Talk:Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia

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Contents

[edit] Armenian Diaspora


  • This is a very sensitive topic. That a genocide was conducted against the Armenian people by the Ottoman Army between 1915-1917 is not generally disputed in academic circles outside Turkey. It can be argued that such atrocities are common the formation of all states. However, the relatively recent period of state formation has made critical discussions particulary contentious in Turkey. It is a shibboleth of Turkish civil society to deny that atrocities against national minorities accompanied formation of the modern Turkish state. The dispute was bound to turn up in an article like this.

I have removed the following partisan quote from the main page for violating the POV rule. I'm leaving it on the talk page as an example of unsubstatiated argument and propaganda primer.

"- Significant event: * On 27 January 1973, the Armenians in the United States as well as around the world launched a brutal terrorism campaign against the Turks and the Turkish institutions to validate forcibly a mythical genocide believed only by themselves through blood-shed and violence. That day, an old Armenian man by the name Yanikian invited two Turkish diplomats from the Los Angeles Consulate to a luncheon in Santa Barbara. It turned out that the invitation was a dastardly ambush; he killed both diplomats brutally in the restaurant. For two decades this senseless terrorism claimed the lives of more than seventy Turkish diplomats (four in the U.S.) and their family members, and maimed and wounded several innocent by-standers in the carnage staged by the Armenians all over the world. The Armenian terrorists, mostly dropouts from Middle Eastern terrorism, recognize no boundary to their savage operations. They even carried the terror to the college campuses, ravishing the sanctified atmosphere of the higher-learning institutions. The American historians who refused to share the distorted Armenian version of history were targeted for harassment and threat. The Turkish History professor Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was one of them, and on October 3, 1977, the Armenian bullies threw a bomb, and blew up the front portion of his house. He and his family had to leave the campus under a death threat."

The first sentence breaks sense and grammar rules to fit in a denial of the Armenian genocide. The incidents related are a mixture of vagueness and puzzling specificity: "old man named Yanikian" at an unamed restaurant with unnamed diplomats in an incident which may have occured on 27 January 1973. The overuse of adjectives makes for melodramatic writing, undermining the believability of the narrative. Most of the incidents mentioned in the quote are supposed to have occurred in the U.S., so references would be available in English. If any incident can be substantiated with a neutral refence, then it could go back in the main article without adjectives and without flatly denying the Armenian genocide. DJ Silverfish 15:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Is below enough info for you?

Article from The Independent dated Apr 2, 1998 p:14
Editor's e-mail: editorial at independent dot com

Murder Will Out?

District Attorney Regrets Not Allowing Genocide Testimony at Murder
Trial

By David D. Minner, judge of the Madera County Municipal Court, who
was the District Attorney of Santa Barbara County in the early 1970s.

Twenty-five years ago Gourgen Mkrtich Yanikian, a 78 year old Armenian
immigrant and long time Santa Barbara resident, started what he called
a "New kind of war" with assassination of two Turkish diplomats.

Yanikian's war began January 27, 1973, in a cottage at the Biltmore
Hotel, where he had lured a consul general and vice-consul of the
Republic of Turkey. The diplomats expected to receive gifts of art
treasures for their government, but instead Yanikian pulled a Luger
pistol from a hollowed-out book and emptied it at them. He called the
reception desk, said he killed "two evils", then sat calmly on the
patio awaiting arrest.
(continues)...

It seems he's a hero for your fellow armenians. See this link

If it's not related to ASALA directly, maybe we should create a new article "Armenian Terrorism"?

--Gokhan 12:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Information can be cleaned from POV. I think he is trying to refer to the first incident regading the ASALA activities. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Salon.com:Turko-Armenian war brews in the Ivory TowerAfter a century of debate about the Armenian massacres, can the Turkish government endow chairs at American universities without branding Turkish studies as wholly corrupt? By Christopher Shea.

