Template talk:Artificial light sources

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There has been a request for my bot to rename all files to Template:LightSources - I want to make sure everyone is aware of that, I'll leave this here a few days before starting the job, it's on User:Tawkerbot if anyone wants to see the request. Tawker 08:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

See below. My edit has made this unnecessary, assuming others approve of the change.--Srleffler 05:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Please hold off on this, pending the discussion below.--Srleffler 07:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Bot is not going to do anything until consensus has been reached -- Tawker 07:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Simplification and refocus

This template had become large, unwieldy, and ugly. Trying to encompass all possible sources of light in one template is just not going to work. I have tried to simplify and refocus the template to cover sources of illumination (lighting) only. (But the edit was later reverted. My version is here.)

Note that I have also removed specific illumination sources that are covered by a more general article, e.g. Mercury-vapor lamp, Metal halide lamp, and Sodium vapor lamp are all types of High-intensity discharge lamp, and are all linked in the introduction to the latter article. There is no need to list them all separately in the template. The template should still remain on those individual articles, though, even though they are not specifically listed in it.--Srleffler 05:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you really let the discussion develop for a while before making that change, ehh? ;-)
In any case, I strongly disagree with your changes, so I reverted them. Let's let the discussion develop a bit further before taking such radical action, ehh?
Atlant 15:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I thought I would just be bold and do it. I'm fine with your reversion, though. Let's discuss it. What are we trying to achieve with this template? It seemed fine at first, but it has become extremely large. It seems problematic and not very useful to incorporate such a large template into so many pages. I can see the point of a narrower template covering sources of illumination (in the sense of lighting), but I don't really see the value of a massive template that covers every possible device or process that can emit light. There are better ways of dealing with big lists of things, like list pages. Perhaps we could make a list page with a very small template that links to it?--Srleffler 01:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Types of light sources

This is a very useful infobox - for a topic that can be confusing. Please comment on this proposed design - to standardize the general categories of lamps or light sources: (maybe delete "fuel lamps")

V O I D   S e e - n e w - s a m p l e - b e l o w
Fluorescent Compact FLuorescent (CFL) - Linear fluorescent Compact fluorescent lightbulb
Incandescent Halogen - A-lamp - Parabolic Aluminized Reflector (PAR) - Reflector lamp (R) - Bulged reflector lamp (BR)
Gas discharge High-Intensity Discharge (HID) - Mercury-vapor lamp - Metal-halide - Sodium vapor - HMI
Arc lamp Acetylene/Carbide lamp - HQI - Safety lamps - Xenon arc - Yablochkov candle
Fuel lamps: Candle - Gas lighting - Kerosene lamp - Limelight - Oil lamp
Other types Light-Emitting Diode (LED) (Solid state lighting) - Induction - Fiber optics - Neon - Plasma - Nernst lamp

-- [[User:Dogears|Dogears] (talk) 19:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This looks potentially useful, and is reasonably "clean", unlike the current version. You might also want to take a look at the version I did that got reverted. Both seem to me to be taking the template back to its original purpose: to summarize common forms of lighting. The problem with the current template is that it grew into a list of all possible sources of light, mixing together both devices and processes on equal footing. To prevent this from happening again, you might want to choose a more specific title for your template. I called my version "Sources of illumination", but perhaps a better title can be found.--Srleffler 01:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I would keep "fuel lamps" by the way. Lighting by combustion has been extremely important, historically.--Srleffler 08:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

So should we switch over to this one? Is there a better title? "Artificial light sources", 85% width? (see change) -- Dogears (talk) 08:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this template needs reorganizing. I like the direction this is going, but I'm confused by the groupings. According to the articles themselves, neon and fluorescent bulbs are a kind gas discharge lighting. Induction lamps are a kind of fluorescent lighting. Fiber optics don't actually generate light themselves. Acetylene lamps use combustion. It seems as though the old groupings are more accurate. SDC 09:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Your infobox is now smaller and seems more focused to "lighting". Some of the smaller lamp articles (which can be merged?) have been pulled out of the infobox, and it's a good idea that "The template should still remain on those individual articles, though, even though they are not specifically listed in it."
  • Lighting catalogs list fluorescent as a separate type, so it gets a separate heading. I think the induction lamp is a way to deliver power, it's not really a fluorescent light fixture type (see: Talk:Electrodeless_lamp), and needs to be edited (and changed back to "Induction lamp"). There's also circleline" round fluorescents. Neon is in a class by itself, a specialty. Fiber optics can be found in a lighting catalog and are still used for lighting effects on cruise ships and Vegas. Different incandescent lamps are listed by the bulb shape, but the article(s) need to be started.
  • Here's some small revisions to the proposed infobox, please make changes or comments:
-- Dogears (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed infobox 2.0

