Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2006 FIFA World Cup controversies

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No Consensus, though I would have liked to see it deleted - CrazyRussian talk/email 08:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006_FIFA_World_Cup_controversies

Article is POV (note the word blatant used a couple of times in it for example) and really doesn't deserve it's own article. At the very least it should be moverd to a subsection on the main worldcup 2006 article-- Tmorton166 (Errant Emote)  ^talk 13:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Contrary to my nom above now Very very weak keep it does read better now but I still think it is better suited in another article, on it's own it just looks like alot of POV rather than say criticism in a balanced article about refereeing at the world cup. -- Tmorton166 (Errant Emote)  ^talk 21:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete blantant POV. Article is not at the moment long enough to justify seperation from its parent article. Nothing salvagable content to merge either Ydam 13:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Keep Article is now completly changed from the version that was originally nominated. All the issues that I had at the start have now been pretty much resolved. (I'm sure the remiaining NPOV issues will take care of themselves in time) Ydam 16:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, blatantly fails WP:NPOV. Absolutely nothing here worth merging. --Coredesat 13:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, although something on the 3 yellow card controversy (as this can be objectively viewed) is possibly worth having (a subsection on main WC page?).--Binnor 14:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but modify. There is value is pointing out that certain events generated controversy. This can be done in a NPOV fashion. However, this article needs to focus on a factual recounting of the fact that there was controversy, not re-hashing the controversies themselves. For example - 1. Graham Poll mistakenly failed to send off a player after the 2nd Yellow. This generated the following controversy: a. Failure of the 4th referee to catch this {cite sources here}. 2. Ghana was awarded a penalty shot in injury time of the first half. This generated the following controversy: a. Video replays seemed to indicate misapplication of the rule. {cite sources here}. This would be a useful and informative article. The hard part is the subjective evaluation of what events should be included, but that's nothing new to wikipedia, now is it? --NThurston 14:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, for now at least. It could probably be rewritten after the event is complete, its too early for such an article. --Boochan 15:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, and adapt to NPOV standards. Also, another good idea would be to describe the alleged controversies in chronological order, instead of just mentioning them in passing. A more formal approach, with information such as date, time, and location of the match, as well as venue names etc would definitely help. It could be like a "controversy recap" in that it could provide the contentious referee calls made throughout the 2006 WC. As NThurston said, there is value in mentioning the controversial plays and calls, but it must be done in an organized manner and in keeping with NPOV rules. --macgirl 16:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, it serves no real purpose and is very POV orientated. - Deathrocker 17:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep, it serves a purpose although is currently very badly written. Cleanup and keep. --Guinnog 17:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I have begun to wikify and restructure, but this article needs more content. Feel free to add your info, as well as to re-evaluate with new NPOV structure and format. --204.113.19.8 17:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Note: This anonymous comment was made by NThurston who forgot to login.
• Keep or at the very least merge, for example this year's Cup has been marred by an inordinate amount of very poor refereeing. Georgeslegloupier 17:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, could easily end up being POV rants, but doesn't have to be. Well done it could be very informative. - Jon Stockton 17:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep, I think it can be cleaned up... --Ori Livneh (talk..contribs) 18:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge It can be cleaned up, and FIFA's president has now joined in criticism of the referees. However the refereeing problems are the only significant controversy so far, none of the other topics are notable. The number of yellows handed out far surpasses previous records, and the matches aren't even over yet. Xombie 18:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep / Merge I have only read it after N Thurston's restructuring efforts, but it seems to me that the POV is in the eye of the beholder. I read it as an informative piece, and it came across that way. More detail would definately help it seem more POV though.
