Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Able and Baker (5th nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was complex.

This article and the issue of syndication as distribution has been the nexus of a tremendous amount of discussion:

Deletion discussions: Nominations 1 2 3 4 Review 1
A&B in guideline creation discussions: 1 2 2a 3
Arbitration resulting from previous deletion discussions: 1
Syndication discussion: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Following these lengthy discussion, and noting that guidelines and policies are descriptive not proscriptive, it's not unreasonable to view this deletion discussion as a referendum on the question "Does syndication satisfy the content is distributed via a medium which is both well known and independent of the creators criterion of the Wikipedia:Notability (web) guideline?"

Clearly the consensus is that it does not. Some suggestions exist for merging or redirecting to its syndicate,Dayfree Press but these are not supported by consensus. Delete.

brenneman 03:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Able and Baker (5th nomination)

Able and Baker (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

If you ever wondered how GNAA got up to 18 AfD's, here's how. The 4th nomination was speedily kept by a participating admin, but the decision was overturned at deletion review where a new nomination was asked for. So we're now up to #5. Oh, the article is about a webcomic and this is a procedural nomination, so I have no opinion other than that this should run its allocated 5 days, or otherwise it'll end up at DRV again. ~ trialsanderrors 02:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. It is not the responsibility of people who want it deleted to show beyond the shadow of reasonable (and unreasonable) doubt that no sources exist now, existed before, or ever will exist. It's the responsibility of people who want it kept to provide sources, and they have not. It's been quite long enough. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 03:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete There's absolutely no notability asserted, and absolutely no third-party sourcing. If somebody can establish importance in the next five days, I'd be happy to change my !vote. However, I doubt that's going to happen. -- Kicking222 04:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, no notability established and zero third-party sources. Naconkantari 04:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and salt. There is no assertion of notability, and as noted above, no coverage in reliable sources.--RWR8189 04:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. The article does not give a reason to believe that the comic satisfies WP:WEB. I agree that this nomination should be allowed to run a full 5 days. --Metropolitan90 05:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - unless sources can be provided that it meets WP:WEB (my poke around found nothing) --Haemo 05:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom users above Nashville Monkey 07:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment per nom? Trialsanderrors listed this as a procedural listing, meaning there is no nom opinion. Metros232 15:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
    • well then if you want to get anal about it then it's just a friggin Delete vote... isn't it? Nashville Monkey 01:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment well considering that AFD isn't a vote and is actually a consensus builder...Metros232 13:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Could you possibly give it a rest? and maybe consider being constructive by placing yor opinion as to the article itself and not other user's choices of words? Just a suggestion. Nashville Monkey 19:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Could you possibly not call other established users trolls? Metros232 19:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per User:Amarkov   •The RSJ•   Talk | Sign Here 01:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:WEB and general lack of reliable sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per everybody. I at least looked at the page and the website referred to. Can't say why this should be in an encyclopedia. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 19:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Is there a reason that there is a majority keep at Old South Road, which has no third party sources, yet this is being !voted majority delete for the exact same reasons? Which rules are we supposed to be following here, because it gives the outward appearance as a double standard to delete this and keep some sub-trivial article from Lord of the Rings just because WP:WELIKEIT. Yamaguchi先生 03:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

We should follow policy. Just because people want to keep one page for bad reasons does not mean that we should keep another one. You should point that out of the AFD for the page in question and you could consider appealing to deleteion review if you think the page was kept againts Wikipedia policies. In case you are wondering DRV can also be used to contest keep decisions. To rilteate we should not be following WP:ILIKEIT or we are going to have AFD 6 any time now. --70.48.110.117 05:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Mostly systemic bias. Though as I pointed out in the Merge "vote" on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old South Road, lage, active fandoms like Tolkien actually produce third-party published works covering the minutia of their worlds so that alot of Tolkien-cruft meets the primary notability criterion by being covered in multiple independent works. Eluchil404 06:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - no new information presented since previous deletion debates, no changes to notability policy. Recommend censure of those who feel that it is appropriate to continue using AfD until one gets the desired result without actually changing their arguments at all. Phil Sandifer 20:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment this doesn't seem so cut and dry. 2 of the discussions resulted in delete, 1 was keep, and 1 was speedy keep which went to DRV where it was overturned and relisted now.--RWR8189 20:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Before we do that, we should censure the people who kept recreating the article until an AfD resulted in keep. Would you like that? -Amarkov

^blah_edits 22:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

If so many people keep recreating, it could also be a clue as to notability, of course :-) Kim Bruning 23:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh. Then try unprotecting the GNAA article: it must be notable, since people keep recreating it, right? :-) bogdan 23:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

