Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/27 Club (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete, even discounting all unsigned comments (of which there were plenty), I still count 7 people wanting to keep, merge or redirect, and 10 people wanting to delete. That's still not a consensus to delete. A consensus about what to do with this information (keep as is, merge somewhere, redirect) can be reached on the article's talk page, as consensus for that specific decision is not evident from this AfD. W.marsh 22:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 27 Club

This article was already deleted once at Articles_for_deletion/27_Club. It is (still) only a neologism with no widespread outside use. --CrypticBacon 03:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP very intriguing and good idea, funny list, well done - actually it is rather a candidate for "featured articles". Kurt.
• KEEP it - as a fan of music I've always been strangely intrigued by the fact that so many of my favorite musicians died at 27. The fact that many other groups of people share this intrigue is reason enough to keep it. Obviously, not everyone will care, or find this article interesting, but that is not a reason to delete it.
• Keep as it is a popular concept. page bottom lists it as a "curse" and for the MTV generations it has just as much historical significance as Tecumseh's Curse, Kennedy Curse, Rebel Without a Cause Curse and the Superman Curse. If 27 Club is deleted, then the aforementioned should be deleted as well.
• KEEP -- 27 Club is a well-known phenomenon in American pop culture. The fact that the 'Big 4' 27 club members weren't just famous ... they were huuuuge; at the peak of their success. And now each is a rock icon. Heck, Wikipedia has an article about the myth of eating Pop Rocks while drinking soda pop as well as articles on Coprophilia (sexual arousal through feces) and Anal bleaching. KEEP THE 27 CLUB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• Delete as it's a pointless list of musicians who died at age 27. Totally unnecessary. Aplomado - UTC 03:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Actually I think a list of musicians who died young (whatever that is) would be quite interesting. We have List of deaths through alcohol, why not List of musicians who died young? It seems pointless to focus on a single age (that and the title smell slightly of OR) but a general list might be useful. Thatcher131 03:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, to be fair, shortly after Cobain killed himself his mother was quoted as saying "I told him not to join that stupid club"[1], referring to (we presume) other notable musicians who died at 27, so the term does have somewhat of a historical basis, though weak. Through a Google search on "27 club"; I was able to find the term used in one reputable source, and then only as the title to the story. --CrypticBacon 03:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as a recreated article that has already been deleted once. Brian G. Crawford 03:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Bucketsofg 03:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. the BBC article where they mentioned "27 club" was just a catchy title rather than saying that such a club existed. not many relevant google hits [2]. Plus its already mentioned at 27 (number) -- Astrokey44|talk 04:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It's actually a popular concept. Not many popular musicians die under 30, and the fact that most of their deaths happened at the same age is notable. Forever 27 is another known name for this. Manmonk 04:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I should point out that Forever 27 gets around 85,000 hits through google. Manmonk 06:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I change my vote to Delete upon discovery of Category:Entertainers who died in their 20s. Manmonk 05:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Manmonk, your recent change of heart still does not negate the fact that (according to you) "Forever 27" receives 85,000 Google hits. I would be open to rename the article Forever 27 Club, but most definitely not a delete.
    • It would be better off as Category:Musicians who died at 27. There's no reason for us to have an article that gives us no information other than that they died at 27. Manmonk 21:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as nn neologism. --Terence Ong 05:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. 50,700 hits for "27 club" [3] indicates some interest and the BBC article is a verifiable source. There is also an Asahi article [4]. Capitalistroadster 06:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Only 511 Google hits for ("27 club" (hendrix | joplin | cobain | morrison)) [5] which eliminates many of the unrelated hits. --Metropolitan90 06:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect, merging if necessary to 27 (number). It's mentioned there already and doesn't need another article. Night Gyr 10:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect per Night Gyr. Alba 12:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge the entire article into a seperate section of 27 (number) and redirect. Herostratus 15:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep As noted above, it's a popular concept. I had heard it discussed several times before stumbling upon the wikipedia page. —thames 03:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It's a rather fascinating phenomenon, in my opinion, I've always been aware of the strange fact that these artists all died at 27 before wikipedia came along. It's nice to have an entry for it for those who aren't already aware.
• Keep or Merge It's not pointless. I believe one of Wiki's goals is to become the most comprehensive encyclopedia around. Thus, we should all want it to contain as much information as possible, no matter how insignificant it might be to some. A small amount of google hits shouldn't be reason for deletion. Wikipedia would be that much more popular having something that isn't found on a major search engine. Most importantly, it does have a following within the music community, and anyone looking for it won't go to 27 (number) as their first thought. So, per Herostratus' comment, at the very least give it it's own section on 27 (number) with a redirect. --Wilhelm Screamer 15:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, nonsense. incog 15:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Terrance, Brian and nom. Cursive 22:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
• A merge into 27 (number), seems a bit odd as this article isn't really about the number 27. it is after all not math but music and most music fans wouldn't look at 27. The information in the article is certainly interesting trivia, the above mentioned articles do indicate a certain degree of use. Perhaps the term itself is somewhat obscure, so I propose recreating this article at Musicians who died at age 27 with redirects from 27 Club, Forever 27, etc. Then mention those as names for the "phenomenon" in the new article. So, I guess that constitutes a keep and rename vote. Cool3 00:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - cannot find notable examples of usage in this manner. -- infinity0 15:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It is a concept of the fact that 3 (Kurt Cobain not included) of the most popular musical icons died in a timeframe so close together and at the same age. If you are going to delete this becuase it's "nonsense", go ahead and delete the articles for Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, and UFOs.
• Delete Pointless list. Nigelthefish 15:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep ... The BBC, Salon.com [6] and Yahoo Music [7] have all used this terminology, in addition to Kurt Cobains own mother (and by some accounts, Cobain himself).
  • This is another vote from User:206.208.110.32 Manmonk 21:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

KEEP Just the fact that there is so much discussion about this topic warrants it as valid. I am endlessly baffled, fascinated and shocked that all of these important icons died at age 27. It seems more than a coincidence sometimes and I am working on a reasearch project to investigate this more. PLEASE KEEP THIS ENTRY!

This vote is User:Hilarie5000's only edit. --CrypticBacon 01:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment There's 4 more votes at the very top of the page by possible sockpuppets with few, if any, edits at all. User:206.208.110.32 has made 2 votes. It should be known that AfD, and Wikipedia, is not a democracy and majority rule is not the deciding factor. Manmonk 02:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment on Comment -- Wikipedia may not be a "majority rule" or "democracy." But Wikipedia is most definitely a microcosm of pure socialism much like an Amish community (not to be confused with Communism, Fascism or totalitarianism). People contribute their thoughts and ideas for public consumption, but just because someone may not care for the ideas of another that does not warrant the article as meaningless. For example, right now you probably have about 55% of the people that 'don't care for' George W. Bush, but does that mean his article on Wikipedia should be deleted? Should articles about God and Jesus be deleted because someone is an atheist, or Muslim, or Hindu? Wikipedia is a marketplace of ideas, but this article deletion policy is just a mere step away from censorship and book burning. Every article with a purpose -- no matter how ridiculous (Ape Escape 3 anyone?) -- deserves to be part of that free market exchange. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.208.110.32 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC).
    • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I still don't see how this article could go past anything other than the paragraph that states they died at 27. Manmonk 15:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• I've already voted, but I feel that if this poster is available at Art.com [8] and is being mass produced, that indicates sufficient interest in the topic. 206.208.110.32

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.