Talk:ARPANET

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Contents 1 References in film and media 2 Intermediate state 3 First ARPANET link 4 Data rate 5 Wesley Clark 6 images? 7 Leonard Kleinrock 8 Date clash 9 Link speed 10 Controversy over invention of packet switching 11 Roberts and credit 12 Baran and Roberts 13 A wise point 14 Interesting factoid 15 Charles Herzfeld, Citation 16 Possible vandalism in progress 17 Sorry... 18 More vandalism

[edit] References in film and media

This section was removed, wondered why?

• The removal happened some weeks ago thru an anonymous edit and was followed by a bunch of vandalism. Probably the removal was vandalism too.

[edit] Intermediate state

This is an intermediate state. Eventually the stuff about the invention of packet switching is going to get moved to the packet switching page (just as some of this was moved here from the History of the Internet page), and more about the history of the ARPANet is going to get added here, as I have time to write it.. This is an improvement on what used to be here, though. Noel 08:07, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] First ARPANET link

Not sure where to put this (from November 21 and 1969):

The first ARPANET link is established.

--mav 05:54, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)~

I've expanded it. -- The Anome 09:25, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Data rate

I'm not sure about the nearby material that says they were connected "using modems": I think the link speeds were of the order of 56k, and the modems of that era were not even remotely near that speed (think 1200 bps): the links were more probably DS0 leased lines. -- The Anome 09:25, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No, "modem" is right - that's a generic term for a device ("modulator - demodulator") that transforms a signal in one form (in this case, a bit stream) into another form (analog signals in this case). The ARPANet modems were provided by ATT; BBN's hardware only included the high-speed serial interfaces. The lines were indeed leased special high-bandwidth lines (but I don't think the concept "DS0" existed back then), again, provided by AT&T. Noel 20:24, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

PS: When I said "high-bandwidth", I meant it in the technical sense (i.e. high band-pass), not as a synonym for "high bit rate" (although of course with the former it's easy to provide the latter). Noel 21:10, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

According to [1] "The T1 standard was developed in the United States in the early 1960's." This [2] says "Also in 1963 digital carrier techniques were introduced. [...] T1 quickly became the backbone of long distance toll service and then the primary handler of local transmission between central offices." So it's quite plausible that the circuit was part of a then-existing digital trunk system. However, it would be nice to have a reference which can settle this one way or another. -- The Anome 12:39, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[3] describes original link speeds as having been 56k. For 1960s modems, even 600 bps over an end-to-end analog connection was "high speed". The nearest other possible solution were the FDM interleaving solutions. But why would anyone install this, when T1 was commercially available from 1962 onwards? Allowing for bit-robbing, a single DS0 demultiplexed from a T1 would be 56k, exactly the data rates quoted in the source. -- The Anome 12:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Phil Karn also says here [4] that "Actually, the ARPANET backbone links were almost all 56kb/s." -- The Anome 13:05, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I simply don't know the details of how AT+T provided the bandwidth. It may well have been a breakout of a T1 line. I have looked through everything I have, and nothing says anything about it. I do know (from the BBN proposal, in response to the original ARPA ARPANET RFP) that the interface between the IMP and modem was two wires in each direction - a data line and a clock line. So I guess the bit recovery was done by the AT+T gear - maybe, because for all I know AT+T just carried those two signals through from one end to the other, mostly unchanged, and didn't do clock recovery at the far end of each link. Turning the bit stream into packets (framing - i.e. figuring out where the byte boundaries was, and then turning the byte stream into packets) was done by the BBN hardware in the IMPs. The AT+T "modems" (they didn't do everything we now think of modems as doing) were huge - at MIT (which had two AT+T lines early on, when I first became responsible for the IMPs at MIT, and a third later on) the AT+T gear was in a giant rack (about 6' high, and 2.5' square, which was mostly full of stuff). My guess would be that the bandwidth was provided in different ways, at different times and on different links, but that is just a guess. Sorry I can't help more - that's all I know and/or can find out. Noel (talk) 04:38, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wesley Clark

