Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ancient Treasure Hunters

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  22:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Treasure Hunters

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Contested prod. Proded as "Non-notable camp, with only 61 Google hits." by User:Kimchi.sg. Delete per proder. Eivind^t@c 07:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep

A deletion of this page was proposed because of only 61 hits on the Google search engine. However, the summer camp now caters to hundreds of campers and merits its own page, explaining to people what the camp is and/or does.

This page is not an attempt to spam or advertise the camp. I have used Wikipedia for almost as long as it has been around, and I have seen article of far less relevance been allowed to stay. Wikipedia is after all - an Encyclopedia, and in order for an Encyclopedia to be truly complete, (especially an online type of this nature) it should be able to carry an article of relevance for the people.

Ancient Treasure Hunters is currently in midst of talks with television networks to create a reality series based on the camp. In fact, NBC has created a reality series called 'Treasure Hunters' and this has increased exposure of our camp becuase of people typing in the terms 'treasure hunters' into their various search engines.

We have received numerous emails requesting a short description or explanation fo the camp, and since I have always turned to Wikipedia as a valuable source of information, I feel that the same ability should be made available, that people can search their encyclopedia which can explain what the camp represents.--Joshua 07:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• All that may be true, but there are no other sources I can find that back up your claim; hence it is unverifiable.

1. "In fact, NBC has created a reality series called 'Treasure Hunters'...", unless the series mentions the camp by name, it bears no relevance on the camp's notability.
2. "this has increased exposure of our camp..." - Statistics and sources for the figures?
3. "We have received numerous emails requesting a short description or explanation fo the camp,... I feel that the same ability should be made available, that people can search their encyclopedia which can explain what the camp represents." - I feel that your website can do the same thing better, and in more detail.

Delete as original prodder. Kimchi.sg 07:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep

You posted your reply in less than 8 minutes from the time that I posted my statement claiming that you can find no other sources to back up my claims. What vast sources and resources did you try to use in those 8 minutes? Are you a 12 year veteran of the camping and summer camp industries, and as such have a vast working knowledge of the summer camp industry, including historical literature from conventions and/or industry statistics from trade publications? Because if you are not, then I am not certain what credibility your statement holds, or why exactly you should even think that you have the ability to verify it. And of course, because you are not the above, what right do you have to even make a statement or have an opinion on this article's deletion? (no harshness intended)

Reply to your 1: The relevance is, that because our summer camp program bears such a similar name to the reality series, people are getting confused between the two. We want to make sure that when a person searches an encyclopedic source for the term Ancient Treasure Hunters, that they do not think that we are the NBC specific reality series.

Reply to your 2: I have been involved with the camping and summer camp industries for over a decade. I have attended trade shows, subscribe to industry publications, have close ties with many travel related summer camps and travel agencies all over the planet. I know the attendance histories of over a dozen travel related summer camps, and I also know their average daily inquiries - by date. By comparison to theirs and our own historical statistics, our inquiries have increased by almost 40%. This is a tremendous surge.

Reply to your 3: Our website does explain it better, and in much more detail. You can view it yourself to see what depth we go in to. The fact that the page we posted in Wikipedia is so short and brief should be a testemant to the fact that this is a legitimate and informative post only. --Joshua 07:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: "Are you a 12 year veteran of the camping and summer camp industries...?" I am not, but an ad hominem will not save your article from deletion. I thought you would have a better tactic than to start off questioning all and sundry who dares to ask you this very simple question: "Is there anybody else, besides Wikipedia, who think your summer camp program is worth writing about?" - which is what our verifiability policy requires. Your long reply, despite its length, has not addressed this crucial question at all. If the answer to this question is "no", then well, it shows that no one else cares about your summer camp program, even if all the info about it is true. So why should we? Please, add to the articles during the five days in which this discussion, convince us otherwise. As for "This is a legitimate and informative post" - yes it may be, but Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

