Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anthony John Bailey

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Most keep arguments seem to be from the same person. Proto ► 12:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anthony John Bailey

Anthony John Bailey (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)
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Delete:This article appears to be a piece of self promotion overwhelmingly edited by a single anonymous user who I suspect to be none other than Anthony John Bailey himself. The Boy that time forgot 23:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Delete: Vanity page: I read most of the articles linked to. The articles were either trivial or biased. The other links were to web sites that this guy owns. That's about as biased as it comes. It's possible that he's notable, but this article definitely looks like a PR piece to me. Also, "Eligo International" turns up very few references elsewhere, and the first few pages worth of links on Google are NN sources: phone books and things like Craigslist. There's virtually no verifiable information on the guy on the Internet. Isn't this odd for "one of the most decorated living Britons"? -- TomXP411[Talk]

Delete Was going to say to keep until I saw that the biggest contributor to the page - Eligo - is also the name for the company founded by Athony John Bailey. I will concur that is mostly appears to be a vanity page. --Ozgod 06:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep As one of the significant contributors to this article, I principally used the respected and newly published Debretts People of Today of 2007 to find most of this information including all the foreign honours and positions. I also used various online websites to back it up including as many non Bailey sites as possible ie medias. Bailey is an interesting person for me by the nature of his very wide activities, growing political influence and the fact that he has given money to a major UK political party during the ongoing political crisis here with the UK Government. I therefore oppose deletion but if you want me to re-edit it I can or you can. -- Seisal[Talk]— Seisal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

KeepIm not one and the same person. I have though used text seen on the Eligo site although have put enough references to back it up I think. I think there is enough merit in keeping it but do tell me some suggestions to edit as I am still new at this. -- 81.149.151.110 [Talk]— 81.149.151.110 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Thank you for noting that. Please leave it up to the closing admin to determine that though! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Here is his entry in Debretts People of Today 2007 which has obviously been checked by their editors and is publically available. No vanity!. BAILEY, Anthony John James; b 13 January 1970, London; Educ Douay Martyrs Sch Ickenham, Univ of Veliko Turnovo Bulgaria (Dip), Univ of Sofia Bulgaria (Dip), Budapest Univ of Economics (Dip), Univ of London (BA); Career special projects exec Burson-Marsteller UK then account dir then sr account dir Burson-Marsteller Int 1991-95, prog mangr mgmnt communications IBM EMEA 1995-96, sr cnsllr Manning, Selvage and Lee Ltd UK 1996, chm Eligo Int Ltd 1997-, special counsel to HRH Prince Khalid Al-Faisal 1998-, chm Painting and Patronage Saudi Arabia/UK 1999-, special advsr Bd of Tstees Arab Thought Fndn Lebanon 2002-05; sr policy advsr Bd of Dirs Foreign Policy Centre 2006-; patron