• Week keep / cleanup - less POV, more neutral, accurate, factual information. --Ouro 19:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, there are human mistakes, anybody can do them. This article is very POV. Gadig 20:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as notable, but cleanup or rewrite to conform to WP:NPOV. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, article's purpose seems less about information, more about whining. PHF 21:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: In response to Starghost and Gadig's thoughts - The purpose of this article is to document that there were mistakes made and there was a lot of whining about the officiating. This is very different from actually being a POV whining page. This page should not be a forum for people to say "my team got ripped." Rather, it is to say that many people felt that a particular mistake, event or action caused a lot of discussion among followers of the tournament. I know this is a very fine distinction, but it is a very important one. I fail to see how documenting facts surrounding an argument is POV, just because it involves documenting an argument. I agree that it still needs a significant rewrite, but maintain that it is notable and can be NPOV. --204.113.19.8 22:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is important to note that some of these actions have led to consequences that impact the event. Graham Poll was a likely candidate to referee the final, but that is now very unlikeley. Finally, it's not all about the refereeing. There have been other meaningful controvesies surrounding this event that need to be documented. --204.113.19.8 22:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You are saying that the article is supposed to document mistakes. To afirm that there really were mistakes in most cases is POV (to say there's something fishy about the number of fouls between BRA and AUS is misleading, to mention a 3rd yellow card doesn't deserve it's own article). You say it's supposed to document the whining. Newsflash, fans get upset when their teams lose. You say other controversies are meaningful or notable. I disagree. I also think giving the spotlight to some of the controversies unintentionally validates them, therefore stepping over that fine distinction you mentioned. PHF 00:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:SOAP; unverifiable and/or non-notable refereeing errors are not the basis of an NPOV article in an enyclopedia. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete was deleted from the main world cup page for problems with POV, one mans controversial call is another persons great call, one only needs to read two different newspaper articles to determine that. Batman2005 23:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Batman2005. POV essay going nowhere fast. Australia call the penalty a controvery, but Italy don't. Same applies to all the rest. Intrinsically POV and poised to turn into a full blown Conspiracy Theory WP:NOR fail. Some parts - the record number of sendings-off in one game, for example - need to go in 2006 FIFA World Cup trivia section, but the interpretation of this as a "controversy" should be left to the reader, not rammed down their throat. --DaveG12345 01:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

World Cup trivia section? That would be 2006 FIFA World Cup miscellany. Carcharoth 07:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and review later after tournament has finished. By the way, I got very confused about what looks like an earlier deletion of this article. See the deletion log here. I tried to find a discussion about this, but failed. Can someone confirm that this article did indeed get deleted and then undeleted? Carcharoth 01:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It was a subsection of the World Cup 2006 article, check the archives and you'll find the discussion where it was deleted as POV.

My bad, that was me ^^^^. Batman2005 13:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That makes no sense (and you didn't sign your comment). Deleting a section of an article is a totally different process to deleting an actual article. I definitely saw a red link at some point, so I want to know what got deleted, by who, and when, whether it got recreated or undeleted, and why I can't find any "paper trail" showing what happened! Carcharoth 07:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, Looking at the date in the deletion log, and seeing the date of creation of the article, I see that this is in fact a recreation of already deleted content. An admin earlier speedy deleted the article as "patent nonsense". The article probably looked different then, but as non-admins cannot see deleted content, we have no way of looking at the history. Does this affect the debate? Was it improperly speedy deleted before? Can it be speedy deleted now as a recreation of deleted content? To answer the last question, this debate already means that speedy deletion because of recreation is not an option. Carcharoth 07:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Continue to improve the article as far as NPOV and references are concerned. It's a very useful reference, especially in the context of the ongoing debate whether video should assist in refereeing football matches: Many of the controversies hinge on what the replays show. Also, historians and future Wikipedia users will want to consult the controversies pertaining to individual matches, or issues such as the Togo players threatening to strike over compensation, or their coach leaving the team in their support. The issue of hair-pulling during a goal at the England-Togo match is a good example of a controversy not resulting from a referee's decision, and one that a referee may well be expected to miss but which affected the score -- a fine addition to the historical record. -- Mareklug ^talk 01:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There is absolutely no possible way this article can ever be NPOV. Personally, I think Australia got screwed today, but Italians would likely disagree. Which side is correct? Any answer that can be offered is inherently NPOV. Resolute 02:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep but adapt to POV regs. Article necessary especially in light of the debate on usage of technology in football. Clean up and keep.--203.199.202.97 04:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)BalsNDolls.
• Keep as per comments from Mareklug. It would be good to have a record of what has caused controversy, even though it may be just a "portal" to media references and broadcasted "action replays". --ric_man 06:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but as said above, needs a bit of cleanup. Just stating the word 'controversial penalty' means very little - controversial to who and why? , although if links to relevant articles and clips could be provided. Examples such as the 3 yellow cards are unavoidable and even FIFA acknowledge that these are real 'controversies' and are definately worthy wiki topics.
