Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/10 Tenths Motorsport

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Unsigned comment was discounted. Xoloz 16:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 10 Tenths Motorsport

Non-notable internet forum. No independent, non-trivial, third-party sources available. Recury 16:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: On the point that ten-tenths is non-notable - this is incorrect. Tenths is one of the biggest internet forums for motorsport alongside such sites as Motorsportforums and Speed channel's forums. Tenths has previously had its own radio show run by Globecast Radio, and has a number of high profile members who obviously give tenths notority - including Bobby Rahal, Martin Haven, Robert Huff and Paul O'Neill just to name a few.

On the point that no third part sources are available - firstly I ask that any decision on this is postponed as the person that created the page is currently unavailable, and it would be unfair not to give him chance to name any sources.

Secondly, the only element that is unsourced is the history to the site. The other sections (eg. the present content of the site) is easily verified just by looking at the site and seeing what is there, a primary source which is therefore undisputable.

Thirdly, I state that internet forums are extremely difficult to find sources for - on the whole the only source can be the site itself. There are many other examples on wikipedia where internet forums are also without independent sources to clarify their origins, and to delete them all for this reason would destroy the category. (for examples, Christian Forums, E-Sangha has no sources as regards history, X-Entertainment has no independent sources - these being three examples from three random selections from the category list) Asp 10:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

There are many articles on internet forums on Wikipedia right now because many are created, but many are deleted as well. Almost none of them pass WP:V for the reason you point out: there just aren't many of those kinds of sources available for all but the most popular forums. The policy is pretty clear on this however, saying, "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." Recury 13:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

A full deletion of the entire article would be a severe step for just one section that is presently uncited. Suggest therefore tagging article appropriately until the editor who created it can justify his sources, or alternatively another editor finds a source, as per the WP:V procedure. Asp 15:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it would be exactly in line with Wikipedia policy. The topic has no independent, non-trivial, third-party sources, so there should not be an article on the topic. Recury 16:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

FromWP:DEL:

This article has not yet been given opportunity to test if it is truly "unverifibiable", by terms of the WP:V : "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, a good idea is to move it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the {{fact}} template, or tag the article by adding {{not verified}} or {{unsourced}}."Asp 18:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What the hell? I am following the procedure on WP:V, I've already quoted it twice to you. The burden is on you to find some independent, non-trivial, third-party sources or else it is safe to assume that there aren't any, in which case WP should not have an article on this topic. It isn't that complicated. Recury 18:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I accept that at the moment the article does not have an independent source, it is not safe to assume that there aren't any until it has been listed as unsourced for a reasonable time to allow an editor a chance to provide references. That is why I am proposing that the article is kept but tagged appropriately to give this chance to happen. If that doesn't work, then we can come back here. Asp 18:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The AFD lasts for at least 5 days, that is pretty reasonable. If multiple good sources are found before then, then obviously I'd consider withdrawing the nomination. But like I said, the burden is on you guys. Recury 18:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete No media mentions, no print mentions, no notability....nothing is verifiable by multiple, independent, reliable, third-party sources. --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 20:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: notability could well be established - a google search does provide many results, famous users exist, above mentioned radio project is a definite media mention, and if article is verified the sites involvement in developing "skins" is a notable feature in itself.

Notability is really only a secondary issue here. The main issue is the verifiability concerns. Recury 13:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Lack of sources is a major problem with this article in general, however, time should be given to see if verifability can be established - particularly as it is reported above that article creator is unavailable and he will obviously be best placed to add citations if possible. Therefore agree with tagging for cleanup, but only for minimal period (2-4 weeks), and if no progress is made to then relist for deletion.--81.102.182.17 12:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether the original author is here or not doesn't matter. If the forum is really as notable as you guys claim then anyone should be able to find good sources for this easily. And (I'm going to go out on another limb here and assume that no one has written a book about your forums) how long does doing a few internet searches take? A few minutes? Half an hour tops if you're slow? Recury 13:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Neutral I see nothing wrong with ten-tenths having an article on wikipedia, but it should make sure that some of the facts are correct in the article. For example it says that ten-tenths was one of the few sites 'approved' to use the new vBulletin software. Which is incorrect, anybody could use the software as long as they paid for it, no 'approval' necessary. Also Craig Antill didn't come up with the idea of co-branding, MotorsportForums.com was co-branding its own forums for approx 9 months before ten-tenths launched its own version and then only when Jelsoft (the makers of vBulletin) included it as a standard software feature. (Declaration: I'm the owner of Motorsport Forums which could be deemed a competitor site thus I'm reluctant to edit the article itself I could be seen not to be neutral in the matter)

• Delete A week since nomination has seen only the addition of links to its own projects, without any outside sources confirming verifiability. Tewfik^Talk 19:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Brian. - Valarauka(T/C) 00:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)