Talk:Arnolfini Portrait

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Contents 1 Size 2 Arnolfini Wedding 3 Identity of the subjects 4 Citing a book 5 "Unique" 6 Symbolism sources 7 Page name 8 mirror 9 Requested move 9.1 Discussion 10 Move 11 Year 1434 ? 12 Interpretation and symbolism 13 Rating on assessment scale 14 Cleanup Needed

[edit] Size

The information in this article lists the size as 82.2 x 60 centimeters. However, my copy of Janson's History of Art lists the size as 83.7 x 57 centimeters. Can anyone verify either of these two sizes or even have completely different measurements. If nobody responds, I will go to the National Gallery for information. --Sophitus 11:30, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I have checked the National Gallery's website and it confirms the size as 82.2 x 60 centimeters. And because they actually own the painting, obviously my Janson is wrong. --Sophitus 20:44, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

actually it is probably giving board size, not the image size - I have now added both (slightly different figures) per the NG to the template Johnbod 00:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arnolfini Wedding

A substub by troll User:Haydes. It seems to be about a painting, and I'm listing it here because I'm unsure whether this deserves an article of its own. Maybe merge and redirect to Jan van Eyck? jni 13:41, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Keep, it was a requested article, and it's a famous painting, so it really should be on cleanup or something, not here. Adam Bishop 16:46, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Clean up and expand - It was a requested article after all... ClockworkTroll 17:29, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep and list on cleanup, but make sure that Giovanni Arnolfini and Giovanna Cenami are redirects, and not the substubs that Haydes wants to keep them as. RickK 19:50, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep valid topic. [[User:Davodd|DAVODD «TALK»]] 23:59, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Joyous 01:23, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, clean up and expand this stub by the Renaissance Painting Bandit. Antandrus 01:30, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • There, I tried to make it a bit more respectable. 01:48, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • That is much better than the original that looked like a typical troll pile to me. After some reading, I concur this is a valid topic and therefore change my initial vote to keep. If there is a process for de-listing items from VFD before lag time runs out, I support doing that and listing this article on cleanup instead. I like RickK's suggestion and hope others will help keep any further Haydes' substubs at bay. jni 08:10, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Now Anthony DiPierro has taken it upon himself to revert the redirection and make the substubs on the husband and wife in the painting into non-notable stubs and doesn't even bother to put a stub notice on the pages. If the two articles about the people are not kept as redirects, I intend to list THEM on VfD. RickK 22:53, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
        • I only did it with the article on Arnolfini, which is more interesting than the article on the portrait. Go ahead and list it on VfD. No one will support you, because the Arnolfini page is perfectly fine. anthony (see warning) 02:11, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
          • Now that you've made it more than a two sentence substub, I guess it's worth keeping, though he isn't really notable. RickK 21:55, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
            • It's worth keeping, but he's not notable? That's contradictory. anthony (see warning) 22:01, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. I added the pic (already existed at Jan van Eyck and somehow not added already). Remarkable how the existence of a pic makes me immediately think an article is not ripe for deletion. Tempshill 20:35, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. I recall reading something about how this painting served as a sort of painted marriage certificate, which is interesting—I'll see if I can dig up that article. —No-One Jones ^(m) 22:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • That would be a very useful addition. RickK 22:49, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
    • The description of that is in the reference I've added to the Arnolfini biography. "Panofsky didn't just see this painting as a portrait of a married couple. He saw it as a marriage certificate." anthony (see warning) 21:58, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a no brainer. Incredibly notable. Gamaliel 08:46, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, of course. — Bill 17:49, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

What in the world does "most unique" mean?

I believe it refers to the fact that this painting is unusual, practically alone in western art history, with regard to its themes, symbols, design, and complexity. --Sophitus 05:09, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

"Most unique" makes no sense; something is unique or it is not. Such nonsensical overstatement leads a reader to wonder if the writer knows what he is talking about.

[edit] Identity of the subjects

I was initially reverting the edits by User:220.238.157.118, changing the name of the subject from Giovani Arnolfini to Michele Arnolfini, as unexplained possible vandalism, but now that I have read around a little I see that there is plenty of uncertainty over the identity of the subjects of the painting.

Conventionally the sitters are identified as Giovanni di Arrigo Arnolfini and his bride Giovanna Cenami. This is largely based on the 1934 analysis by Erwin Panofsky which is often taken as the definitive interpretation. Panofsky in turn, was basing his analysis on a couple of 16th century documents that mention the picture, that may have been mistaken. There is evidence that this can't be Giovani Arnolfini, for example a document indicating that Giovanni was married 14 years after this painting. Others have argued that the apparent age of Giovanni shown in the portrait doesn't match the age he would have been at the time. Still others suggest Jan van Eyck actually painted the picture sometime long after the 1434 date painted on the wall.

Certainly one of the other candidates for the sitters would be Michele Arnolfini and his wife Elizabeth, but I don't think this is universally accepted. The linked Austrian reference [1] given by User:220.238.157.118 appears to state that the couple is Michele & Elizabeth without much qualification. My German isn't stong enough to read that article well, but it appears to start with a discussion about the common standards of marriage in the middle ages, rather than being an analysis of this particular painting, and I can't see that web site has any special credibility.