• Comment - please note that this article was initially a recreation of previously deleted content, though it presumably has improved since then. It would be nice if an admin could somehow merge the page history of the deleted page into the page history of the recreated article, so that everyone can see the full history of the articles written on this subject. Carcharoth 07:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Merge the useful stuff, and Weak Delete the rest. What "controversies" were there in previous FIFA World Cups that would warrant a separate page like this one? The unusual occurrence of 3 yellow cards to the same player is discussed elsewhere, and this is notable for not having occurred before. The T&T pay dispute is also notable and is discussed elsewhere. These should be migrated elsewhere and merged with other similar text if possible. However, it's not unusual to have refereeing decisions that caused discussion among fans of the game. Such decisions would likely occur in every World Cup and whether they were dubious or controversial can be strongly POV. No good criteria exist for selecting dubious refereeing decisions. Such a list could be very long indeed! Most of the article lacks references. The article lacks the time the various refereeing "controversies" occured and thus it is more difficult to substantiate them. Finally, the user that created the page has made no other Wikipedia contributions. --B.d.mills 08:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but expand (at tournaments completion), and watch for sources and word selection. Currently working on formatting/sources at the moment, to improve the quality of the article. --Killfest2 09:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but rewrite where necessary. This subject is encyclopaedic. --A bit iffy 10:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep for the moment, but when the dust has cleared on the tournament (which should allow for some more NPOV to come into proceedings) it might make more sense to merge the useful stuff into articles on the players/referees etc and delete the irredeemable bits. BigHaz 10:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete fails WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, and a whole 'nother bowl of alphabet soup... terrific example of what does not belong on an encyclopedia... unverifiable, original reserach... whole thing should be scrapped hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 11:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

CommentI dont think you can cite original research in fairness, the content is from proven sources - specifically the FIFA website. Also it is a relation of actual events which IMO does not constitue research but observation. I thinkthe important question is does the content belong here or split up and distributed between the other FIFA 2006 articles as criticism (for example).

I believe I can cite the lack of original research as the article fails WP:NOR in that the FIFA citations (with the exception of the citation of the Sepp Blatter comments) explain the rules and some editors have taken it upon themselves to interpret the rules themselves based on what they saw (all of the "appears to show" analysis is original research). Perhaps I was a bit hasty in saying the whole thing should be scrapped, as the bit with Togo, and the comments by FIFA officials could certainly be distributed appropriately (not criticisms, so much as news) elsewhere. However, these few bits of encyclopedic information do not excuse the completely POV OR nature of the article hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 12:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, upon further review, I'm going to vote Keep for now per others, so we can have a reference point for all of this, as the competition isn't even over yet. Once over, we can collaborate and write it in such a way that it'll be encyclopedic and a great addendum to the 2006 FIFA World Cup article, as the yellows have been flying like crazy. Having said that, I plan on deleting some of the obvious POV passages for now. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 12:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've spent a bit of time on the article today and have researched all of the sources and citations, and I'm going back to my original Strong Delete vote; I actually tried to justify what should and shouldn't be included by using stringent WP policy, but was unable to, given the nature of the sources and incidents. I had to interpret the sources and citations from WP policy, but it was my view of whether or not the sources were NPOV or not, as it's so subjective. Therefore, much of the editing I intended to do was compromised. One can see the talk page for a look at what I was trying to do in remaining NPOV and NOR. Certain incidents, however, such as the three yellows, the record number of cards, and the Sepp Blatter comments should be merged into the article where appropriate. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 16:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I see what you are all saying here and perhaps the title 'controversy' is a little mis-;eading. I think the thought of the original and cirrent authors is to highlight areas of dispute / human error in the 2006 finals. If 2 newspapers take a different view over something (eg the final seconds penalty in the AUS / Italy game) then it is obviously a dispute of interest. THe article does provide an objective view of that (and all the other) incidents (or just about anyway) in my opinion. Taking the example of that penalty again I don't think saying one team find it a controversy and one team don't is fair. I watched the match and am impartial (supporting neither team plus England are unlikely to play either of them) and think that it was a contreversial decision - not because it was wrong but because of the outcome from it -> Italy scored and won the match. Now even if it is a foul (I personally think not but that is your own opinion) the decision would be contreversial. It is the timing and the oucome that determines it!!! Some of these commments are response to bits and pieces up the page so I stuck it down here for ease. -- Tmorton166 (Errant Emote)  ^talk 14:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete I deleted the original red link to this article a few days ago because I feared the article would be POV-a-go-go, and so it has proven. This can only be, as all football (soccer) related discussions turn out, to be one sided arguments without citations or evidence. This article would not be accepted in any other form, it should not be accpeted just because it's football or an ongoing event. Delete without hesitation doktorb | words 15:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As a fan, you can't deny there's been controversy, mainly of officiating. Mention it on another page, but it's irresponsible to keep this sort of POV backwater. Crunk 16:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep, maybe change section titles, especially "errors" as that's subjective POV. haz (user talk) 16:31, 27 June 2006
