Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arab Malays

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. --Fang Aili ^talk 03:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arab Malays

Arab Malays (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

This article consists of original research using a definition of Malay which is extremely broad, which has been shown in Talk:Malays (ethnic group) to be false and misleading. MichaelJLowe 00:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• delete as per Nom. (MichaelJLowe 01:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC))
• Delete per nom., per Turkish, European Malays. Ganfon 01:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per Turish Malays reason.--155.144.251.120 01:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No WP:RS, hence no WP:V. --Shirahadasha 03:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete These kind of articles are getting out of hand. --Chris S. 04:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep or redirect and expand

I have observed that there are categories such as Category:Eurasians and so on--categories and articles of people like this describing people of mixed descent. Malays with Arab, European and other racial blood lines are abundant throughout Malaysia and Singapore, and Arab-Malays means people of these two races stated above.

People with Arab bloodlines, and in fact there are a significant number of Malays with Arab bloodlines (see Category:Arab-Malays, of which many have made it up to the top ranks of society. Also, check out the article of Arab Singaporeans. Arab contribution to the SE Asian region is very significant. This fact should not be belittled.

Furthermore, much of the content here are provided with proper references. And unless there are policies and guidelines that explicitely point that such articles are prohibited, I see that there is no point in deleting these categories. I have noted that all of you people are of American or European background who lacked the understanding of Southeast-asian topics. Please read more about the Arab history of Singapore and Malaysia before reconsidering their notability. I believe that the Arab and European prescence in Malay Muslim SE Asia is as notable, if not more that the notability of Category:British Hongkongers and the Japanese Halvsie. Why didn't you all vote for deletion of that cat then? If you still think so otheriwse, please explain why. All of you might also want to take a look of my opinion at User talk:Fantastic4boy.

Still, I feel that it's best to ask the opinions of the Malays themselves. Being a non-Malay myself, I think it is the best that such issues are up to the Malays to decide. Mr Tan 06:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr Tan, who exactly are the Malay? There are a multitude of varying definitions ranging from everyone in South East Asia (the definition used by these articles), to more precise and academically correct definitions. The use of term Malay as a race was a misnomer first proposed in British colonial times. Its use is no longer relevant and it is factually incorrect. As others have mentioned above, any ethnic group articles which are created need to be supported by reliable sources. When one racial or ethnic group breeds with another this does not necessarily constitute a new ethnic group. Please supply reliable sources that the ethnic group Arab Malays exists and is notable. (MichaelJLowe 07:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

Look up books on the general history of Singapore/Malaysia, and take note of notabel Arab-Malay families like Alsagoff, Alkaff and so on. Some books include [1]. Check the internet, or your library for the books on the history of these two countries. Lee Kuan Yew's biography also noted that Syed Jaafar Albar is part Arab. I can't list out all now, and use your mental flexibility to find these sources, everyone involved. I have given the starting hints. (See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/European Malays. Mr Tan 07:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat again. These articles are about ethnic groups, as defined ethnologists. Just because one ethnic groups mates with another does not mean a new independent ethnic group is formed. Please supply reliable sources that the ethnic group Arab Malays exists and is notable. Wikipedia does not allow original research. (MichaelJLowe 07:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

BTW, I put the term "arab malays" -wikipedia into Google and got 45 hits. This article certainly seems like original research to me. (MichaelJLowe 08:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

For your information, this article is edited in parallel to Eurasian (mixed ancestry), Kristang people and Halvise. Both Eurasian and Arab-Malays are not ethnic groups. There is no rule that we cannot write about articles of terminologies on interracial affairs. And if you want to know the notablity of arab malays in SE Asia, check out the Syed Alsagoff family in Singapore (Check the History of Singapore).

Nor is there any original research. The sources are directly found in Arab malays, [2]. The references at Arab Singaporeans are equally reliable sources. Also, there is no need for you to be so rigid as to type in the exact terminology of "Arab malays". On the contary, there are also a lot of articles on this topic--eg:[3].

Or, otherwise, we could perhaps redirect this article to Arabs in Southeast Asia, Arabs in Malaysia or something like that. I can accept something like Category:British Hongkongers instead of category:Arab-Malays where all notable of part or full British decsnet are being classified into here, or Arab Singaporeans which people of part or full arab descent are being discussed.

However, I must note that deleting content totally like this is destabilising the consistency and all of you are contesting the validity of articles on interracial affairs like Macanese people, Halvsie and so on. I can't get it, if you mean that these content are really deleted. Mr Tan 15:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I would have less of an issue with an article called Arab Malaysians given its more precise focus. However, the article would still have to pass notability requirements. If it doesn't, then any notable information could be rolled into a more general article such as a list of notable Malay people, or notable Malaysian people [[MichaelJLowe 20:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)]]

• Strong Delete - per other X Malays (see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_January_19#Malay_diaspora that I assume there will be similar article like this). This is not a notable reason, only to state one person get married with a Malay person and you then created WP article for that? What about Turkish Malays married with Arab Malays, would you want to create Turkish Arab Malays Malays article? There are thousands of combination if you want to create this similar article. Come on! Please be reasonable. Theses X Malays articles are baseless. They are not supported by academic terminologies. Tell me if there are reliable sources from anthropologists saying these kind of race definition. — Indon (reply) — 09:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, per Turkish Malays reason. Terence Ong 11:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete OR and unsourced definition of an ethnic group.-- danntm ^T _C 14:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom SatuSuro 15:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:N Topar 17:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep [change to Delete as per nom, unless adequate sourcing could be provided] although the article needs beefing up in sources, it's a good start. All this business about racial groups and intermarriage is balderdash. Think culture and behavior and whether certain people perceive themselves as part of a group — those are the criteria for whether the group exists or not. This article shows that this distinct ethnic group exists and has particular characteristics. That is an important contribution to understanding Malaysia and therefore an important addition to Wikipedia. The "Malay" part of this refers to the nation or state in which this cultural group is located. Anyone supporting deletion of this article should support deletion of Italian American and Irish American (which would be ridiculous because lack of knowledge about these ethnic groups would hobble anyone's understanding of the modern U.S.) or be able to say what the difference is. This article needs improvement with more information and sourcing, but it's the strongest of the three ethnic Malay articles now under discussion for deletion. ShivaDaDestroyer 20:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - thank you for your comments ShivaDaDestroy. I salute you for joining Wikipedia and directly goes to AfD at your first edits. However, you are wrong to say that the "Malay" part refers to nation/state. It clearly states you don't understand about the issue. — Indon (reply) — 20:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment You seem to be confused - Malay does not equal Malaysian. Instead of your analogy of Italian American, a better analogy would be Eskimo-Africans. It is of course nonsense to have such non-notable articles. (MichaelJLowe 20:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

Response Thanks for your patience, Indon and Michael. I didn't read the discussion carefully enough. Apologies. ShivaDaDestroyer 22:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.