In the case of the GNAA they were actively working to subvert wikipedia. I don't think the same can be said of Able and Baker (what with them being fictional creatures and all :-P ) Kim Bruning 23:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Phil: I've seen several people ask you to insert some claim of notability into the article itself. It might be a good idea to provide that data in the article itself. Could you quickly do so? Thank you! :-) Kim Bruning 23:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This has been done for ages, though I've clarified it in the article. The problem isn't that the article doesn't assert notability - it's that people with no knowledge of the larger subject (webcomics) are making judgments of notability, and people are treating this as a democracy in that "two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch" sort of way. Phil Sandifer 23:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the problem is more that the article has no reliable sources. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the problem is that the definition of reliable sources being applied to articles like this is useless, and has nothing to do with reliability. The sources being used for this article would be considered reliable for any reputable study of the subject. They are what would be used for scholarship and journalism about the subject. But this whole debate has nothing to do with reliability, and everything to do with using the word "reliable" to mean "notable," which is misleading and wrong. Phil Sandifer 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't seem to find any kind of claim to notability or any references in the current revision of the article. Perhaps they have been lost during previous edits? Could you (re-)state them? --Kim Bruning 23:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah wait, you made an edit just now. Hmm, I'm still not entirely sure how that makes the comic notable. Would you care to explain? Thanks! :-) Kim Bruning 00:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing. Have a look now and see if that helps. Phil Sandifer 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a statement of notability now. Kim Bruning 05:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete this comic is in no way notiable FirefoxMan 22:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete; No assertion of notability. No reliable sources that verify notability.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete/Redirect - If this AFD isn't given 5 days then it will mirror the GNAA AFD pretty well. This article should be deleted but someone should make a neat article (or just redirect to Animals in space) about notable space simians Able and Baker who are notable and have many Reliable Sources [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Previous AFD commentators have pointed out a general failure in meeting WP:WEB and WP:RS. I searched google, google news, google archives etc and found no media mentions for the webcomic itself. Also I searched Jim Burgess and found no media references to the comic author. We should redirect to Animals_in_space. --TrollHistorian 22:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Or just write an article about the actual monkeys. Either way, this has to go. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 22:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • A good idea, but I think Monkeys in space would be a slightly better target. Able and Baker were both monkeys. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• For the record: GNAA managed to make it up to 18 nominations because basically a number of bureaucracy-fans didn't give a hoot that GNAA was damaging wikipedia, as long as people followed their own precious process. (As I discovered during one fine overnighter, until eventually several stewards dropped by and terminated the gnaa-nomic alliance for that night at least). Many moons later, finally someone decided to ignore all rules and just zap the article. Game over! ;-)

In fact, I'm feeling a lot of "process process process" vibes right now:

Discussion with the previous closing admin? What's that?

Go talk with him! He might actually provide some kind of reasoning!

This article has previously been fine since 2005 and has had many contributions from many contributors. Perhaps it could be improved somehow? --Kim Bruning 00:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If it has no Reliable Sources, it can't be improved. And getting many edits is not a proof of notability: see Gay Nigger Association of America, which had 2722 edits. bogdan 11:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's why I've asked Phil Sandifer (who is apparently a subject matter expert) to find some. If he knows his stuff, it shouldn't be too hard to do :-) . As to GNAA, isn't that what I said? :-P It got kept for bureaucratic and/or conflict prevention reasons for quite a while, until someone just deleted it per IAR. --Kim Bruning 17:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Opinions made after additional information about notability 05:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

(move your statement here if you have indeed reviewed the article)

• Tentative keep, looks like the article now does claim notability, at the least. Kim Bruning 05:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Awaiting response from Phil Sandifer (or perhaps one of the article authors) Kim Bruning 17:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• I have no desire to go find mine, so still endorse my original delete !vote. This is going to have to be relisted. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

  How can we improve the article further? Kim Bruning 05:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

  Notability's fine; it wasn't really my problem in the first place. My problem is that there are no reliable sources (for that matter, no sources at all outside of the official website). -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

  Actually, notability isn't fine; nothing shows that this specific strip is notable. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Update: I have read the additional claim to notability, and I agree it makes a claim to notability, but the article still has zero independent sources. Keeping in mind that everyone who is involved in the world of webcomics as a creator, reader, or critic has access to the Internet, I don't think it's asking too much to require independent sources to establish notability of this comic under WP:WEB. I don't think we need a re-listing; the supporters of this article had ample warning that independent sources were needed. --Metropolitan90 05:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• My vote has not changed, regardless of claim of notability it fails to meet WP:WEB and back that claim up with something verifiable and reliable. --TrollHistorian 05:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Still Delete, per my above view. Please don't change the format of an AFD in the middle of it. Naconkantari 05:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Ditto above users, you should know better than to change or modify an Afd during it's process. You want my opinion? It's still ↑ up there where it belongs. Nashville Monkey 08:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