Well, there are a zillion links to Wesley Clark, and almost certainly all of them mean the general. So although I'd like to make it a disambig page, and then have separate pages for the general and the computer scientist, it's probably too much work to be worth it. If I can figure out the computer scientist's middle name, we can put his page under that (or. more likely, his initial), with a note somewhere on the main Wesley Clark page to refer to it. Noel 17:04, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I believe the MIT Wesley Clark you wish to disambiguate is Wesley A. Clark, as referenced here: Participants in the LINC Evaluation Program -- Tracy 10:25, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oooh, thanks for dredging that up! Noel (talk) 12:00, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] images?

source:The Computer History Museum ([http://www.computerhistory.org/copyright/ fair use])

source:The Computer History Museum ([http://www.computerhistory.org/copyright/ fair use])

[edit] Leonard Kleinrock

I e-mailed Leonard and he outlined that the following was incorrect in the ((cur) (last) 08:23, 4 Nov 2004 Jumbuck m (robot Adding:id)) entry:

This is what was originally in the entry: "Leonard Kleinrock had performed tests on store and forward message systems in 1961, and wrote a very important book in 1964 covering queueing theory and routing in store and forward networks, although this work did not include the concept of breaking a user's message up into smaller units for transmission through the network."

Leonard wrote to me with the following:

Dear Kim,

...

This is not true. In fact, in my July 1962 publication (see my website: www.lk.cs.ucla.edu) I talk about chopping messages into fixed length units and transmitting them separately over the link. That material also appeared in my December 1962 PhD Dissertation which was later published as the book that is quoted, "Communication Nets"; you can easily find the description in that book in Section 5.3. Importantly, you should note that my July 1962 publication was months ahead of Paul Baran's and years ahead of anything that Donald Davies did. Basically, what I did for my PhD research in 1961-1962 was to establish a mathematical theory of packet networks which uncovered the underlying principles that drives today's Internet.

I would appreciate it if you would correct the entry in that link.

Best of luck. Len Kleinrock

I have updated the page accordingly. However there does seem to be some dispute - so I would like updaters to consult with Lenoard Kleirock before making changes his e-mail address is at www.lk.cs.ucla.edu - it would be even better if we could get Paul Baran and Donalad Davies in the dialog to thrash this out amongst themselves - they could then propose a nice summary that would sort out any inconsistencies - So whoever wants to take this on please be my guest! -- Kim Meyrick 21:44, 10 Nov 2004

You need to be careful with Kleinrock's claims, because he has an axe to grind. If you read Baran's page, which I find to be equally incorrect, Baran claims all the credit. Alas, to talk to Donald Davies, you'll need a spirit medium, because he is no longer with us. Before he died, he did dispute Kleinrock's claim. And, needless to say, if you think Baran and Kleinrock are going to agree on a division of the credit, well...

As to the 1964 book, here's what section 5.3 says:

"The server picks the next message in the queue and performs one unit of service upon it (i.e. services this message for exactly Q seconds). At the end of this time interval, the message leaves the system if its service (transmission) is finished; if not, it joins the end of the queue with its service partially completed .."

And that is the entirety of what the book says about the topic. Although no details at all are given, the most plausible reading of what was meant is that some kind of link-local fragmentation/reassembly is being used, not end-end packets of the sort described in Baran's work, and now used in the Internet.

I have the 1961 PhD proposal, and I'll look at that now. However, I suggest you be wary about rushing in where angels fear to tread! I would have to go check Hafner's book, but my vague recollection is that she got it about right. Noel (talk) 02:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have now checked both the 1961 thesis proposal, and the 1962 RLE QTR - the former says nothing at all, and the latter has exactly the same language as the book (quoted above). It's worth noting that the book is basically entirely about queueing theory, and is not about engineering a data communication network. The examples given in the book are principally telegram networks, although trucking networks also figure in some cases.

