Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armenian Genocide(2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Speedy Keep This is more a featured article candidate than a candidate for deletion. Obviously notable topic.Capitalistroadster 01:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian_genocide

This article, which does not reflect the historical truths that are regarded as facts by hundreds of hisotrians worldwide, should not be kept as a part of Wikipedia. The article, which now stands as the sole representation of the Armenian thesis for the Armenian Allegations, is not allowed to be changed to reflect both opinions on the issue equally. Many users supporting the Armenian thesis constantly delete the parts written by supporters of the anti-thesis. In other words, the article is only a propaganda material. As the debate on this issue continues, it will probably be impossible to stop both sides of the issue from creating an article that truly reflects the past, but not the views of politicians or terrorist organizations. Therefore this article should be deleted; however, instead of it a page with only "REFERENCES" as books, websites, etc. could stay so that both sides arguments would be presented and substantiated ideas could be in place for researchers on the issue. Kayaakyuz 18:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete. We don't want to read Armenian propaganda only. Either allow the article to be edited and stop deleting the opposing views to your allegations or delete this article. Enough for the propaganda that you have been doing with our donations to Wikipedia! --Aycan 85.108.27.212 19:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Supersonic speedy keep. Edit conflicts over content, or article titles, should not be handled with VfD's. Obviously Wikipedia needs an article on this event. Please handle your concerns using the many appropriate conflict resolution mechanisms, AfD is not one of them. -- Stbalbach 21:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete. There are a growing number of historians that see the events as an Armenian exile which was a natural defense mechanism of the Ottoman state against an Armenian rebellion. It was proved with the latest documents from the family of Talat paşa (so called Turkish hitler) in the Turkish newspaper of Hürriyet which clearly shows it was a relocation inside of Turkey and unlike the article says "An exile to concentration camps in the deserts of Syria". It is now known that the poor,children and elderly werent a part of the exile and the intention was just the stop a rebellion against a state in war. These are the reasons this article can NOT be considered as a Genocide. (Metb82 21:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

• Speedy delete. How dare such an article exist, it should be deleted without even voting to do so. Fad (ix) 21:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete Agree with Fadix.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 05:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• • sorry Fadix, we dont want to hurt the reason of your existence which is the genocide but we have a pride too. You cant just make up the past and support it with made up references like you always do. The truth can only be enlightened by the ottoman and armenian archives but since you dont accept to discuss the events unless the borders are opened, i dont see a future in this who made the issue into a political one without caring the casulties. All i can see is that you are betraying your heritage here. (Metb82 21:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC))
    • You are right, I'm a true man now, I voted delete and will be creating the Turkish genocide article discribing the extermination of the Turks from the heartland of Anatolia by the Armenians and how the Anatolian Armenians took a spaceship vaccating the whole place to then blame the Turks and hide the true genocide. I've seen the light now, ben not a salak anymore. Like I said, this article should get a speedy delete. Fad (ix) 22:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Perhaps it is your pride that is precluding you from seeing that the Genocide, contrary to the claims presented here and contrary to the constant promulgations made by the Turkish government, is very well substantiated and evidenced. If the article's quality is being hampered, we can fix that. But if you want to delete this because it stains your pride then that cannot be helped. Germany's history is stained by the works of Adolf Hitler but their country is admired worldwide as Germany has acknowledged the Holocaust.To give equal weight to the Turkish government's version of the Genocide in the article will be tantamount to having the neo-Nazis' views presented in the Holocaust article. There are a growing number of historians that see the events as an Armenian exile which was a natural defense mechanism of the Ottoman state against an Armenian rebellion. Actually it is the exact contrary. More and more historians, Turks especially, are recognizing the events of 1915 as acts constituting the Genocide and each year, a new country, state, or organization recognizes the killings in parallel to the United Nation's definition of Genocide. Please, if anything is happening, its that the Turkish government is being squeezed into a tight, insular bubble where their version is accepted only by themselves and more or less Azerbaijan.--MarshallBagramyan 22:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

There are a growing number of historians that see the events as an Armenian exile which was a natural defense mechanism of the Ottoman state against an Armenian rebellion. Actually it is the exact contrary. More and more historians, Turks especially, are recognizing the events of 1915 as acts constituting the Genocide and each year, a new country, state, or organization recognizes the killings in parallel to the United Nation's definition of Genocide. Then, you can show us how many of Turkish historians see event as a genocide and who they are. Let me guess, Orhan Pamuk. First, he is not a historian and second after a while he said that I was used as a pupet by many organization. --TuzsuzDeliBekir 05:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

