Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Übersite

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Mackensen (talk) 21:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Übersite

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Übersite (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fails WP:V by having no independent, third-party sources. No indication that anyone who isn't a user of this site gives a damn about it. Recury 17:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." By this definition, any and all references to ANY website in particular should be removed, as there are VERY few published third-party works about existing webpages/websites. Any Wikipedia reference to a specific website would probably be written by users who frequent those websites themselves. The deletion of Ubersite alone because it isn't "Verifiable" is ludicrous. Also, the statement "No indication that anyone who isn't a user of this site gives a damn about it" is completely out of line, and should not be taken seriously to merit a deletion. I would seriously consider revoking the moderator status of the user "Recury" because of his childish and selfish comments on this discussion board, since his comment suggests a deletion solely because of personal biases against Ubersite.com ~ Matt Maiorano —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.52.174.234 (talk • contribs) .
  • Verifiability is a bit funny policy to use for deletion debates, which is exactly why, down below there, I claim the site is not notable. But the thing is, fulfilling notability is also about fulfilling verifiability. Last I checked, websites themselves can be used to explain why they're notable (i.e., if they provide a count of users, we can believe that without outside verification). However, if the site itself says "hmm, we have this weak mention here and this weak mention there", it doesn't help with explaining the notability of the site. Notability is about cultural impact. Hope this site has it. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 21:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Has been referenced on CollegeHumor.com CollegeHumor Hotlinks Ref: April 20 2006 This counts as both an external reference, and an award of recognition, thus satisfying the WP:WEB conditions. CodeMalicious 01:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't say that one or two references on CollegeHumor in the hotlinks section counts as an external reference, per se. College Humor puts upwards of 30 hotlinks up per day, and many of those sites are nn enough, including many personal myspace pages. I think the spirit of the reference requirement deals with newsmedia articles, references in books, trade journals, etc. With regard to the 30,000 user argument. How many people from that number aren't "alters" or users who signed up to rate and then leave forever? How many post on a weekly basis? 100? 200? I can't count how many times I saw single users create 10, 15, 20 user names for whatever reason. JHMM13 (T | C) 05:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. No verifiable references and a very low traffic. Doesn't pass WP:WEB by any means. Michaelas10 (Talk) 17:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable and fails both WP:V and WP:WEB. Was getting around to working out what best to do with the article myself. Ollie 18:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a very notable site. In fact, I'm shocked and appalled at this. Tell ya what. I can damn well add some third-party sources, just you watch! Floaterfluss 22:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It is a valid article and i wuvs it 154.20.101.55 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. If floaterfuss can keep it neutral and unvandalised then I think it should stay...I have seen it in a couple of UK papers...the Guardian is the one I recall though I don't have time to back that up...Restepc
• Unless you really are trying to find sources for this page, delete per WP:WEB and Alexa's rank of 43,518. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 23:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, it is well referenced, and Ubersite has 183,000 ghits, while Ubersite has 14,300. --SonicChao ^talk 23:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Alexa ranking isn't good enough to delete a reference to a website with over 30,000 users. [1] If you have any other traffic measurements other than Alexa, we would certainly like to know. Furthermore, just because a select few Wikipedia moderators don't like the website, it doesn't give you the right to delete it. If you're sick of the vandalism, block the page from being edited by anonymous users. For further unedited thoughts on this matter from the users at Ubersite, I would strongly recommend reading this: [2] ~ Matt Maiorano
