Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Absinthe Retailers

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Absinthe Retailers

Wikipedia is not a business directory. Delete. –Sommers ^(Talk) 11:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Pavel Vozenilek 12:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Absinthe page has overview of availability in several countries. At least one website (the Swedish one) linked from External links section contains list of sellers (much larger then AfDed article has now).

To find a nearby seller is task of Google or Yahoo or specialised web directory, not WP. List of absinthe producers could be considered since these are likely few and relatively stable. I cannot imagine how page containing list of brick and mortar and especially online end sellers could be maintained here.

The difference from List of supermarkets in size. Supermarket chains are few. Taking look there I noticed one invalid item for Czech Republic. I don't think I would be able to do it for list of small or online shops of a very specific product.

One possibility would be to keep only list of brand sellers names but I never saw anything like this on Wikipedia yet. So I am not changing my mind. Pavel Vozenilek 20:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Pavel. Yes, I agree that one or two external sites have larger lists than the article as it currently stands. I was not going to spend hours and days on a fuller (and more up-to-date) list only to see it deleted. If it is agreed to keep the article, it will be much more comprehensive.

I don't believe that Google or Yahoo or similar can produce a satisfactory list: that is the reason I considered doing one on Wikipedia.

I think that the online section of the list is fairly easy to maintain: there are probably around 20 online absinthe shops of any significance.

As far as bricks and mortars sellers are concerned, I would guess that your perspective, Pavel, may be slightly different from mine (or most readers of Wikipedia) since absinthe is much more readily available in the Czech Republic than elsewhere. In London, apart from Tesco and 1/2 other large supermarkets. one can only find absinthe at 4/5 large department stores and about 3 specialists. The situation is similar in many other European countries.

I hope I can persuade you to re-consider.

Alanmoss 21:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom Maustrauser 12:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment I have been asked to provide some further comment after Pavel's additional information. I still believe that Wikipedia is not a business directory. The argument put forward by Pavel, could be used for many pharmaceuticals that are only available in certain countries, or for certain drugs etc. Just because Kava is legal in Fiji and illegal elsewhere, does not mean that Wiki should provide a way of finding the stuff. It is non-encyclopaedic, difficult to maintain and provides little that a Google search could not eventually find. I remain with my original vote of delete. Maustrauser 06:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. AJR | Talk 13:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

My purpose in starting this site is NOT to set up a business directory. As you may or may not know, absinthe has only recently been legalised in most countries in Europe and it is still very difficult to find. In the US it is still illegal and I am seeking to help both Americans and others in Canada, Europe and Asia to find out where they can get absinthe. Absinthe's status in the USA means that US consumers either use the internet to purchase or make it themselves which is a highly illegal activity and a much greater risk to people trying to do this at home.

I see little difference between what I am proposing here and this section of Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Supermarkets

which seems to take readers to long lists of stores (and the Wikipedia entries) for various countries. The only major difference is the scale .. and since I have just started this entry, I need a while to get that far and to do it as well.

I would be grateful for help in creating this site and any links in the correct way.

Alanmoss 14:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Well, Category:Supermarkets is a category of articles, not an article itself, but the comparison to List of supermarkets would actually be a valid one. Hmm. I might be willing to change my vote to "keep" on this article, but the following things would have to happen for it to become a valid list article:
  1. The title should be changed to List of absinthe retailers (and Template:Listdev would be appropriate).
  2. The first paragraph would have to be pared down to a short lead, probably a single sentence, so that it doesn't sound like it's introducing an advertisement. Anything to be said about absinthe's legality and sale can be said neutrally at the absinthe page.
  3. Perhaps most importantly, the page should not be an invitation for businesses to put their own links (or names) there for free advertising.

This last point is why the page could turn into a collection of "linkspam", in which case it would wind up on AfD again. The important thing would be that the page is an encyclopedic list that would be reasonably informative to the reader, not an indiscriminate list of businesses (no matter how useful it may be to the reader—Wikipedia strives to be useful only within the bounds of being an encylopedia). But Alanmoss may be correct that the page has the potential to turn into something more like List of supermarkets instead of just another linkspam page. It's an interesting question and I'd like to get other editors' feedback on it. Thanks. –Sommers ^(Talk) 18:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the first para already, but cannot see how to change the title or template. Do I need to start the page again to do that?

I certainly don't want it to become listspam, and I'm sure that there are other absinthe experts who would help me in policing that.

Thanks for your consideration.

Alanmoss 19:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

comment You should see a "move" tab at the top of the page, next to "edit this page" and "history", which moves a page to a new title (i.e. changing the title.) One simple way to avoid it becoming a spammy page would be to only have links to Wikipedia articles about the listed retailers, and not external links to their websites. Also, restricting it to notable retailers might be a good idea, rather than potentially listing every off-licence or equivilent that sells absinthe. -- AJR | Talk 22:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Not encyclopedic, as well Absinthe is LEGAL in Canada, just none of the crazy stuff. Mike _{(T C)} 00:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Can we keep it? It looks pretty handy to me, as Google is especially poor at helping to locate real-world shops for absinthe. It's still pretty rare on the ground here in the UK. Binkydozer 16:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Per some of the arguments above, I'm changing my vote to keep. I think I'm convinced that this article has the potential to be encyclopedic as long as it is restricted to large, notable retailers (i.e., many of which would hopefully have their own legitimate Wikipedia pages) and is not allowed to become a business directory, indiscriminate list, or invitation to linkspam. Just because the list will be a little short does not mean that the article is worthless. This is not a clearly non-notable subject, so let's give the article a chance to be edited into a good one, or at the very least err on the side of inclusion. –Sommers ^(Talk) 17:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I'm on the fence and thus abstaining. On one hand there are some notable vendors and stores that have helped to push absinthe forward, making it better know, and/or working with both small and large distilleries to create a better product. As absinthe on wikipedia grows these companies probably deserve their own pages. So a page grouping them together makes sense. On the other it does seem to come pretty close to what wikipedia is not and could cause link-spam problems. There are a number of small, unnotable, and/or unscrupulous sellers that I wouldn't put it past them to link spam the page. If the page stays I think a criteria for listing a link needs to be added to the talk page to reduce any possible edit wars from vendors or vendor fans who feel their site should be added to the list. Ari 18:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Ari. Ari's presence will, I am sure, helps maintain the article's integrity as much as is possible. I would like to suggest, given the variety of views, that I do a bit more work on the article over the next week or so, knowing that there is still a possibility of deletion, but also the possibility that it will then address the concerns raised here. Alanmoss 09:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I am now starting to adopt the suggested policy of linking, wherever possible, only to outlets that have their own Wikipedia page, eg Tesco, Harrods, LCBO, some airports and airlines. There are some exceptions and I take Ari's point about the criteria for listing a link (assuming this to be external). I will have a stab at that (easier for bricks and mortars stores than for online sellers, I think). A lot of work in progress here ... Alanmoss 12:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.