No, not just Pamuk. Although its rather ironic as how favorably he was viewed by people in Turkey prior to his comments on the Genocide only to be ridiculously charged with "publically denigrating the Turkish identity". However this includes Taner Akcam, Mujgan Arpat, Halil Berktay, Murat Belge, Turkish Human Rights activist Nese Ozan, Ragip Zarakolu whose editorial office in 1994 was bombed by some Turkish fanatics only after he was shouted down and equated to the rank of a "traitor" of the Turkish people. And don't forget Turkey's most best and most famous poet, Nâzim Hikmet, who also acknowledged the Genocide. I can go on UnSalty/UnFlavored one if you want. --MarshallBagramyan 15:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Nâzim Hikmet, who also acknowledged the Genocide may I ask for sources of it ? I am a fun of him, but I haven't seen such acknowledge. Additionally, I have to remind you about More and more historians. The list you show doesn't contain more and more historian. Am I right ? Some of the human activity volunteer were claimed as supporter of PKK. Do you know that ? Then, we cannot say humanistic for them. --TuzsuzDeliBekir 19:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Look man, i have a lot of armenian friends in Istanbul, and believe me, if this is something that is kept out of our eyes or anything, i wouldnt be talking like this. But i have seen the Ottoman documents by Talat paşa and many others about it. Its not something the turkish government is imposing me. Believe me i agree with the suffering and pain the Ottomans gave to Armenians and even if i could, i would turn back time without thinking about my life about it. But i think if we did that, i wouldnt be here with you writing these things coz there wouldnt be a republic of Turkey. Dont get me wrong we are with you in each pain that you suffered, but putting it as a genocide would not be true as i saw the last documents about the issue. (Metb82 22:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

And having friends who are Armenian translates to exactly what? And since when were Ottoman documents to be regarded as solid proof? The Ottoman Empire's archives were up until the early 1990s closed and allowed to be seen by a select few. If anything, the articles pertaining to the Genocide were purged from the archives. If all the other countries' archives attest to the fact that there was an ongoing act of extermination in 1915 and only the Ottoman government's archives said otherwise, wouldn't you regard this discrepancy with just a little suspicion?--MarshallBagramyan 22:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

it is actually not the ottoman archives, the documents that the family of Talat paşa keeps.they were just released 3 days ago and lets discuss after it spreads around the world. (Metb82 22:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

And I'm going to believe Talaat because? This man fled from Turkey before the war ended and resided in Germany while the Ottoman Army trials were condemning him and other leaders to death because of their crimes. Unlike Adolf Hitler, who was so frank and shameless on his treatment of the Jews and other races, Talaat was simply attempting to exonerate himself from any wrongdoing just as Saddam Hussein is attempting doing do so, going so far as to justify their actions. Don't kid yourself, his correspondence contribute little into the Turkish argument and only help solidify the genocide argument. --MarshallBagramyan 22:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

actually i didnt know the Ottoman Army trials were condemning him. Anyway i said said, we are not a nation that will try to free from the reality just to keep our own self-interest. All i understand is that it is easier for the West to see us like dishonest criminals because we are muslims and mostly forgetting that we are humans too. Believe me if something like this is real, we will be the first people to help the families of the victims and i am really sure about this. Actually i dont see the same reaction with Hungarians which are a Turkic tribe but only with Turks.. Could the reason be that we are muslims instead of Christians? (Metb82 23:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

• Delete and Reshape: I am against articles whose titles start by pronouncing a verdict. Working on Armenian notables deported from the Ottoman capital in 1915. --Cretanforever 18:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Other than sometimes in Turkey, there is almost no denial of this genocide. This nomination is a sad event. gidonb 22:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: I know that this issue is a hot potato for some people but, dear gentlemen, you should learn that NPOV is not always your POV. Behemoth 22:16 , 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep. Thinking the article is POV is not an argument for deletion, and the article certainly matches none of the speedy deletion requirements. If you think it's POV edit it. If you think certain users are POV pushing, use the systems in place for dealing with that. Do not delete a perfectly valid article because of POV issues. Fightindaman 22:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep A sourced historical event that costed the lives of 1.5 million people, surely has a place in wikipedia. Fortunately, Wikipedia is not the official website of the Turkish government, and this is why we can all talk about the Armenian Genocide. (Honestly, i was shocked when i saw that this article is nominated for deletion!) --Hectorian 01:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, and edit wisely per WP:CITE Miskin 00:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete of course! lol I suggest we also get rid of the so called Holocaust article. Wikipedia does not need these topics that cause so many disputes :)--Eupator 22:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.