  • I agree that "magnet for vandalism" is not a good enough reason for deletion. If it were, George W. Bush should be up for deletion. On the other hand, I don't think the burden of providing references is on the administrators here, it is on the writers of this article to provide enough respectable secondary or tertiary sources that discuss whatever is in the article. If that can't be provided, it is tough to make a case for keeping the article. JHMM13 (T | C) 05:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • My point is that the "Alexa Test" is discouraged by Wikipedia as a reason for deletion. Alexa is flawed, and if the moderators are unable to provide another source for measuring site traffic to back up Alexa, then a reason like "low traffic" cannot be used. I'm not asking the moderators to provide anything other than a better traffic measurement. There needs to be proof on both sides here, and right now, I have not seen any reason to delete the page apart from personal bias and a source that is discouraged by Wikipedia itself. As for notability, there may not be very many news articles that mention Ubersite, but it cannot be discounted that it has been mentioned by Maddox, linked to from Collegehumor.com, entensity.net, and a plethora of other websites that cites Ubersite.com as a source of entertainment. Granted, some may see Ubersite users as crude, crass, and childish, but that is completely subjective. So far, I have not seen one SOLID reason as to why it should be deleted. I'm not even sure what harm it's causing in letting it stay either, apart from certain aspects that people may not agree with on moral grounds. The morality of Ubersite, however, is not in question. I do believe that the page should be cleaned up. There is a lot of unnecessary information in there. The moderators who are hellbent on having this page deleted need to get off their high horse and realize that there are about 30,000 people who want it to stay. ~ Matt
    • First of all, if you're going Wikilawyering, it would give a better impression if you'd sign your posts. =) Secondly, ultimately, we're not concerned with the content of the site. That's of secondary importance. We do have a reason why this site is being considered for deletion; specifically, we're questioning the worth of the external mentions of this site. Was the mention of Collegehumor.com remarkable? Or entensity.net? Did these mentions affect the lives of people? I have, however, read a sizable chunk of The Best Page in the Universe (which I assume you're referring to with Maddox) and, well darn it, I completely missed the mention of this site. In other words, do you have any remarkable references from sites that actually have authority? As for "30,000 people who want it to stay", can you cite a poll on your site, and explain the polling method since the article claims there are only 8200 verified unique accounts? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
    • There are so many blatant logical fallacies in EVERYTHING you say, that we will only be going around in circles. This whole discussion is moronic on so many levels, it's dizzying. All I'll say is that there has not been anything "remarkable" about an "authoritative" internet user like Maddox that has "affected the lives" of people outside of the internet. I'm done here, so please continue with your single-mindedness and backwards logic. ~ Matt Maiorano
      • Maddox wastes book store shelf space, among other things. Anyway, since I'm obviously clueless and I'm usually the first one to admit it, I'd really love it if you'd enlighten me where, exactly, my logic fails, and in what way. It is my intention to comprehend; if you just resort to saying my logic sucks, I'm not really any wiser. That's why I'd really appreciate it if you'd tell me why, in your opinion, my arguments are not logical. Oh, and please sign your posts. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Ok, I'll bite. You say that the content is "of secondary importance" when that is EXACTLY what is being called into question. You ask how the site is notable, when there is an entire portion about notable incidents involving the US Secret Service and several lawsuits brought against Ubersite (wouldn't you say that some poor law-office employee who had to file all that paperwork had their lives affected by Ubersite? I would.) You ask for something "remarkable" from a third-party source, knowing full well that there is NOTHING remarkable written about ANY website from a third-party source. Even if there was, it would be too easy to denounce it as "ALMOST remarkable". How are we supposed to voice our opinions about a matter that we care about, when you are asking for completely unreasonable information? As users, we don't have access to "polls", statistics, and the numerical information you're asking for. The only person who DOES have that information is Bart Cilfone himself, and I think he has more pressing matters to deal with than the existence of a Wikipedia page. If your logic ISN'T bad, then your rhetoric certainly is. Pick one. On a side note, I've just figured out how to sign my posts. 24.52.174.234 22:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