This article has been seriously criticized. First of, Shaw claim he stopped writing books because he was threatned, this is not so, Shaws stopped writing books when he was exposed having plagiated what he claimed being his 20 years research, from a Turkish "specialist" Uzun Jarsoglu(Shaw still openly deny the Armenian genocide, and comment, if what he claims was to be true, he would just not speak). Shaw and his Turkish wife Ezel Kural were the inniciators of the 70s Turkish government attempt to rewrite history. The article as well uses a work known as revisionist and consider it "balanced" from someone stationed at Istanbul trying to bring Armenians and Turks together by sharing responsabilities when the work itself isen't even seriously considered in the academic circle. Fadix 00:42, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link to an article on the controversies in Turkish studies in American universities. It contains a reference to Dr. Shaw, the only complete name found in the propaganda piece above. DJ Silverfish 08:20, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)


[edit] No Evidence for Attacks in U.S.

TERRORIST GROUP PROFILES Naval Postgraduate School U.S. Navy site seems to be the basis for the main article. This article does not mention any attacks in the U.S., just a few attacks in Europe during the 1980s.

Federation of American Scientists Intelligence Resource program simply duplicates the US Navy info. Mentions that the organization is inactive.

If there had been attacks in the U.S., the U.S. government history of the ASALA would certainly have mentioned it. DJ Silverfish 08:42, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Prof. Ezel Kural Shaw was my instructor two years ago, and when I asked her about the Armenian claims, she told me the disgusting event, in which a gang of Armenian extremists tried to kill the Shaw family at UCLA. Luckily they did not die; she and her husband Prof. Stanford Shaw are still professors of history at Bilkent University, Ankara-Turkey.

[edit] Suggestions for "See Also"

  • Diaspora - An internal link would contextualize Armenian nationalism within circumstances of political and social dispersal.

DJ Silverfish 20:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Terrorism - killing innocent diplomats in order to reach political claims

[edit] ASALA And Hamshen

Does anyone have any idea about the ASALA man who was accidently discovered for being a "Hamshen" ?--Maral79 18:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Removed Armenian "Reality--Kagan the Barbarian 08:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)" Links

The links read "Armenian Reality" and "Another Armenian Reality" and linked to POV websites. You can put them back up when there are Armenian POV links up there as well. Hakob 04:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


I removed them again, the website is grossly POV.--Moosh88 08:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

We can put them as long as we state they are Turkish POV. It is a bloody link, you can't censor it. See links given on Armenian Genocide.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

And feel free to add Armenian POV links and state they are Armenian perspective. Regards.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


POV is not welcome on any Wikipedia article, therefore we will not be adding any Armenian POV to this article. Sites that support the Armenian Genocide are not POV, since it is historical fact, the sites you posted for this article are outlandish at best. They don't need to be included.--Moosh88 09:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

There are Turkish POV links on the Armenian Genocide page. Wikipedia doesn't allow adult content as well but this doesn't prevent users from giving links to adult websites. As I said you can give link to any page as long as it is relevant to current article and contains a warning if necessary (such as Adult Content, or POV etc). Instead of deleting those links, add some Armenian POV links.--Kagan the Barbarian 10:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


Can you explain to me why this page needs either an Armenian or Turkish POV link? What use does it serve?--Moosh88 20:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Because their main targets were Turkish diplomats. Both sites contain information about these murders although from Turkish perspective.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


But why do you need to link to a site which is so blatently anti-Armenian?--Moosh88 07:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Tall Armenian Tale is removed by Eupator, if it was debated before and that is the conclusion then I respect that. The other stays. Cheers.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question.--Moosh88 09:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

How is it anti-Armenian? I haven't seen both sites.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


Are you serious? It's denying the Genocide, and claiming that Armenia commited terrible atrocities against Turks and Azeris. I'm sorry but this link has to be erased,for it's very biased and offending to the memory of those who died in the Genocide and their descendants.