L i g h t i n g   and   L a m p s
Incandescent: Conventional - Halogen - Parabolic Aluminized Reflector (PAR) - Reflector lamp (R) Compact fluorescent lightbulb
Fluorescent: Compact Fluorescent (CFL) - Linear fluorescent
Gas discharge:  High-Intensity Discharge (HID) - Mercury-vapor - Metal-halide - Neon - Sodium vapor
Electric arc: Arc lamp - HMI - Xenon arc - Yablochkov candle
Combustion: Acetylene/Carbide - Candle - Gas lighting - Kerosene lamp - Limelight - Oil lamp
Other types: Induction lamp - Light-Emitting Diode (LED) - Fiber optics - Plasma - Safety lamp


I swapped "Neon" from neon sign to the more general neon lamp and moved it under gas discharge. I removed some duplicate links to incandescent and fluorescent articles. I put "safety lamp" under "other" because the category includes both antique combustion lamps and modern electrical ones. I renamed "Light bulb" to "conventional" so it can appear first and still be alphabetical, and also because that is a better name when classed with "halogen" and "PAR", both of which are also "light bulbs". --Srleffler 23:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It looks good. Would you prefer to use this one, which addresses the previous discussion, or the large template that was uploaded recently? The new one is more complete but I agree, that many items is better as a list. Some of the articles are much smaller than the infobox. -- Dogears (talk) 06:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should replace the template with this one, and make the old template contents into a List. I would then add a "see also" link to the list to every article that now has the template, and remove the template from articles that are not lighting-related. (It should stay on lighting-related articles even if they aren't included in the template, though.)--Srleffler 12:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Are plasma lamps gas discharge lamps? "Gas discharge" is used in the article to describe them. Also, is the purpose of this article to list only those technologies used for illumination? I'm not sure plasma lamps are used as such. I also suggest that induction lamps be placed with the fluorescent category. As the term is used, it always refers to fluorescent tubes powered by induction coils. It's explained in the article on fluorescent lamps. I'd place sulfur lamp in the other category. I never really agreed with the idea of putting the two technologies in the same article. Induction lamps really are a special kind of fluorescent lamp. Also, why was the reference to Nernst lamp removed? SDC 12:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, plasma lamps are gas discharge lamps. I would be OK with removing them. Nernst lamps were probably removed for the same reason as rushlights were. I presume both were removed as being historical types no longer in current use, and not commonly encountered. Whether this is a good idea is arguable, but I do think we need to keep this template trim. Restricting it to current and more important sources of illumination seems like the best way to do this.--Srleffler 17:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for including all light sources

Most of the light sources are artificial. It seems useful to add on the few natural light sources for the purpose of completeness. I have reorganized the template to place incandescents, fluorescents and LEDs near the top. Students and others learning about light are best served by having all the links in one place. Please merge Template:ArtificialLightSources into Template:Lightsources and keep what is already good intact.Anthony717 16:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The trouble is that the amount of content here is just too large to deal with in an "infobox" template. It's not an appropriate format for making a list of every possible source of light. This kind of material is much better dealt with on a "list" page.--Srleffler 17:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes and new pages

I have created a new page, List of light sources, to take over the content of both this template and {{Lightsources}}. Take a look—all the content is there, and correctly organized and expanded. For those who want a comprehensive list of sources of light, this is the way to do it. Unlike a template infobox, a list page can contain a large amount of items and stay organized, and easy to edit and navigate. The ordering of items is mainly based on this template before Anthony717's edits, because I felt the previous organization suited the list format better. Also, while Anthony did a great job of improving the appearance and adding content, he had a few of the light sources categorized wrong, and there were other errors. I hope that I have fixed all the errors, and now correctly categorized each light source. Note that some of these categorizations are not obvious. Read carefully before shifting something to what seems like a more obvious category. Note that neither radium nor tritium is a light source. They are ingredients in self-powered lighting and radioluminescent paint, but do not themselves emit light.

The creation of {{Lightsources}} and List of light sources has rendered this template redundant as well as misnamed, so I will replace the content with the more trim infobox version 2.0 above. The disposition of {{Lightsources}} is a separate issue that can be debated on that article's talk page. I strongly advise against using that template, as it is much too large to tack on to the end of any article.--Srleffler 04:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Lightsources

Template:Lightsources has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.
Note: I am not proposing to delete {{ArtificialLightSources}}.--Srleffler 01:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

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