All Pty Parly Pro-Life Gp 2002-, advsr to Policy Unit 10 Downing St, memb London Challenge Ministerial Advsy Gp DfES 2003-; dir Maimonides Fndn 2002-, dir Forthspring Inter-Community Centre Belfast 2003-, memb Advsy Bd Three Faiths Forum UK 2003-, tstee Path to Peace in the Balkans Fndn 2003-, bd dir and tstee United Church Learning Tst 2004-, memb Advsy Cncl Fndn of Reconciliation in the ME UK 2006-, dep pres Venice Fndn Switzerland; memb Ctee Passage Homeless Centre; dep sec-gen and vice pres Gold Mercury Award 2002-; govr Douay Martys Sch Ickenham 2005-; offr Br-Saudi Soc 2002-, tstee Br-Moroccan Soc (hon sec 2003-); memb: RIIA, Royal Soc of Asian Affrs, Loriner's Co, Lab Finance and Industry Gp Soho House, Assoc of Papal Knights (in both GB and I), Catholic Union of GB, European Movement, Br-Italian Soc, Anglo-Portugese Soc, Br-Syrian Soc, Br-Lebanese Soc, Br-Nepal Soc, Anglo-Yemen Soc, Bahrain Soc, CAABU, High Cncl for Foreign Direct Investment of Portugal 2006-; fndn govr RC Archdiocese of Westminster 2005-, memb Friends of Westminster Cathedral, chm St George's Chapel Appeal Westminster Cathedral; ambass-at-large Repub of The Gambia; Medal of Merit and Co-operation Luso-Arab Inst for Co-operation 2006; Freeman City of London 2004; MIPRA 1996, MCIPR 1997, FRSA 2004; First Class Syrian Order of Outstanding Merit 2001, Knight Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre (Holy See/Vatican City) 2001, Knight Cdr with Star Constantinian Order of St George (Grand Magistral Delegate for Inter-Church and Inter-Faith Relations 2006-), Knight Cdr Royal Order of St Francis I (Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicilies) 2001, Knight Cdr Royal Order of Al-Alaoui (Morocco) 2004, Knight Cdr Pontifical Order of Pope Saint Sylvester (Holy See/Vatican City) 2004, Grand Cross Nat Order of Juan Mora Fernandez (Costa Rica) 2004, Grand Offr Order of Manuel Amador Guerrero (Panama) 2004, Knight Cdr Nat Order of the Cedar (Lebanon) 2004, First Class Order of 22 May Unification (Yemen) 2004, Knight Cdr with Star Order of Infante Dom Henrique (Portugal) 2005; Clubs Travellers'; Style- Anthony Bailey, Esq, KCSS; Contact Eligo International Limited, 12 Queens Gate Gardens, London SW7 5LY (Tel 020 7591 0619, fax 020 7225 5279, e-mail abailey@eligo.net) -- Seisal[Talk]
    • Comment: People of Today is written by the subjects of the articles and is not checked. - Kittybrewster 00:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment: Kittybrewster is absolutely correct. User:Seisal confuses Debretts with Who's Who which is checked. David Lauder 09:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
    • From Debrett's own web site: "All biographical information is provided by the entrants themselves to ensure its reliability." https://people.debretts.co.uk/login.jsp -- TomXP411[Talk] 15:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - While cited, I believe that it is a vanity article that is written in a very POV manner. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Bailey appears to be notable. The article needs a cleanup badly, however. Kyaa the Catlord 19:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per Kyaa the Catlord. TheQuandry 20:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, shameless self promotion, notability cannot be judged on this article -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - vanity page, the article seems to imply that others are more at fault than him in the recent cash-for-honours scandal, which isn't necessarily what the press are saying.