Lastly, please do not write a new '''keep''' everytime you make a comment. We know to discount multiple votes from the same person. Kimchi.sg 08:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Sorry, but this is not notable. DarthVader 09:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. 27 google hits, about fifteen relevant, all spam. I could not find one independent review, comment or mention. Mr Stephen 10:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, no notability established in article, google does not find notability. Sorry, a summer camp is not notable in the encyclopedia sense of the word. Weregerbil 10:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Per all of article creator's comments. Wickethewok 14:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The article doesn't state what is notable about this camp, relative to all of the other Summer camps available in the US. Can the author state what makes this camp notable in the article itself, please? If no such information is forthcoming, a delete vote would be in order.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  15:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Joshua. I find nothing 'delete-worthy' about this article. Porphyric Hemophiliac § 16:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Sorry, but Wikipedia is not a free host, blog or webspace provider. --Starionwolf 18:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

aeropagitica - I will add information about the summer camp program to help show what is notable about the camp. Please understand that the reason it was originally kept brief, was because I did not want anyone to think that this was spam, or some kind of self glorification. But now that I am more familiar with Wikipedia's way, I will add information that shows why the program is unique. --Joshua 19:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr Stephen - the camp and summer camping industry is not your typical industry and statistics, articles are not yet as common on the internet. Camps do not get much press, and they don't put out many press releases. Clients are usually obtained by targeted direct mail pieces, and this will explain why you will not see much in the way of 'reviews' of camps. However, you may note that we are a member of the National Camp Association (www.summercamp.org).--Joshua 19:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Kimchi - a. 'ad hominem' - I was not attacking anyone. In fact, I even put in afterwards '(no harshness intended)' to avoid anyone thinking that. I stated the facts, that only someone who is knowledgable in the camping and summer camping industries would have the ability to make the statements he was making. b. I do believe that there are those besides Wikipedia who would think that our camp is worth writing about. In January for instance, Hadley Lewis of the Boston Parents Guide wrote an article about our summer camp program. c. I was not trying to make it as multiple votes. I have never defended an article before, so I did not realize I am not supposed to be doing that - I thought it was more like a paragraph header, sorry. --Joshua 19:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Weregerbil - Google is a search engine. Unless there are public articles such as press releases, etc..., (which is common in different industries) there is not much for Google, Yahoo or any other search engine to link on to besides the website. As I mentioned earlier, the summer camping industry does not attract its clientel that way, and therefore there will not be many articles showing, if any. This is why summer camps will typically pay for advertising click-throughs on search engines. However, because people turn to the internet for definitions and explanations of things, (even summer camps), particularly Wikipedia, we wanted there to be a reliable source to explain what the organization does. --Joshua 19:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore - I would hope that as admins, there is never any 'funny stuff' going on, such as just simply asking other admins or sysops or whatevers to come in and put in a 'delete' vote as some sort of comrodery between admins. As if to say 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours'. Remember that this is not the Gestapo, you are supposed to be at a high standard, and not to take advantage of your positions. For instance - Wickethewok it states on your user page that you contribute mostly to music articles, suggesting that that is where your speciality resides. Why then, are people without the necessary background and information in the summer camp industry voting on a topic that they know nothing about? Without the relevant education in the industry, isn't is much like a medical doctor walking in to a court room to act as a litigator? --Joshua 19:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Starionwolf - This article is not an attempt to do any of what you listed. As stated earlier, we have been inundated with requests recently, and we thought that since people go to Wikipedia anyway for information (parents actually have said on the phone 'yeah, I checked Wikipedia to see what your program is, but I couldn't find anything about it there') we thought that it does merit an article. --Joshua 19:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: I simply don't see the necessary number of independent and reliable sources for this subject. Tangent: Nice website. Did you bother to get permission to use the Howie Day song?

Hetar - I answered this concern of yours above already. Please note above. Thanks for the nice comment on the website. We have outsourced legal counsel which deals with licensing permissions for the music we use.

• Yes, I read the above, and I am saying, I don't see the necessary sources. --Hetar 19:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hetar - sources for what? I am trying to explain that you will not find sources like that on the internet.