I also checked Hafner's book, and she doesn't explicitly rate Kleinrock's contribution, although she implicitly seems to credit Baran and Davies with a key role in coming up with the idea of packet data networks. I think there's something in that - they definitely were thinking of practical data communication systems, whereas Kleinrock's work is very much focused on the theory of queueing, which obviously has a much wider application than just packet networks. And of course Licklider and Taylor were the people who actually had the vision to build a real network. Noel (talk) 04:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PS: DARPA's own history of the ARPANet (see article) nowhere mentions Kleinrock's work as a source of inspiration - but does prominently cite Baran and Davies. Not that I wholly believe that either (I think Roberts' quote about relying on Kleinrock's work is probably accurate), but more to show you that the picture painted by Kleinrock is not universally shared, and that you shouldn't rely on any one source. See also my recent comments at Talk:Packet switching on the subject of Kleinrock's proper share of the credit. Noel (talk) 02:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Leonard Kleinrock has responded with the following which i post on his behalf:

"Both comments by jnc miss the point. I was not suggesting that others not be mentioned. In fact, I include the contributions of Baran and Davies in every presentation I make regarding the history of the Internet Jnc's referral to bogus claims is amazing! It may be that he has not looked at the source documents. Anyone familiar with those documents would be able to provide a more balanced view of the early work than he has articluted." -- Kim Meyrick 18:00, 12 Nov 2004

I had to laugh at "I include the contributions of Baran and Davies in every presentation I make regarding the history of the Internet". If you look at every page he has linked to from his "The History of the Internet" links page, most of which he wrote, you will not find a single instance of Baran's name, and Davies is only mentioned once, as the originator of the term "packet".

I don't know which documents he is speaking of - I have read all the ones he has posted, and a great number more besides (although I don't have access to RAND's working papers, or the internal archives of DARPA). If he has more original, contemporary documents he'd like to post, I'd be happy to review them. Noel (talk) 22:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Date clash

Ah, the joys of people adding stuff to articles piece-meal. At ARPANET#Initial ARPANET deployment it says:

the first message ever sent over the ARPANET; it took place at 22:30PM on October 29, 1969.

and then later on it says:

The first ARPANET link was established on November 21, 1969, between an IMP at UCLA and another at SRI's

So how could a message have been sent on Oct 29 when the first link allegedly wasn't there until November 21? Alas, I don't have the time right now to ressarch this: can someone else straighten this out? Noel (talk) 00:41, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I see this is still an open question. I'll see if I can figure it out; I need to read to to swap in the protocol development stuff to flesh out that section (everything else is looking pretty good, now). Noel (talk) 04:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Link speed

According to [5]:

All who I have heard from agree that 50kb was the speed. There were experiments with a 230.4kb service but the concerns were with the economics of renting the lines and the overall computing capacity of the IMPs.

I know Mike Brescia well, he's a very careful engineer, so I would take his data as fairly definitive. I have left mention of the 230KB speed in the article, but said it was not much used due to cost/computing concerns. Noel (talk) 04:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy over invention of packet switching

It might be good to move this section to Internet history or perhaps start a new one on "ARPANET history" so that ARPANET could just be about the actual nature of the network without all the history.--Carl Hewitt 05:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

No thanks, Internet history has its own share of controversy, we don't need more! ;) But seriosuly, there's an article on Packet Switching, this information belongs there, and I'd support a move. --John R. Barberio ^{talk, contribs} 13:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, some of the history was previously in the article on packet switching until it was consolidated in ARPANET. Maybe the packet switching article should just be about the technology and we should start a new article on the history of packet switching?--Carl Hewitt 16:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

packet switching is currently small enougth that it can take an expansion of its history there, I don't see a need for a seperate article yet. Moving the section. --John R. Barberio ^{talk, contribs} 09:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Roberts and credit

I removed this quote from Larry Roberts:

Roberts' wrote in his Inernet Chronology that "Although the UK work convinced Roberts to use higher speed lines (50 KB) and to use the word packet, the Rand work had no significant impact on the ARPANET plans and Internet history."

because it frankly conflicts with other things he said, at other times and other places. E.g.:

I got this huge collection of reports back at the office, which were sitting around the ARPA office, and suddenly I learned how to route packets. So we talked to Paul and used all of his concepts (Norberg/O'Neill pp. 166)

which is completely 180 degrees away from the first quote!

