space for you: ____________________ - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 23:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. 9790 Google hits, all of which seem to point to the music genre. So, someone is supposed to see the term, come to Wikipedia for an explantion and find... nothing? That it doesn't exist, as far is Wikipedia is concerned? Look, I know that there are all thense names... Goth Metal, Black Metal, Thrash Metal, Nu Metal, Noise Metal, Heavy Metal, Death Metal, Doom Metal, Progressive Metal, Grindcore, and God knows what else. I don't have the expertise or interest to chose between them, and there MUST be a better way to work this out than deleting whole articles. I appreciate the nominator's interest and passion on the subject. I'm wondering, would the nominator perhaps consider putting together a project to sort through this? Herostratus 04:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep Another (continued) VFD case of those with no expertise on heavy metal - This is blatantly at me. Dante has an ongoing war of futition with me over the article Gothic Metal, and is reverting many changes, minor and major to articles because of this. He previously vandalised the Symphonic Metal page because it didnt suit his claims made on that discussion, and his whole vote is due to his flame war against me. Thus i ask his vote to be stricken. Also, i am trying to put a project together, using Wikipedia. I can also post an article listing many, many common and well known Metal Band archives, and non of them refer to genres like 'Circus Metal', 'Avantgarde Metal' or 'Alternative Metal'. Please leave a message on my talk page for comments about that article. Leyasu 19:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, seems fine. Stifle 15:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, there is nothing wrong with this page, it defines a genre that obviously exists, and is rapidly growing, particularly in Norway. A considerable amount of the bands listed even classify themselves as such, i.e. Aberrant Vascular, who call themselves "Operatic Avantgarde Metal", http://www.cc.puv.fi/~e0300228/av/biography.html. And in the Metal Encyclopedia, http://www.metal-archives.com/ there are 126 avantgarde metal bands. Karpsmom 15:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Let me remind you Metal Archives is one site, that is accepted by only some people. Main problem i pick up with this, is what it says. It says, that anything that isnt black metal, is automatically Avantgarde metal. The second problem is, all of the bands listed, bar exception of maybe 3, are listed on other articles already. The last problem with this article, is that it seems anything can be Avantgarde metal, if they do even the smallest, slightest thing that a band before them hasnt. If this article is kept, it needs to define what the genre is a whole lot better. It says Avantgarde Metal uses things that other bands havent done before, thats fine. Such as what? Where did it come from? How do you distinguish an Avantgarde band from a Progressive band that uses a Xylophone? If this article is kept, someone needs to seriously edit it and make it a lot more definative, a lot less confusing and vague, and make sure it doesnt contradict most other articles in the process. This isnt me being bitchy or spitefull, this is me simply trying to make people act on keeping articles and improving them, not just jumping onto 'Keep' whenever the article is nominated for deletion, yet not be willing to improve it so it doesnt keep getting nominated. Leyasu 21:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

you make a good point Leyasu, I think the article does a decent job of trying to seperate progressive metal from avantgarde metal, but there are still problems with it, would I, or someone else, be allowed to just re-work this page when it's in this pending deletion status? I would definitely be willing to do that then, because I think it's a worthwhile page and I'm willing to work if it means keeping it. To be fair though, other sites, like http://www.metalstorm.ee for instance, also have a group of bands for the genre. Karpsmom 1:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

As Wikipedia states, you can edit, or merge a page all you want. However, if the article is deleted, your editations will be lost. I think thats what it says =x. If you intend to work the page, do so, this may alter the vote of me and other people, if the article is then to make more sense. Leyasu 07:29, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Delete-Ive never heard of it i looked it up, if it is a genre its verry small with only a few bands, like hate metal (other than obviously metal that contains hate lyrics)

I fail to see how not knowing of something is cause to delete it. Anybody who knows about avantgarde metal knows about the many bands in the genre.

Its not known because its a Pet Name thats why. Its not an accepted genre of metal. Its a name given to any band that does something new. I will kindly point out All Gothic Metal, All Symphonic Metal, All Power Metal, All Black Metal, etc etc, was called Avantgarde Metal, when bands first created genres. This isnt a genre, its a pet name for any band that does something new or different, that a band before them hasnt done. Leyasu 07:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. -- JJay 23:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.