I suggest we leave the names of the sitters as the conventional Giovanni & Giovanna, but include a paragraph explaining how they are probably misidentified and giving some of the alternatives. -- Solipsist 06:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

- You need to see the National Gallery catalogue: The Fifteenth Century Netherlandish Paintings by Lorne Cambell, 1998. Ms Cenami is out (she married G di A in 1447); it is G di A's cousin Giovanni di Nicolao plus an undocumented second wife who are shown. I think this version has to be given priority, as it is their painting. Johnbod 15:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing a book

I'm new here. How do I cite the book "The Arnolfini Betrothal: Medieval Marriage and the Enigma of Van Eyck's Double Portrait"? The part about art historian Edwin Hall is from this book. Cmyk 07:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That's a question I've been meaning to look in to for a while. In the old days (about 6 months ago) we would have just put a reference to the book at the end of the article. But now I am increasingly seeing the {{ref}} and {{note}} templates being used to mark a particular comment. You can find instructions for using them at Template talk:Ref.

Basically it looks like you make up a footnote reference, like 'Hall01', then add {{ref|Hall01}} at the right point in the body text. Then add a Notes section with a list of reverse links back to the ref marker along with the specific page reference, {{note|Hall01}} Edwin Hall, p. 55.

When listing a book reference, its a good idea to inlcude the ISBN number which will automagically be turned in to a link to a page of sources for the book - e.g. ISBN 0520212215

There are some good examples of using them, as well as the formatting for book references in the Dmitri Shostakovich article and several others in the list of Featured Articles. -- Solipsist 07:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Unique"

"Unique" does not take a modifier. It means "one of a kind," so something is either unique or it isn't: it can't be "very" unique. I changed the word in the article to "original," which seemed closest to what the author of the post meant.

Ursatz 11:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbolism sources

It looks like many of the claims made in the "Symbolism" section of this article are from Panofsky's essay. I don't know if that was the intention, but you could probably cite that as a source for a lot of them, especially the more controversial ones. Billy Shears 22:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page name

I've decapitalized the name. In fact I think the article should be at Portrait of Giovanni Arnolfini and his Wife, which is now a redirect. Objections? Piet 09:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably not the best idea. As far as I know there is no known original title for this painting. 'Portrait of Giovanni(?) Arnolfini and his Wife' is the title the National Gallery (London) gives it, so might be considered official, but there is quite a range of alternative titles (we ought to include 'The Arnolfini Wedding' in the description). However the most popular common name appears to be just 'The Arnolfini Portrait' (with a capital P). Wikipedia's naming conventions are to use the most common name in English. Indeed this is already how the article is most commonly linked internally, so we should move the page back to where it was. -- Solipsist 16:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do you assume The Arnolfini Portrait is the most common name? I don't like it, it seems very informal and it does not feel like a proper name. But if there's reason to believe it's the most common name you can move it back. Piet 18:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

A combination of Google stats and the fact that most of the in-article internal links are for The Arnolfini Portrait (there is one for The Arnolfini Wedding and one for Portrait of Giovanni Arnolfini and his Wife). Wikipedia's naming policies are about trying to ensure that editors will guess the correct link without having to disambiguate. Few people are going to correctly link Portrait of Giovanni Arnolfini and his Wife. -- Solipsist 20:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the internal links pointed to where the page was of course, to avoid redirects. That's no argument. And google stats are no good either, since "the arnolini portrait" can be used in a sentence where it might not be meant as the name. I'm willing to follow you based on your last point. But I still don't think "The Arnolifini Portrait" is the actual name of the painting. If it's not the name, we should follow the standard article naming guidelines and drop "The" and decapitalize "Portrait", so Arnolifini portrait. I'm sure Mona Lisa is not at The Mona Lisa allthough people might call it that.

...

• Well, I checked Leonardo_da_Vinci#Selected_works for reference, some of the works have "The" in the name where it could easily be left out (The Baptism of Christ (Verrocchio)), others don't have "The" where it might have been used (Virgin of the Rocks, Adoration of the Magi (Leonardo)) so there appears to be no standard. To me, using "The" seems wrong unless it would be clear that the title contains "the" like in The Man Who Knew Too Much (1934 film). We'll have to take a closer look at the guidelines, can't do that right now.
• As for the capitalization of "painting", that seems the same story. If it's the name of painting it can be capitalized, otherwise it's lowercase since it is not a proper noun.

But anyway, I'm not going to push this.

-- Piet 07:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No its not just because that's where the page was (although you are supposed to dab and update links when you move a page - hint :) ). When I check a 'What links here' I also check to see what text is associated with each link. If most of them have already been dab'ed that tells you that many editors are trying to use a different title. In this case, the text was typically a straight link on 'The Arnolifini Portrait'.

However, I would agree with you in that I'm not so comfortable with including the preposition as part of the title. As you say it can go either way. An easier check is just to look at Category:Renaissance_paintings. Again in this case it seems to be quite common to include the preposition in the title, but it is the sort of thing we could do with a wider policy on (there would be a better place to decide that than here - maybe it has already been discussed).