• Independent and reliable sources that provide detailed coverage of your camp. Without them, we can't have an article on it. --Hetar 19:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hetar - you can refer to the National Camp Association at www.summercamp.org - I don't think they list camp info on their website, but you can get their contact information and call them up. They can provide detailed info about the camp. Also we are listed on MySummerCamps.com, Campsdirectory.com, kidscom.mysummercamps.com, guidetosummercamps.com, e-camps.com, summer-day-camps.net, overnight-summer-camps.com, guidetosummercamps.com, and several others whose names currently elude me. --Joshua 20:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - None of those can be considered reliable secondary sources. Wickethewok 20:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wickethewok - The first one I mentioned, National Camp Association is one of the most trusted sources for reliable information about camps in the summer camping industry. They are an industry recognized source, and have been so for over two decades. See [1] --Joshua 20:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - no evidence of notability. If you go on their website to "Request Info/Sign Up" and then "ATH in the press", their own press release says that this summer will be the first season of this camp. I'm not sure that I see how a brand new camp warrants inclusion on Wikipedia. BigDT 05:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

BigDT - This was the first season of the camp under the name Ancient Treasure Hunters. Previously, we have been simply called an 'Archaeology Camp'. We chose this 'new face' when the decision was made by the owners of the camp to expand and broaden the reach and goals of the company. (During the year, the company owners go on their own expeditions all over the planet and aid and assist in the recovery of 'buried treasure'. We bring students/campers with us on these expeditions as well. These same students usually end up becoming campers in our archaeology camp. Hence, we have never really needed to go 'big' on the marketing angle. Now, the company's ambitions include getting a reality series for the expedition and camp angles of the business, we are in the midst of publishing a book on the topic titled 'Ancient Treasure Hunters' - or some variation if the editors end up changing it, and more. We conglomerated everything into one name, face, image etc... called Ancient Treasure Hunters. We have also worked hard - the website is the result - on the marketing angle to attract more clientel.--Joshua 05:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete advertising, written by employee, self promotion, violation WP:CORP by lack of other sources. Congratulations on your hard work, but this isn't a blog site. Tychocat 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete All other arguments aside, for this to be notable, someone would have to be discussing it. Google search shows no evidence abotu this. If it were notable in the encyclopedia sense, there woouldbe a news story or two or at least some people would have mentioned going there on personal sites. If that reality show deal goes through, then it will be notable. Right now, it isn't. Ace of Sevens 12:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I disagree with all u guys. It looks to me like you're all ganging up against him to prove some point, and the point is that u wanna win the war. He already answered u'r thing over and over again by saying that in the summer camp industry, things just don't work the same. There are no forums, no discussion groups, and internet searching is at a minimum. U can't just keep on arguing the same point over and over again just because its easy to say! And, it's not self promotion just because it was written by an employee! And he gave u the other source secondary verifiable source - the National Camp Association! But I am sure that nobody here is going to bother to call them up on the phone, because then u'r universe of the inernet is interrupted!--rationality 20:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Things working different in the summer camp industry only gets you so far. It seems to amount to claiming that notable summer camps by their nature can't produce any evidence of notability beyonf unsubstantiated claims or summer camps by their nature are never notable. That's not an argument for keeping this page. Ace of Sevens 23:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• $$$--KeeP--$$$ Google? u keep making Google search results as a good reason to delete this entry. i think our world is about us and what we need - information, products, services etc. and Treasure Hunters is one of those things that fall in between most categories for a select group of people, that group of people is diverse enough and having the added spice of intrigue i think this is a worthy entry 100%. all the other losers which feel in need of being Mega st. Nerds you should pick your noses and let us know what you found, maybe we will even document your treasures, becasue they make as much sense as your review. X-X->SHAI<-X-X —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shai Canaan (talk • contribs).

• Welcome to Wikipedia, "rationality" and "Shai". Wickethewok 20:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP* I am not familiar with the summer camp industry, and I am definitely not well versed in the policies and procedures of Wikipedia. I can say one thing with confidence though: I am rapidly losing respect and interest in Wikipedia. It seems to me that ATH is a revolutionary, refreshing, educational and yes - fun summer camp. It is a true novel concept. Why then would the powers that be wish to delete an article about this camp? Isn't that the whole point of an encyclopedia? To educate us? I am actually shocked that there has been so much fuss about this resourceful article! Please do not delete this creative article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shimmyi (talk • contribs). This editor's first contribution. Welcome to Wikipedia!
• Delete Not notable and doesn't seem to be any avenue for constructive reference.--Auger Martel 11:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.