Didn't they?Search for "Hocali village" on the net.I'm tired placating you double-standard lovers.And I did myself correct your pitiful moronic grammar.And by denying the Hocali Massacre,you are offensive to me.--Turkish Legacy 22:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I will let you edit the link, please do so as soon as you can.--Moosh88 19:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No evidence that Hagopian was killed by a Turkish agent

Hagopian was killed in Athens by two unidentified men wearing ski masks who peppered him with four shotgun rounds and soon made their getaway by van. The Turks would never have been able to track him down whereas other suspects such as the Dashnaks and even more likely, rival members in ASALA who had been tracking him for months on end, were the ones who killed him. MarshallBagramyan 13:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the French secret services are said to have killed Hagopian, according to German historian Tessa Hofmann. -- Clevelander 15:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorist vs Guerilla

Some anonymous person changed the description from "terrorist" to "guerilla". I reverted back. Asala, which killed diplomats and innocent civilians, should be labeled as "terrorist". Otherwise this article would be approving the acts. --Gokhan 17:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, let me explain to you about a few Wikipedia policies/rules regarding how "terrorism" is treated. At Wikipedia, we try to avoid controversial accusations whenever we can. For example, it would not be NPOV for us to label Hamas, PKK, IRA, Hezbollah, and Al-Qaeda as terrorist organizations. It is ok, however, to say that they are recognized as terrorist by a number of countries, but it's not ok to name-call.
Believe me Gokhan, I see definitely see Al-Qaeda as terrorist, but it's just not acceptable to add my opinion to an article. Hope you understand. —Khoikhoi 02:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
he is right. As far as I care ASALA is a terrorist organisation, but on wikipedia we cant declare any organisation as "terrorist". On the other hand you can talk about Turkey recognising it as terrorist or if any other organisations apply. --Cat out 08:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I was hoping you wouldn't see this, as I pretty much copied what you said to Hattusili. But hey, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". —Khoikhoi 08:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
OK --Gokhan 07:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Abdullah Çatlı smashed ASALA.Even if they were guerillas or terrorists.ASALA doesn't exist anymore and this is what I care about. With respect, Deliogul 16:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced tag

Before even thinking of labelling as a terrorist group (which is surely was), sources should be provided. Please refer to other controversial articles such as Hamas to see how this is done. Tazmaniacs 16:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Armenian Terrorism - A Chronological List, 1973 - 1986

During a 16-year period from 1973 to 1986, various Armenian terrorist organisations claimed responsibility for about 200 attacks on Turkish diplomatic and non-diplomatic institutions and murdered 55 Turkish and 16 non-Turkish people and wounded hundreds of others. Armenians also targeted their own people who refused to make financial contribution to Armenian terrorism. Below is a chronological list of Armenian terrorist activities from 1973 to 1986.

http://www.atmg.org/ArmenianTerrorism.html

[edit] Terrorism, not related to ASALA

Armenian terrorism redirects here. But what about terror acts, committed by ethnic Armenian people, who were not members of ASALA? For example, explosion in Moscow metro in 1977? Grandmaster 12:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Please be bold in such cases. I removed both articles redirect here & listed them for deletion, maybe you would care commenting on it (see Armenian terrorism and Armenian Terrorism). Tazmaniacs 17:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I think they should not be deleted, but rather made into a separate article or a list of such organizations. Ethnic and religious terrorism is not something uncommon, and in this particular case there were more than one organization involved, they all shared similar ideology and pursued similar goals. I think it should be described in a broader context in a separate article. The name could be altered, if needed. Grandmaster 18:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
You would like that, wouldn't you. :-) Hakob 18:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