        • The deletion nomination, last I checked, concerns notability of the site, not notability of site users. Notability of the site is all that matters in this debate. Has the site been subject to USSS raid, or just some unaffiliated user? Did the newspaper headlines say "Übersite user placed on no-fly list"? Did the headlines say "Übersite user pleads guilty in a rape case - site admin flabbergasted"? Also, I fail to see what's so illogical asking for more sources, even when, as you admit, there's none; I ask the same stuff about all articles. Hey, some other article subjects gladly provide that stuff, even when I didn't know that stuff existed! Believe me, if you provide such proof, I'm more than glad to change my opinion in this debate; such things has happened before and will undoubtedly happen in future. Imagine what would happen if I'd nominate, say, Rush Limbaugh article. Heck, he's completely unknown here. I don't know damn about him. I don't even know the guy exists. People would give me a bunch of really good sources in three seconds flat. A moment later, I'd be "Oops! My bad! Sorry!"... And why is it unreasonable, if many other article subjects are very easy to verify, anyway? Try to demolish this logical conclusion with your logical sledgehammer, now that you have it all polished: "Unremarkable information does not generate external sources. Lack of external sources means finding information is difficult and, to the searcher, frustrating. Site X claims finding information is unreasonable. Therefore, Site X suffers from lack of external sources. Therefore, Site X is unremarkable." --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 23:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
          • I believe WWWwolf is being extremely judgmental as to the extent of remarkability. Who is to say what is important? If even one person could find something useful from the Ubersite article, would you not say it is important, and therefore remarkable, if only to that one person? Say, hypothetically, that a college student decided to do an art project based on the growing medium of MSPaint. Ubersite has been an integral part of the internet phenomenon, and depriving that person of any information they could use, well, it's just mean. As long as Wikipedia has the server space to maintain such a page, which they most certainly do, there's a purpose to having the Ubersite article, if only for a select few. And you can't argue that. You can't say that no person will ever want to find information on Ubersite.
          • And as far as your argument on notoriety, that the site is relevant, not its users...you obviously don't understand what Ubersite is. Ubersite is a forum where people convey their personal thoughts and stories. Without the site users, there is no site. Literally, Ubersite would not exist without the myriad personalities that freckle its many users. If I may use a simile, that's like saying George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson...all the great forefathers of America...that's like saying they don't matter, that the end result of America is all that counts. But America wouldn't be America without those voices. Same goes for Ubersite. CodeMalicious 11:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
            • Notability is not subjective. WP:N says a topic is notable if it has been been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself. Given that no published works have been cited either here or in the article, I don't think that you can accuse WWWwolf of being judgemental. Ollie 13:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • And before you go off on "unreasonable information", I say that it's unreasonable because no matter what we throw at you, you and I both know that you'll still end up saying what you've been saying for the past three hours, so it's pointless. 24.52.174.234 22:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
        • We have a good procedure for withdrawing nominations. We do that if damning evidence to contrary materialises. It happens all the time. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 23:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment needs aggressive cleanup, its references are largely to its own content (aka WP:OR). Perhaps if it were about a quarter of its current length and stripped oif the namechecks it would be better. Guy (Help!) 00:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There has been a previous AfD for this article, the result was delete. Ollie 01:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete (again) per WP:WEB. Eusebeus 01:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep' Ubersite has over thirty thousand users, a one-time Alexa rank of ~14,000, influence on the MS Paint community, and is recognized by CollegeHumor and Maddox. I strongly suggest keeping this article. 01:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC) Axolotl2 01:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It's information, and this is an encyclopedia. There's no reason NOT to keep it.--The4sword 01:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information; Just because something is "information" doesn't mean it should be in Wikipedia. Basically, we can set limits to what kinds of information we include. We also set the bar; demonstrated lack of notability is a reason to delete an article. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 11:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep'Ubersite is the internet home of ilikesteak, and people need to know this kind of information. 24.3.75.105 01:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC) ilikesteak
