Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Argao Central Elementary School

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 08:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argao Central Elementary School

Argao Central Elementary School (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Notability not asserted for this obscure schoolhouse in the Phillipines. Only 13 unique G-hits, most of which are blogs, Friendster profiles and wikipedia mirrors. wikipediatrix 01:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Unverifiable. MER-C 04:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment, there's a variety of schools that lack web presence. When it's in the Philipines it's probably not uncommon for that to happen. Has anyone tried applying notability rules from WP:SCHOOLS instead of going by Google presence alone? There's bound to be paper references. - Mgm|^(talk) 13:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment That seems as a basic idea to be reasonable to look for such sources, however WP:SCHOOLS does not have a consensus and seems unlikely to develop a consensus as a guideline in the forseeable future. JoshuaZ 02:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, does not seem notable. If sources are cited, then it shall be a keep. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 15:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - In it's current form. If it can be expanded, keep it. --Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 16:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - I am allowing myself to be influenced by a personal bias here. School articles always attract a lot of vandalism. In my opinion, the less we have the better. LittleOldMe 16:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. "The school has been or was in existence for over 50 years, due to the great likelihood of—but greater difficulty of uncovering—non-trivial historical coverage of that school" from WP:SCHOOLS. I think this is notable. --SonicChao ^talk 22:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Sources and material have been added to article about school, its programs and alumni. Based on the unique program the school is undertaking, the fact that it's over 75 years old and that a recent former Chief Justice of the Philippines is a rather distinguished alumnus, I think the article satisfies WP:SCHOOL. As the article has been expanded, sources have been added and there is no reason to suspect that this article will be a target for vandalism, I hope that others will reconsider their vote. Alansohn 23:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Per WP:SCHOOLS and the fact that a former member of the Supreme Court of the Philippines was educated there, which makes it notable. Movementarian (Talk) 03:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, 50 years is an arbitrary cutoff point and isn't really considered very old in most parts of the world outside the United States. (Radiant) 15:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep, practically all schools are notable because by their very nature, they have a reason for existing that differentiates them from other schools, hence they have notability for filling that niche. This is clearly notable for being the primary (only?) elementary school of Argao, for being a historic school started in 1928, for being one of only seven schools chosen to represent the region for the UNESCO pilot project, etc., etc. Highfructosecornsyrup 18:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment To your first sentence- absolutely not. The claim that "practically all schools are notable because by their very nature, they have a reason for existing that differentiates them from other schools, hence they have notability for filling that niche" is simply a long drawn out way of asserting that all schools are notable. The "niche" that these schools fill is no different than the different niches that corner stores and individual firehouses fulfill. JoshuaZ 02:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think individual firehouses should be automatically notable, actually. All towns are notable, and firehouses and schools are integrally connected to their town's governments in a way that banks and stores obviously aren't. But even without petitioning for a blanket notability for schools, it's still true that most schools can make a claim of notability, except maybe brand new schools that haven't existed long enough yet to generate verifiable sources for itself. Highfructosecornsyrup 03:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I think we all agree that all schools, firehouses and corner stores are "notable", but this particular school is apparently one of just seven schools participating in a Unesco pilot program on health issues in a third world nation - what could be more significant than that? The fact that a supreme court chief justice started his journey here is just icing on the cake. In short, qualifies for inclusion (and we do not decide on the basis of google hits). --JJay 02:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete No we do not all agree. Schools are NOT notable by default, and notable alumni does not make a school inherently notable either. Edgecution 21:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you please remain on point by formulating an opinion that directly addresses Argao Central Elementary School. --JJay 22:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe what Edgecution means is that this school is not notable since schools are not inherently notable and he finds the only notability claim in this case, the presence of a single notable alumnus, does not persuade him to consider the school to be notable. JoshuaZ 02:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

But that's NOT the only notability claim. Highfructosecornsyrup 14:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a clue what you mean by the "only notability claim" nor could I define "notability claim". However, to set the record straight, this 80-year old school is part of a pilot Unesco program and has educated, among others, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. That is what we are here to discuss, not philosophical blah blah about firehouses, corner stores or other inherently unrelated issues such as opinions on the inherent worth of this or that. Apparently the inherent sarcasm in the first part of my initial comment was not evident; I hope it is now. --JJay 03:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per the sugar guy - I am getting sick of these "fundies" who believe that their view of notability etc is the be all and end all of Wp. Let them go and start their own Nonpedia with just one article where they can endless fight their little wars in the Talk page. (IMHO) Albatross2147 22:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The problem with his argument though is that he says all schools are notable. That is not true and has never been agreed here at WP. So schools have to show WHY they are notable. Edgecution 22:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Have we not shown more than one reason why Argao Central Elementary School is notable? Highfructosecornsyrup 14:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep per Alan. The presence of a program only in a small number of schools together with a very notable alumn seems to push it arguably over the edge. JoshuaZ 02:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Per the argument (noted above by Edgecution) that schools are in and of themselves inherently unnotable and don't warrant encyclopedic treatment. Nothing about this mentioned above suggests one iota of notability. Eusebeus 11:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

But it IS Wikipedia policy that all towns are notable, even if they're the tiniest spot-in-the-road village. Therefore, it stands to reason that any given town's municipal functions are notable: public schools, courthouses, government buildings, firehouses, etc. This would not include banks, hospitals, stores, businesses, etc. which are not municipal functions. Highfructosecornsyrup 14:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, as non-notable. The UNESCO program can be covered adequately in the UNESCO article. Fairsing 19:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Are you really implying that all Unesco programs be covered in the Unesco article? If so, what is your suggestion for the many articles found in Category:UNESCO? --JJay 21:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Either the FRESH program can be covered in the UNESCO article, or if it is sufficently notable itself, the FRESH program might justify its own article, in which case such an article would belong in Category:UNESCO or possibly also Category:World Health Organization. None of that really has anything to do with the question of whether this particular school is notable, which is the question at hand here in this AFD discussion. Fairsing 01:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That is one way of looking at it. The other is that the school's participation in the program should be covered in an article on the school. As far as I'm concerned, that participation along with the other factors goes a long way to justifying this article's inclusion at wikipedia, which has everything to do with this AfD discussion. --JJay 01:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - just another non-notable school. DB (talk) 21:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep; The age of the school is irrelevent and cannot make it notable, but being one of seven schools to be involved with FRESH and the notable alumnus does. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 15:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What Wikipedia guideline or policy do you cite for your claim that "The age of the school is irrelevent and cannot make it notable"? Show me where it says that. Highfructosecornsyrup 15:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you show me where there has ever been a clear consensus that because something is old, it is notable? Please show me where it says that. Nothing gets a free ride as far as notability goes, it is something that must be demonstrated, and as far as I am concerned, the age of a school does not have any say at all on how notable it is. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 15:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

To illustrate my point more concisely, consider any university of considerable age such as the University of Oxford- it is one of the most notable schools still in existence, but the notability is a virtue imbued by the many great people that have done work there, and its many and broad contributions to culture, society, and academic life. That it is the oldest university still around is incidental to its notability; that is to say that it's a neat fact but it is only trappings and not to do with substance at all; that is how I justify saying that the age of a school can only ever be incidental to its notability. To stress, old schools very often are notable, but that is only by way of their achievements and staff's characteristics. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 15:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia currently has no set guideline or policy on this matter, so we're arguing in a vacuum anyway. At least we're both saying "Keep". Highfructosecornsyrup 16:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. NN. WMMartin 17:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Alansohn.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• keep please school has historic notability with being almost 80 years old and notable alumni too Yuckfoo 00:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.