Probably easier to start again. Addhoc 22:56, 16 February 2007(UTC):

  • Delete - non-notable's vanity page. - Kittybrewster 00:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - the term "galloping arrogance" springs to mind...--Couter-revolutionary 01:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete:most blatant vanity I've ever seen. Bet much of it would not stand up to close scrutiny. Also, I seem to recall that he and John Kennedy (formerly Gvosdenovich) were arrested about 7 or 8 years ago on charges of Fraud brought by one of the Tunisian Royal Family. Shady character. The Labour Party deserves him. One can't help wondering if he has told his "fiancée" that he supports socialists. David Lauder 09:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
...my thoughts entirely...--Couter-revolutionary 10:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - I brought this up last week at the admin noticeboard, the whole thing is suspicious and self promoting. Along with the article the high res. publicity shot should be deleted. Also worth throwing into this AfD is Painting & Patronage an "artistic exchange programme" - which is actually nothing more than a PR event for the Saudi clients of his PR firm Eligo - it too reads like a PR firm press release. SFC9394 09:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete spammy bio. If he is truly notable, let someone neutral write it. The article as it is now is fluff. SchmuckyTheCat 16:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Have edited the biography greatly to reflect all your valuable comments. I'm still new at this! -- Seisal[Talk]
Please only say keep or delete once per discussion.--Isotope23 17:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment Erm, how often do you want to take a vote still? ~~ Phoe talk 19:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC) ~~
Editing the bio doesn't change the fact that, to all accounts, he's a non-notable. No reliable references seem to be linked to from this article. -- TomXP411[Talk] 02:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
After a little more research, I've turned up some articles about him or his companies... but the way they all talk about him makes my skin crawl. It keeps triggering that "too good to be true" flag in my head. Also, his web sites (Elios, and the art foundation) don't have ANY links from other web sites. That seems odd for organizations that claim to be so important or influential. On the other hand, one article I found said that his fee for some arbitration was over £1 million. When you run in those circles, you don't exactly need Google for clients to find you. If the article is kept, there's got to be a way to make it sound less like a résumé and more like an encyclopedia entry. Perhaps, instead of listing all of his awards, charities, etc, we could shorten it and say "works with several organizations, the most notable are:" and "has received several awards, such as..." -- TomXP411[Talk] 06:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, I think that the notability of the subject of this article is of less importance than the potential breach of WP:Auto, WP:COI and WP:NPOV.The Boy that time forgot 10:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. They are all relevant. It has been greatly improved but is still a speedy delete. - Kittybrewster 10:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and CLEAN UP. the notability of the subject is not questionable but the article is a mess. --RebSkii 19:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Investigate & reduce to a stub People in high positions do have links on Google, at least with respect to the organizations they are associated with. I notice that every one of the affiliations listed is one that is not available online. Almost every one of the awards listed will have a list of holders of some sort, and I think in these circumstances they have to be checked. We may find ourselves having made a mistake here. The proposed course of action will be to stubbify the article, and add data only as it becomes available. Has anyone checked the Times article, which is not available to me--the link is just to the Times website. It would at least demonstrate the existence of a person. by that name. The Evening Standard may or may not be a RS in general, but the material here is from the society gossip column, and sounds very much as if he wrote the press release. He claims one single million pound fee, but it does not say for what. Read the article sentence by sentence. The Painting & Patronage web site, designed by his company, mentions him only in passing as a member of the advisory board. The Foreign Policy Centre seems to have the nest documentation for him--a brief bio. at http://fpc.org.uk/search/anthony+bailey/
  • Comment I have looked again at the homepage of the Painting and Patronage site and in the first paragraph it lists him as the founding chairman together with the Saudi Arabian Prince and in the advisory boards of each initiative as the Chairman of the Advisory Board which consists of very many notables including foreign and other ministers. -- Seisal[Talk]

Eligo, his company, also makes charitable contributions and boasts about them on its website. Any company doing this makes very sure they get newspaper coverage. (And they don't just do diplomacy; they also do website design) The company site claims that he was Anthony Bailey appointed to the UK’s Ministerial Task Force on Gifted and Talented Education in Jan 07. Such appointments are announced. It isn't in google. The best positive evidence so far is photographs on the Eligo web site, which seem to show him with world leaders. Have we ever accepted that as a RS for N? DGG 04:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if part of the problem is that most of his contributions are in the Middle East. The media in these countries won't be accessible to english-language search engines. This is so frustrating, because this guy may indeed be notable, but I can't prove it. I also can't prove that he's not. What I do know is that he is listed as an owner or major contributer to nearly every site that talks about him. -- TomXP411[Talk] 05:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep: and see [3] and [4] and [5] and [6] and [7] and [8], which corroborate his noteworthiness, and his extensive reputation in certain circles. Tricky 09:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes - he seems OK at self-promotion. That is his job. Still nn. - Kittybrewster 10:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
All of those sources bar one are about some aristocratic religious club - I don't see wikipedia's notability guidelines indicating that as a cast iron reason to have article space. The other references simply indicates he owns a PR firm - again not any sort of reason for notability. The phrase "self publicist" jumps out at me with this case - and when phrases like that are about I am very careful about fuelling ego's - especially when they own a PR firm and there is a very high probability that the editors involved in creating this article have a COI. SFC9394 13:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep I have looked further into this and find the following additional links which reinforce his notability:

    • Re: Three Faith Forum he is a joint signature with its founders at [9].
    • Bailey's Syrian award is listed on the Women-in-Business Syrian conference site at [10].
    • Bailey's own Eligo website shows pictures of him actually receiving his awards from the King of Morocco, Presidents of Lebanon, Yemen, Costa Rica and Panama and the reasons for the awards [11].
    • His Papal knighthoods ie KCSS and KHS are listed on the Association of Papal Knights in Great Britain official website at [12].
    • His Portuguese knighthood is shown alongside a picture with the Portuguese Foreign Minister at [13] and also referred to in The Independent Newspaper (together with his Moroccan and Vatican gongs) at [14] -- and also if you search for him at Portugal News at [15].
    • His Labour Party roles and notability are referred to in and have reference to his appointment to ministeral bodies in a letter by the Chairman of the Labour Party Hazel Blears MP which is downloadable at [16].
    • His role as Patron of the All-Party Pro-life Group is listed on their website at [17].
    • His role with the Foundation of Reconciliation in the Middle East is listed on their website at [18].
    • Bailey's Moroccan award was given also to the Warden of the St Antony's College Oxford and is listed at this following site which refers to the announcement by the official Moroccan news agency (MAP). Its in English. [19].

The Times also refer to his various roles and awards:

    • Re Constantinian Order see [20] and [21]
    • Re: Panama President award to Bailey see [22].
    • Re: President of Lebanon award and reason featured at[23];
    • Re: :President of Yemen award referred to at [24].
    • Re:President of Syria awarded listed at [25].
    • Re: President of Costa Rica award listed at [26].
    • Re: King of Morocco award see [27];
    • Re: Pope John Paul II award see [28]. -- Seisal[Talk]
  • Comment. OK, but then the article should properly reflect these citations as footnotes each time, and only if they are NOT deriving from his Eligo or related websites (avoid COI). See WP:LIVING. Furthermore, the article should bring out more tangibly the nature of the ostensible concrete achievements that have meritted his many awards. His notability can be enhanced by better reference to his achievements, and these should be verifiable; see WP:BIO. Bailey definitely qualifies as notable as he currently meets two criteria required out of three possible under WP:NOBLE (Lesser nobility and gentry), in that he is gentry, but is an Ambassador, and also is a member of more than one national order.Tricky 16:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I have added all the references and links I could find to the revised text. >[Talk]