I don't know for sure what's going on with him. I speculate that in part he's trying to buttress the role of Kleinrock (with whom he had shared an office at MIT, so they were/are old friends, and who has been on a campaign to try and claim credit for packet switching); in part, he also seems irritated (rightfully) at the common myth that "the ARPANET was created to survive a nuclear war". But in any event, with that level of self-contradiction, I don't think one can take anything he says (especially in recent years) as gospel. Noel (talk) 05:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baran and Roberts

Sigh - another place where the history books seem to disagree! Dream Machine says (pp. 276) that:

Meanwhile, Scantlebury had told Roberts one other thing in Gatlinburg. .. they had come across the work of am American who had -again- invented the packet network independently. Baran was his name ... Roberts knew Baran slightly and had in fact had lunch with him during a visit to Rand the previous February.

but Where Wizards says:

In December, 1966, when Larry Roberts arrived at the Pentagon ... he had never heard the name Paul Baran. (pp 68) Roberts also learned, for the first time, of the work that had been done by Paul Baran and RAND a few years earlier. (pp. 77)

and I would think they can't both be right. Although I assume the "previous February" above means February, 1966, since Gatlinburg was in October, '67, and I suppose it could have been February, '67 which was meant, which would remove that direct conflict. (Alas, Dream Machine gives no source, so I can't check to verify which one was meant.)

Still, even if it was Febuary '67 (removing the conflict), it's kind of mind-boggling that he could have had lunch with Baran in February '67, when Roberts was already working on the ARPANET (he'd started on that at DARPA at the end of '66), and neither one of them brought up the topic of networking. (I can just imagine the conversation: "So what are you working on now for DARPA?" "Oh, computer networking." "Oh really, I did a big project on that!" etc, etc.)

I shouldn't be surprised if Dream Machine has it right; Roberts probably forgot about it until someone found some old travel records, or something. Noel (talk) 09:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I found a source (probably the one Dream Machine used, but no way to be sure, but that doesn't matter much, since it is corroboration for what Dream Machine says): it turns out that it was February, '67. It's in Baran's oral history interview at the Charles Babbage Institute, pp. 37, but he's quoting from his contemporary desk diary, viz.:

"O'NEILL: When you say Roberts came out to RAND, you mean he visited? When would that be, do you remember?

BARAN: I really don't remember the dates, so I checked my old calendar (copy attached) and here is what I found: On Tuesday, 28 February 1967 I find a notation on my calendar for 12:00 noon Dr. L. Roberts. On Tuesday, 31 October 1967 I see a notation 9:30 AM to 2:00 PM for ARPA's (Elmer) Shapiro, (Barry) Boehm, (Len) Kleinrock, ARPA Network. On Monday, 13 November 1967 I see the following: Larry Roberts to abt (about?) lunch (time?). Art Bushkin = 1:00 PM. Here. Larry Roberts IMP Committee. On Thursday, 16 November 1967 I see 7 PM Kleinrock, UCLA - IMP Meeting."

So that does take out the conflict with Where Wizards (and confirms that Dream Machine had it right). Still, it leaves us the problem of why on earth Roberts went to see Baran after he started working on networking, unless it was to talk about Baran's work - and what on earth would they have talked about other than networking, anyway? I suspect that Roberts simply forgot (years later) about this. Noel (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Art Bushkin: I don't know how to make an entry here, and I don't recall the specific meeting, but I knew and worked with Paul Baran and Larry Roberts during that time period. Paul Baran testified before Congress during hearings (I don't remember when) on the subject of a National Data Center. The crux of his testimony was the fears of a National Data Center existing in single, large-scale computer were based on an erroneous assumption regarding the way that technology would emerge. Rather, Baran testified that there would emerge a distributed network in which many interconnected computers would create the effect of the feared National Data Center without a single central computer or locus of control. Baran's testimony and other writings, etc., greatly influenced my involvement in this field. As an intern at ARPA in the summer of 1967, and then as a consultant thereafter, I worked on privacy and security of information, and the early creation of the Internet (I invented nothing and was a very minor participant.). Baran was to me, and others, an influential thinker, and I recall speaking with him often about the use of the emerging technology, not just the network development. 24.250.118.155 23:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC) Art Bushkin

[edit] A wise point

BTW, that Baran interview (a few pages on) has some interesting thoughts on attribution, which I reproduce here because they are so incredibly apt:

My experience with innovations is that everything has a predecessor event or events. ... The process of technological developments is like building a cathedral. Over the course of several hundred years: new people come along and each lays down a block on top of the old foundations, each saying, 'I built a cathedral.' Next month another block is placed atop the previous one. Then comes along an historian who asks, 'Well, who built the cathedral?' Peter added some stones here, and Paul added a few more. If you are not careful you can con yourself into believing that you did the most important part. But the reality is that each contribution has to follow onto previous work. Everything is tied to everything else.