  • If you are a frequenting member of a website, you're free to state so on your user page. It doesn't, however, mean it's a good idea to create an article on your favourite website just because you happen to like it. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 11:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep With a bit of editing, the article could be made less unwieldly. I'd say to keep, on the condition a bit of the self-indulgent fat be trimmed. Chris Conway 01:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - WP:WEB. A series of petty, nn incidents on an nn 'humour' site. Pete Fenelon 02:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. - Regardless of the site's content, it has a huge number of hits, a large user base, a steady flow of daily traffic, and an interesting design. There is no reason to remove the article simply because you don't like the site. That shows personal bias in this which is supposed to be an encyclopedia, an impartial collector of facts. 68.33.75.122 10:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC) HighVoltage900
  • I fail to see how claiming the article has no solid proof that the site is notable according to the Wikipedia guidelines is "personal bias"; I agree nominator is using a bit strong language but that's not (in this case, at least) enough to invalidate what they're saying. It would be more constructive to just ignore strong language provide evidence to contrary. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 11:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, almost-but-not-quite Weak, with the sockpuppetry keeping the Weak part firmly pinned against the floor. While superficially OK, the site's notability appears questionable. Claimed user count is almost within realm of notability IMO, but I'd also like to see proof that world at large likes it too. The content of the article gives me a headache and the culture investigations are possibly original research (in vein of Slashdot subculture articles that got deleted). It's hard to put this in words, but something in the article tells me that this site is not notable, while the stuff they've done could be, if you're really stretching the definition. I'm not changing this for better unless there's some concrete proof that this site is actually respected in any form anywhere else. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 11:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Again all you are doing is looking at your personal feelings of the site upon your inspection. Just because you don't like the KKK doesn't mean the entry on them should be removed. Likewise there are references to far smaller websites in this august collection of information, yet it is being harped on that it is '"almost" within the realm of notability'. It doesn't need to be Myspace or YouTube to deserve an entry. If someone feels they want to spend the time to write an entry about it, you don't need to waste your time looking it up and reading it if you don't like it. 68.33.75.122 16:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC) HighVoltage900
    • Why do you say that? No one has said "man i really hate this site lets delete it" so where are you getting that from? Recury 19:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Tell you what.... you tell me why this [3] isn't up for deletion. This page has no notability either, it fails your precious "Alexa Test" (Ubersite beats the hell out of [4]), yet there is nothing being discussed about its deletion. This is clearly a case of personal bias, and while you personally may not have any vendetta against Ubersite, it seems that there are other moderators who do. ~ Matt —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.52.174.234 (talk • contribs) .
      • Because we don't immediately delete articles that don't, on superficial side, look awful on the first glance. We haverules on what we delete right away; everything else is left around until someone decides to nominate it for deletion and the community consensus is that the article should be deleted. Also, deletion doesn't create a strong precedent; you can only use them as guidelines if the cases are extremely similar and you bring that up in the deletion debate. "This other article was kept/deleted too" is a tired, unhelpful argument unless you can demonstrate the relevance to this case. Feel free to nominate it separately, just make sure it won't sound like a retaliatory nomination based on conclusions from this AfD. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 21:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I will agree with you here. ~ Matt Maiorano
    • "... but I'd also like to see proof that world at large likes it too" We don't have to prove that the world likes it or respects it. Personal taste is not only an invalid reason for deletion, it is also completely idiotic to suggest it. This kind of arrogance and backwards thinking should be left out of discussions like these. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.52.174.234 (talk • contribs) .