When an article is up for deletion, it would be unfair if people couldn't actully change the article to fix the problems as people mention them. It's an aspect of consensus. :-) Kim Bruning 17:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Where are the sources? Why haven't any been found after all this time? WarpstarRider 09:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete no WP:RS or WP:V bogdan 09:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete The evidence for keeping it is that it has a notable publisher. Is everything from a particular publisher notable? Is it being asserted that everything they do is good? What Ive been looking for is numbers about readership or whatever passses for it on the subject. Or sources with critical attention. None have been offered. If it existed, we could evaluate it. As far as I can tell, its only source of critical attention is this discussion. DGG 10:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep again - I continue to be baffled by the willingness of people who seem to have little knowledge of the subject to declare what a reliable source is and what the notability standards are, even when people who are familiar with the subject and (in my case) working academically on the subject assert otherwise. AfD increasingly resembles two wolves and a sheep trying to decide what to have for dinner. Phil Sandifer 13:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the claim to notability is still not yet obvious. Apparently people still require reliable source(s) to back up why this comic is notable. See the opinions of other people above for how this could be achieved. Also, a reasoning as to why it is reliable might also be welcome, as many wikipedians are not webcomics experts. Could you provide that? --Kim Bruning 17:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure - basically, there are two types of webcomics. The first are independent ones - self-published, either hosted on the writer's own webspace or on a free webcomic host. These comics are sometimes notable - indeed, Penny Arcade, which would be a strong contender for "if we include only one webcomic, this must be it..." falls into this category. Then there's the second category - comics that have been picked up by one of what one might call the webcomic syndicates (Though syndicate is an odd term, since there's not always the sort of external publication that one gets from a newspaper syndicate). These syndicates are picked by editors who are respected figures in the webcomics community, and create a sort of brand identity of webcomics. Keenspot and the Modern Tales set are probably the two most important, but also on the list is Dayfree Press, which has some of the most important strips going on in webcomics - Questionable Content, Dinosaur Comics, and Girly. The editor of Dayfree Press, for example, was named one of the 25 big names in webcomics in 2004 by Comixpedia - one of the major places one goes if one is looking for information about the larger webcomics community. (Websnark and The Webcomics Review are the two other biggies at present.) Able and Baker is a member of Dayfree, and has thus been identified by an important figure in webcomics as an important webcomic, and has become part of a significant brand identity in the webcomics world. Ergo it is a notable topic in the coverage of webcomics. Phil Sandifer 17:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It is picked up by Dayfree Press, which is indeed a notable "syndicate". That does mean that it has been identified as an important webcomic. That does not mean that the particular webcomic is notable, or that the particular comic has reliable sources. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 17:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the comic is a reliable primary source. The Dayfree website would also be a reliable primary source. I'm not sure I see the problem here. As for notability, that the comic was picked up by a notable syndicate ought, I should think, make it notable. It was, after all, judged significant by a notable figure in the field (the editor). Phil Sandifer 18:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Um... no. Every scientist Lloyd Cross collaborated with isn't notable, every game Nintendo published isn't notable, and every comic strip Dayfree Press picks up isn't notable. Notability must be established seperately for a seperate article. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 18:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Academic collaboration is a stranger issue, since grad student/professor collaboration is very important in the sciences, which raises a special case. I would, however, imagine that every game published by Nintendo would pass AfD. Phil Sandifer 18:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a secondary source which confirms Dayfree press does indeed host it? Can you provide a secondary source for any of the character descriptions in the comic? Can you even provide secondary sources about the author himself? --TrollHistorian 19:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, are you seriously suggesting that Dayfree isn't a reliable source on what it hosts? Phil Sandifer 20:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I said secondary sources. The fact that none of the article has citations or references to anything but the author's site and the host's site is a serious issue. We need reliable secondary sources WP:RS, the only good a Dayfree link is for holding up the verifiability. --TrollHistorian 21:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Not knowing this area of publishing, I ask you seriously if you think everything published/distributed by Dayfree has been notable? everything? There must be very few publishing entitiies of any sort of whom this can be said.DGG 20:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• keep please if this is syndicated by dayfree press that is notable enough for me Yuckfoo 18:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - that something exists doesn't mean it automatically gets into wikipedia.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 18:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete (no change of vote) there's still no sources, so problems with WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:WEB still exist. I'm inclined to think that if after all this time and effort no sources have been found, it's probably because they don't exist. It certainly isn't due to lack of attention to the article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

(The above is a duplicate !vote reiterating comments made above)--Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 20:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete, the article as it stands now is a perfect example of what happens with articles about non-notable fictional works; there's nothing but plot summary. Unless you can say something substantial about it, or cite some secondary source, there isn't a legitimate piece of article content to be had. The fact that it's published in a syndicate can be reflected in a list of comics published by that syndicate, and it doesn't really take more than one line there to give a decent summary of what it is. the rest is just getting into a level of detail unverifiable by secondary sources. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 03:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• I assure you, none of the problems of this article are unique to non-notable fictional works. Phil Sandifer 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.