• Keep, tidy up, and link from the World Cup page A valid article idea - just needsw to be improved and properly linked.Robertsteadman 19:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep, this controversy is part of the sport. At one point in the article, about the Italy v Australia, there is mention of a Italy v South Korea match in 2002. So, there is interest in understanding what are the claims surrounding that match. This article will be reference to future sport disputes. It is an integral part of the game, despite FIFA and all trying to hide or ignore some blatant, factual mistakes, like the 3 yellow cards to the same player. --JoaoCastro 21:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, controversy and discussion on sports are a essential part of it. It as a vital role because it explains the context of the Wolrd Cup --Job 02:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment It does not "explain the context" of anything. Any pub bore can waffle about how such a ref is this or that - the facts are thin when opinions rule a topic like this. This article has no independent view point, just conjecture and bias. It should be deleted doktorb _words^deeds 07:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, but definitely needs a lot of work.. Vanky 09:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - give it a chance. violet/riga (t) 12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep; the controversies are current news just as much as the actual match results are, and definitely a subject that has scope for encyclopaedic coverage. 84.70.98.78 13:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - it is largely POV, as it stands now. Apart of a couple of matches, all of the other claims are dismissible, and not requiring an article.--Panairjdde 13:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and rewrite to conform with WP:NPOV and to cut down the excesses. I think it will be sufficient to cover each controversial event in a few sentences, noting what the event is, the opposite viewpoints over the controversy and some references, without going through all the details. 2006 FIFA World Cup miscellany should be a pretty good reference. --Pkchan 15:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep / HOLD - This article surely cannot be deleted until after the world cup is finished, only when it has finished will we be able to see what the article is like. --Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 18:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't you think it would be better to wait for the end of the WC to write the article? Reasoning with cold heads will show what are controversies and what reactions after a sour defeat.--Panairjdde 21:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
    • well its to late for that now its been written so there is no point in deleting it to start again--Childzy _talk ^contribs 14:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - The article is POV, most "controversies" are not notable and can someone explain why all but two of them involve Australia? GhePeU 19:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - This article could go on forever and not just for this world cup. Besides a page like this is controversy in itself.
• Strong keep - The article contains information presented encyclopedically: it is encyclopedic information. Why delete?! Velho 00:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It needs a thorough copy edit but there is notable content here that could benefit the Wikipedia reader/researcher with a good rewrite and better referencing. -- Alias Flood 03:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete POV, NN, etc. - Mike МиГ 03:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Fails WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information. Bits of unrelated trivia culled together into one article. Also major problems with WP:NPOV. The so-called section of "Disputed calls" essentially accuses referees of making mistakes on those plays. --Madchester 07:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Sorry, but I have just read through every objection to this article and can find none that warrant its deletion. Sure, the article may currently have POV issues, but take a look at Stephen Colbert at the 2006 White House Correspondents' Association Dinner which is an article which should scream POV, but doesn't, due to the tireless work of a number of editors. I believe that this article has potential to become a very good article about a relevant topic. NPOV is not a criterion for deletion! MyNameIsNotBob 10:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. There is no reason to delete this. Besides, even if there is POV in it right now, there won't be in the long run. Time will always be able to iron out these things, and this article will not be an exception. This is a valid article, despite it being POV-sensitive. —Michiel Sikma (Kijken maar niet aanraken) 14:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. A number of people are putting effort into improving this article and sorting out NPOV and verifiable source issues. Increasingly relevant and valuable supplement to the World Cup topic. Believo. 03:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The title itself sounds like an invitation to a debate, but I would prefer that such controversial edits take place in this article rather than elsewhere (that is if they must take place at all). Also once the tournament is over it will probably be easier to determine what is of relevance and what should be removed. --Oden 16:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. As per other comments. The controversies are part of the 2006 FIFA World Cup.. and unless we want the main article to get even larger than it already is, we'd want to keep this page. -Tcwd 23:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. NPOV issues with this article can and will eventually change. Some calls can be proven correct/incorrect due to the TV replay available these days. With quite a few of these calls, it is certain that a mistake was made because of the replay. That is objective. You cannot dispute reviews that give certainty of an event. -User:CunniJA
• Keep It is perfect, just needs maybe a modify or two but really its great, absolutly keep. 12:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abreuzinho (talk • contribs).
• Keep History is never perfect. Having a Wikipedia article on this means that 10, 20 years down the road, we have records, accounts, testimonials of what happened 10, 20 years ago. This will mean Wikipedia has information on this because it interests fans. This will mean that people will visit Wikipedia because that information is there. As like there are two sides to a coin, there are two sides to history as well. If we delete this article because it is not neutral, then we may as well delete those articles on World Wars, etc. -- mh 13:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. Will (message me!) 16:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup to remove weasel words, POV, and the like. This has a lot of potential and use. Beginning 01:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.