Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/20th Kisei

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep & cleanup. KrakatoaKatie 04:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 20th Kisei

20th Kisei (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

wtf? Nardman1 00:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you please explain why you added the tag and simply said "wtf?" here? This is a tournament used in Go which hasn't been formatted yet to look like the other Kisei tournament articles (see 1st Kisei, 2nd Kisei, 31st Kisei etc). CanbekEsen 00:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, gee, some context to the article would be nice. Nardman1 00:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, but I'm not a machine and I'm not able to edit all these articles at once. All of them should be done soon. CanbekEsen 00:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• (Edit conflict) Keep was just going to add a comment, which follows, but reading CanbekEsen's comment and checking 1st Kisei answers my points, subject to overall policy (no policy said to have been breached, though). See Kisei - the page gives the details of the 20th Kisei championship in 1996, which according to the Kisei page is the highest-paying competition in Japanese professional Go. I have no idea about Go, and agree that the page could do with some explanatory text (to avoid reactions such as Nardman1's, if for no other reason), but (a) most people coming across this page are likely to do so from the main Kisei page, so will get the context from there; (b) there is a WP Go Project who could be asked to tidy up this sort of page if thought necessary, or salvage the main points of this and the other 30-odd similar pages for this championship into a more limited form. Not sure of the appropriate WP policy for recording results of tournaments in this, or other, games/sports - if the policy is no, then the page should go, as it were... Hope this helps. Bencherlite 00:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all the Kisei tournament articles except for 1st Kisei and the ones after 30th Kisei, as—in its current state—the articles are nothing more than a directory of links to the participants of the tournament.--TBCΦtalk? 01:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd call it just a directory of links. When I first started these, they were just the tournament brackets, but as can be see by the 31st Kisei, these have potential in becoming articles with a load of information, but in due time. But if we do come to the comprimise of deleting such articles except the 1st Kisei, I'd like it if it wasn't speedied, as I'd like to backup these articles and possibly put them up somewhere else. Thank you. CanbekEsen 03:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep No one seems to be denying that the subjects of these articles are notable; the only concern seems to be with the quality of the articles, which isn't the concern of AfD. Maxamegalon2000 05:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Quality of the article is not a reason to delete it. I do know a little about Go, and this is a very notable tournament. It would without a doubt pass WP:NN, however I cannot supply the links because the sources are going to mostly be Japanese. I will work on this. --Selket ^Talk 06:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, and consider updating the top of WP:AFD with big flashing red letters that AFD is not WP:CLEANUP. -- Neier 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • That's a little strongly worded. The article space is not for charts unaccompanied by a single sentence, either. Some semblance of a stub should have been written before these things were added. Dekimasuよ! 13:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Perhaps; however, it is a disturbing trend recently where AFD is being used as a five-day timed "cleanup now" tag. It is not just this discussion, and I've made similar remarks in others because I think it is a real problem with AFD and Wikipedia, currently. Regarding this particular article, it was categorized before the AFD tag was added, so context was there, albeit a click away. Neier 22:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Neier 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep If articles aren't good enough, improve them or let someone else improve them. Deleting them only makes it that much harder to start a new one. Fg2 07:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Saying that they can be cleaned up is one thing, but the quality of these articles could be taken as a reason to delete. Things like 19th Kisei come really close to speedies under Template:Db-nocontext. It is really not acceptable to rely on readers getting all of their context from an article that isn't even linked to on the page. If these were listed at articles for creation in their current state, they would never be added. Suggest userfy until this problem has been straightened out. Dekimasuよ! 13:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Needs improvement, but I can't think of any policy or guideline that would demand a deletion. Pax:Vobiscum 10:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.