      • You do; the prevailing opinion in Wikipedia just happens to be that if the site has no claims to fame - as in "the world at large likes it too" - then there should be no article. Here's a philosophical quandry: What exactly is the point of keeping something that's very little known and has had little impact to anything at all? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 21:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Do you mean to ask "What exactly is the point of keeping something that YOU know very little about and has had little impact to YOU personally?" Ubersite.com has users from America, the UK, Australia, and a number of other countries. How can you conceivably suggest that "very few people know about it" and it "has had little impact" on the world at large? Just because YOU and a handful of other people haven't heard about it is not a good enough reason to delete a website with nearly one-hundred-thousand written works by tens of thousands of people. Take an hour to yourself and look around on the internet for Forthewin's MS Paint masterpiece, Tom's P2P Networking article, and a number of other pieces that made their rounds across the internet and THEN try to tell me that they haven't made any impact on outside internet communities. In fact, there have been NUMEROUS cases where articles have been stolen and plagiarized from Ubersite.com and made their way to the most famous lists on Craigslist.com and Pointsincase.com, thus resulting in the existence of this website [5] which happens to have been written by an Ubersite user. To even begin to suggest that everybody has to LIKE the topic being discussed is the stupidest thing I've ever read. ~ Matt Maiorano
• Keep but just barely. The highest profile notability references to the site can be demonstrated by it's close ties to boredatwork.com (also run by me) and the notability of that site. The most notable external references to boredatwork.com are a few years old now: http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2003/02/03/editorial4.html http://www.collegejournal.com/successwork/onjob/20031210-maher.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108783,00.html . While boredatwork.com has had a handful of references in larger outlets, ubersite.com clearly has a lot more references in the small media space http://www.google.com/search?q=ubersite.com&hl=en&lr=&start=130&sa=N due to its less focused more chaotic nature that is more attractive to people in the blog world. The Ubersite Alexa ranking is lower now than it was two years ago and a lot of that is intentional due to reasons I can't elaborate here. I don't really see how that's relevant though as it seems the primary goal of the Wikipedia would be to provide a repository to store historical information that is otherwise unavailable in the common culture. Anyone looking to see what Ubersite is now would go to http://www.ubersite.com. People looking to see how Ubersite came to be could reference Wikipedia. At the same time, Ubersite does its own good job of maintaining a history, so I don't think the world will lose anything by not having an Ubersite article in Wikipedia. It seems to me that if Wikipedia is to survive in the future, it would need to have scores of articles like this or face irrelevancy brought about by a competitor with a deeper catalog. Bcilfone Bart Cilfone 23:15, November 25, 2006 (UTC)
  • *claps* now here's a good example of how to present a case in AfD. Now, we're getting somewhere. Anyway, allow me to clarify one more policy thing: Wikipedia doesn't want original research. Wikipedia should not have original, never-before-seen information about the site history; if the deletion of the article means there's loss of information, there's something wrong with the article. Neither is Wikipedia a web hosting service. So, I'd encourage the site user community to take whatever historical research information there is in the article and document the information elsewhere. I hope this is a fair warning, because this fact will stand whether or not the article is deleted. As for Wikipedia's irrelevancy, one must consider the stated mission of Wikipedia; Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopaedia, and not a web directory. (Wikipedia does coexist nicely with web directories, as well as more specific-purpose wikis. WikiMedia Foundation doesn't try to do everything, you know.) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 23:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Leave it to BartBart to come in and explain something a lot more rationally than I could ever hope to do. As for your comments, wwwwolf, I think that while Wikipedia may not be a web directory, there ARE unique websites out there that are worth knowing about. The layout of Ubersite is, at best, unremarkable. It is the community, however, that makes the site as noteworthy as it is (even if we cast ourselves in a negative light on a regular basis). The history of Ubersite can also be found on Ubersite itself, so no history would effectively be "lost", per say, if the article were to be deleted. The original intention of the Wikipedia article was to provide a compilation of Ubersite's history in one easy page, but the main focus still being the COMMUNITY and not the website itself. I suppose I failed in illustrating this idea originally because I was busy nitpicking at everything other people said, but that was the main issue I had with the idea of the article being deleted in the first place. If this is in violation of Wikipedia policy, then I suppose there really is no point in me arguing against it. Cheers. 24.52.174.234 00:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
• ""keep"" without Ubersite, i'd have nothing to do at work and they will fire me. *weeps* on a side note, go bears woo! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.104.204.36 (talk • contribs) .
• ""keep"" Without Ubersite, I'd have nowhere to post gawdawful pictures of myself. Flickr just doesn't have enough hits. Woo! 23:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)~Targa
• Strong delete - Fails WP:WEB, WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. Furthermore, most keep votes are premised on the idea of "Ilikeit" which is completely worthless as a rationale. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to catalogue one of a great, great many websites with 30,000 accounts. Whether or not you agree with the policies, they are the policy, and I don't see anything in this article or the site that would impel me to invoke WP:IAR to set the policies aside.--Elaragirl^Talk|Count 18:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
• I think it should be deleted only because Maltese totally sucks! And by totally sucks, I mean big old balls, dude.----Flack
  • LOL!!!!!! I liked when he said "balls". Recury 20:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.