It is also commonly the case that Renaissance paintings (and many others) don't really have an official title. Unless a title was written on the painting (unusual), or unless a painting has a particularly well documented provenance which records a title in a contemporary document, the accepted title for a painting tends to be much more recent and may relate to the obvious subject, a famous owner or the name used by a gallery (even then there are often variations due to translation issues). The titles are mostly just 'handles' that art historians use to be sure they are all talking about the same painting. In this case I think the common title comes from Panofsky's 1934 article. It is quite likely that nobody had paid much attention to this painting before then.

However, I'm no expert on these things, so would happily be corrected. -- Solipsist 08:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether we're supposed to update all links when moving a page stands to discussion. Updating a page creates more work for the servers than having the server process the redirects. Eliminating double redirects is more important.

After all that's been said, I still think the page should be at Arnolfini portrait or even Arnolfini (portrait) or Arnolfini (painting) but I'll leave the decision to you. But don't leave it where it is, I shouldn't have decapitalized without removing "The". If we use "The", it's a name and Painting should be capitalized. Piet 08:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Solipsist; any search for an "actual name" is going to be futile. The title of this article is necessarily going to be an art-historical construct. That said, I don't think Arnolfini portrait (decapitalised p) is ideal. It suggests that "Arnolfini" is a particular type of portrait, just as Fresco painting is a particular technique of painting or Relief sculpture is a particular kind of sculpture. And I'm afraid Arnolfini (portrait) or Arnolfini (painting) only make that false suggestion stronger.

There's a convention on Wikipedia for artworks whose popular titles follow the formula "adjective (from the name of the patron/most famous owner/location) – noun" to capitalise both words: Borghese Gladiator, Elgin Marbles, Ghent Altarpiece, Harbaville Tryptych, Mond Crucifixion, Portland Vase. I think the same convention is applicable to Arnolfini Portrait. [talk to the] HAM 20:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ham - though I think the most common name in the UK is "The Arnolfini Wedding", as started by Panofsky. The NG used to call it "The Arnolfini Marriage" (Potterton 1971) or Levey (ex-Director, "The NG Collection", 1987):"The Marriage of Giovanni Arnolfini" & their current Languir guide 1997 subtitles it " The Arnolfini Portrait". The Article should be as it is, but "Arnolfini Portrait" for the reasons given above.

Johnbod 20:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] mirror

the paragraph:

"...allowed the forms to be projected onto the surface of the painting, leaving the painter to simply match and fill in the colors. That technique migrated gradually to Italy and most of Europe and may be the reason for the photographic style of painting we see in the northern Renaissance and other periods of art. Eventually this phenomenon led to the invention of photography."

seems to contradict the staments made on the entry about perspective(graphic). There it is stated that the italians started this "mirror technique". That article even mentions perpective mistakes made on Arnolfini portrait.

[edit] Move

Hmm, I've missed the discussion because the page was not on my watchlist anymore since the last move. I'm not going to reopen the debate, but I have to say I'm very surprised nobody mentioned the official guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words in titles, which was the main rationale for putting the page where it was. Piet | Talk 18:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you contributed to the debate on August 22 Johnbod 19:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that guideline, which oddly seems to be breached more than it is observed, at least where pages on artworks are concerned. Besides the examples I listed in my rationale above, we also have Doni Tondo, Medici Vase, Portinari Triptych etc. etc. If the norm is for art articles to flout this policy, should we perhaps be reconsidering it? [talk to the] HAM 11:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not breached more than it is observed, the examples are all works of art. In general, pages will follow the guideline. So it should not be reconsidered, but maybe an exception could be formulated that covers the cases named here. Piet | Talk 12:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Year 1434 ?

How the painter knew about this A.D. chronology, which was created more that hundred years later? Michael Levin —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.20.208.129 (talk) 03:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC).

Easy - no it wasn't! See Anno domini Johnbod 08:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation and symbolism

Items in this section are listed as if they are all fact. Surely some of these are fairly well-established interpretations of art of the period, others unsupported speculation? Some documented comment on the reliability of the different interpretations is required, by someone more knowledgeable than me. Pol098 21:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think, as mentioned above somewhere, all or most come from Panofsky. I think all would have some support from some art historians, though views on the extent to which they were intended by the artist as symbols etc would vary. Johnbod 15:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rating on assessment scale

This article is unrated on the assessment scale. It seems to me that this is a pretty good article - at least a 'B' rating? What do others think? -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No argument from me, but i'm biased. Someone does need to reference the symbolism bits to Panofsky (mostly, it seems). Johnbod 03:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Needed

This article can stand to be cleaned up more. The second image on the page has no caption, so I have no idea what is being looked at (or for) in the close up of the wife's sleeve. Also, there needs to be a consistent footnote style used because it gives it a bad appearence and doesn't inform the reader that some of the footnotes are links to other articles (which should be footnoted anyway, if not done son directly). ^{(talk to)}SailorAlphaCentauri 15:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, though on the first point you could always try reading the text next to the image (anathema to many a WP editor I know) Johnbod 16:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)