  • Comment WP:NOBLE, is a proposal, it has not gained community consensus as a guideline, so meeting those proposed criteria doesn't necessarily mean an individual is "notable" for article purposes.--Isotope23 16:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, Yes but the primary criterion on WP:BIO is also disputed, and a guideline anyhow is only that; each article should stand or fall on its own merits. The Bailey article regardless of whether it originated as a vanity item, has generated such controversy that if its reduced content is finally deemed factual on grounds of acceptable verification, then the combination of his characteristics renders him notable enough - and if and when he marries his Princess, then even more so.Tricky 16:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment eh, the dispute at WP:BIO is a whole other can of worms... and you are right, it is a guideline, not a rule, so it is subject to interpretation. I am just saying that I don't know if I would put too much stock in an individual meeting a proposed guideline because it is my experience that proposals are not given much weight without community consensus. For the record, I have no opinion on this particular individual other than that the article needs sourcing or a good hard edit to remove everything that is unsourced.--Isotope23 17:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
    • Comment. Could I suggest that now I and others have sourced so many of the facts that others in the community had at first quite rightly called into question in my proposed article on Anthony Bailey that you move forward with any additional changes you feel are appropraite. As I said this is very much a learning curve for me. . I have added all the references and links I could find to the revised text. --Seisal
      • Comment. I suggest you revise the Education section to reflect his own (previously included), i.e. UCL, Budapest, and Sofia degrees, and not his work in the Education sector. You could also add a section on his actual accomplishments, as I advised before, e.g. what funds has he helped raise, and to what social or community benefit (impact on Passage Homeless Center? Impact of his assistance to Nuncio in Serbia? etc). What has been the impact of his particular diplomatic/brokerage activities, and can this be demonstrated verifiably? He presumably did not get his various knighthoods or awards just for being good at PR, but rather for having distinguished himself - so how did he do that, and what was/were its verifiable result/s? Also, he has been the object of some media controversy, e.g. his dealings with mid-east states and his one-time funding offer to the Labour Party, which was rejected at that time. How have these controversies been resolved? Why did he accept to become an Ambassador (to Europe) for Gambia, given the peculiarities of the latter's Prez and his so-called herbal cure for AIDS? Is that an honorary post or remunerated? And how does he square that with his foreign policy advisory role to Labour's FPC - is that not a COI? These issues are in the public domain already, and should be addressed via NPOV Tricky 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Thanks for your valuable comments. I have revised the article considerably again to reflect your opinions and added backed his education background and researched his various other roles and put why he got each honour in the relevant section where I could fine it from non Eligo sources. His education role seems quite considerable as it crosses into his fundraising and Middle Eastern roles as well as some of the honours he has received either for related work within the UK or abroad. I have sourced several national newspaper articles which refer to the £8m raised for city academies and added this into the article and linked it to some of his existing education roles. The United Learning Trust role is important since it directly links him to the two sheffield academies he fundraised and he sits of their board along side the like of Lord Carey of Clifton, Dame Angela Rumbold and Sir Anthony Greener. Interestingly the more I research him the more I can see that his PR role is very much secondry to his inter-religious, philtantropic and education roles. This is also backed up in the Sunday Times article which says he cleared just over £100k in one year through PR. I have had to be quite careful when refering to this article since it is subject to legal action and denied by the Prime Minister and others. Should I remove it all together or can I keep it as it is. I can only assume that the many other charitbale roles he has are also in the field of event organisation, protocol and fundraising although I cannot find verifiable proof as to which. Knowing of the problems of Serbia and Montenegro the work for the Holy See for which he was knighted is also related to inter-religious work and there is a picture of him with some muslims and jews on the official papal knights website. I cannot find anything on his Gambian role except one article which I have referred to from a Gambian paper shortly before his appointment as Ambassador. No idea of the AIDS herbal cure! What madness! Doubt he is getting paid to be an Ambassador at Large and the Gambian article I found seems to suggest he was in the ocuntry originally to assist business in the Gambia and therefore assume the Ambassadorial role relates to this somehow or the African Union summit which Gambia hosted last year. Very little in this regard at least in English. Believe I have answered now most of the points raised by the community and ignored some of the unnecessary personal attacks on Bailey himself in relation to politics and his future wife and suggest that it is a considered for speedy keep now unless there are other comments. Seisal

Comment and keep if it decided to keep I think I may have made a mistake with his name as he is know by all accounts as Anthony Bailey and not Anthony John Bailey as I first thought. Can you advise me on this. Seisal

Seisal, what is your interest in or connection to Bailey? -Kittybrewster 17:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not have any connection to Bailey but became interested in his inter-religious work as a British Catholic and have seen articles on him in the past in the Catholic press in this country. I too felt orginally that at his age it must be too good to be true but his story does stack up even when you remove all the eligo references. When I read in January his engagement to the Austrian Princess in the newspaper I was already aware through history books of the Hohenberg anti-Nazi role during the Second World War and saw that this was not properly reflected on the Wikipedia entry on the Family so added some. The connection between the two led me to start to investigate Bailey some more and I started adding to the existing page on him. I have never played a role on wikipedia before and so started to change articles without being properly qualified in terms of the community's requirements. Yes I made many mistakes but my persistence with this article is that I believe him to be notable in many circles but at the same time have learnt a great deal as to how wikipedia works and what is expected of it and I hope the community will understand - even those that seem to suggest that whatever I do on Bailey and spend so long to correct my mistakes and get it right in the end are unwilling to accept. It seems one or two in community have grudges against him for be a Labour Party supporter or for other reasons but that should not affect my work or indeed some of their comments in relation to the context of this article. Seisal
Don't worry the result shan't be keep, as he's non-notable. --Couter-revolutionary 16:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, but he is indeed notable, we've already established that - albeit not without controversy - otherwise why would you be taking such interest? But, the article still needs further polishing. so, Keep, and improve (but without Eligo references) Tricky 16:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Please only add a keep or delete' once per discussion.--Isotope23 17:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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