Too often history tends to be lazy and give credit to the planner and to the funder of the cathedral. Maybe we should take the care to avoid the simplifications and say, 'Okay, this person did this or did that, and that person did so and so.' No single person can do it all, or ever does it all. But we are lazy and tend to give all the credit to a single person most closely identified with an activity and forget all the others who really made it all possible.

Having been there myself :-), I an in absolute, perfect agreement with these sentiments. Noel (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting factoid

Davies found out about Baran's work from a MoD official after a presentation he gave at NPL in March, 1966. Source: Norberg/O'Neill, pp. 161. Noel (talk) 09:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Herzfeld, Citation

I added a bit about Mr. Herzfeld's statement on the impetus for ARPAnet. However, I have a hard time seeing where to put the links I used as reference. I admit ignorance of the protocol for citation (e.g., what I should make a note (named reference?), and what deserves simply an external link. Therefore, I will give them here, and anyone interested in polishing my contribution, please do, with my thanks.

I took the quote from an article at about.com. For credentials on Mr. Herzfeld, I looked to his entry at the staff pages of Potomac Institute.

That's kind of dangerous. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. For how to actually find good sources, see Wikipedia:How to write a great article. --Coolcaesar 20:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I've corrected where the article says Herzfeld was "director of ARPANET from 1965 to 1967" since the 'net didn't exist before 1969. Rick Smith 18:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible vandalism in progress

Some clown who clearly never read any of the early RFCs just moved the article to ARPANet, which was NEVER the title of the network. That constitutes original research in violation of Wikipedia's strict no original research policy. It may also constitute possible use of Wikipedia as a soapbox in violation of What Wikipedia is not. I am posting my message to that user below. To all admins tracking this article: I suspect that User:Nethac DIU is a troll who should be blocked for possible vandalism.

Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia core policies before making drastic changes, or they will be classified as vandalism and reverted, and you will be blocked as a vandal. These policies, particularly NPOV, are non-negotiable, according to Jimbo Wales and the Wikimedia Foundation. See Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.

If you actually bothered to review the early RFCs, nearly all of which are freely available online from the Internet Engineering Task Force, you would have realized the ARPANET was the standard spelling from 1972 onward. Yes, prior to 1972, the network was called the ARPA Computer Network or just the Network for short, but ARPANET (in all caps) became the dominant usage after 1972. And ARPANet was never in widespread use.

For examples of the ARPANET usage in 1972, see: [6], [7], and [8]. For an example of the earliest discussions on the ARPA Computer Network, see: [9].

We need an admin to clean up Nethac DIU's mess immediately. --Coolcaesar 20:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify further: The problem is that even if ARPANet may be the more grammatically correct usage, longstanding Wikipedia policy is to defer to the "common name" of a topic, even if that name is grammatically incorrect or politically incorrect. This is the same policy used by all major encyclopedias, including Britannica, Encarta, World Book, Americana, etc.

If Nethac DIU has an issue with that policy, he or she should directly contest it at Wikipedia:Naming conventions, but it is highly unlikely that anyone will support a change of the policy. Most Wikipedians recognize that in order for WP to gain acceptance and legitimacy, it will need to follow a few of the basic policies commonly used by other encyclopedias, including having a similar article naming system. --Coolcaesar 20:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've fixed the vandalism for now. The article is back at ARPANET. --Coolcaesar 20:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry...

Well, I were wrong. I thought ARPANet was the official name, and I've seen written ARPANet, with two last letters in lower-case. I'd never think that would make such a problem.

But then, ARPANet is incorrect because it is traditionally ARPANET, or just a non-standard spelling?

—Nethac DIU, complaints, suggestions?—
20:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More vandalism

I deleted "YOU SUCK" someone put in the middle of the article. I am a newbie to Wiki, but I think it was the user 207.63.191.20. Can some1 ban him if its true pls. Gavin 00:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)