As an Azari I disagree and do not consider Armenian freedom fighters as terrorists. There are some borderline cases, user:Grandmaster don't be too hasty in labeling others as terorrists. I would also like to take the time to tell our friends at Wikiproject Armenia that many Azaris and certain members of Wikiproject Azari/Azeri see you as our brothers with the same Albanian and Iranian ancestors. We are not Turkic people, we only speak a Turkic language and are really Iranians who have shared a commo history for thousands of years before any Turks or Mongols came to our region. Many of us also want to say it was not us that massacred inoccent Armenians in the Armenian Holocaust as the Turks did. I propose that we make a joint userbox saying peace in Caucasia and share it with our projects and the Georgian, Russian, and Iranian. I apologize to all of you for the facist aggression of a fiction pan-Turkist movement that has victimized Aremnians and the Iranian peoples (which includes the Azaris). 72.57.230.179
Well if you love them that much why just give them Nagorno-Karabakh? Or maybe you will want to give Baku as present as well? While at it you can tell 1 million Azeri refugees to be happy because Armenians are their cousins actually. That was fun. --Gokhan 03:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
General rule here: please do not feed the troll. Grandmaster 09:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info on Armenian Support to ASALA

There are no details in the article to what extend (if any) was the popularity among or support by Armenia & Armenian Diaspora. Maybe general feelings or Armenian news articles of the period. How can we incorporate this aspect within the article? --Gokhan 11:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems this is another issue that is being covered up... --Gokhan 03:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Armenian Resistance Organization

New Armenian Resistance Organization is a terrorist cell based out of France. In 1972 they bombed the Turkish Tourism and Information Office in Paris.[1] While their first terror acts were before the creation of ASALA they and other groups like the Azad Hay in Canada, Gaitzer would eventually ally with and become part of ASALA. The group is now viewed as one of many militant wings of ASALA.

This group is part of the ASALA why isn't it allowed to be part of the ASALA article?--Esemono 15:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "new version."

Clevelander, did you see the "Turkish homeland of Eastern Anatolia" in the "new version?" And that sounded neutral to you? The "new version" removed any mention of Armenian Genocide, which was the prime motivator of the group's activities.--TigranTheGreat 01:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Er, what? No, this was my "new version" (I added references, etc. something that nobody seemed willing to do). Before I made this major revision, a good chunk of the page looked like it had been copied-and-pasted from various Turkish websites with an obscure reference to My Brother's Road thrown in it. In short, it was a mess.
Admittedly, however, I didn't pay much attention to this article after I revised it, so somebody must've added something new to it since then. When I reverted the article, I didn't bother to look at the content I was reverting (I meant to revert to 62.203.179.170's last version not to Tazmaniacs's). I explained my rather embarassing mistake to Khoikhoi and I apologize for the confusion. -- Clevelander 01:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all lets make one thing clear: ASALA as can be understood from its name is an organization aiming the "Liberation of Armenia" has nothing to do with the so-called genocide issue. The sole aim of ASALA was to create the imaginary big Armenia as depicted on their logo. The Armenian terrorist organization aiming the spread of Armenian genocide lie is JCAG as again can be understood from its name. About the Turkish homeland of Anatolia being a POV: Anatolia is the Turkish homeland since 1071 A.D., you don't know it learn it, can't get used to it (still!!!) get along with it. If you think the phrase can somehow to be considered a POV, please replace it with a NPOV version rather than deleting, because I see no POV in that. And most importantly, please stop deleting the list of assasinated Turkish diplomats and killed civilians by Armenians for it's withelding information. All the edits on the page are referenced, if you state otherwise please specify which one you're talking about again rather than deleting people's contributions. KertenkelebekⓉ 07:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is actually interesting to note that the map on their logo appears to include the whole territory of Azerbaijan republic. What does it have to do with "genocide"? Grandmaster 07:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
As a matter of fact only the half of it (if it makes any difference) and a small portion of Georgia when you lay the logo on Google Earth and after making adjustments to fit it to geographical borders. KertenkelebekⓉ 08:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It looks like the whole territory of Azerbaijan including Baku to me. Grandmaster 08:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the only Azerbaijani territories that the ASALA appears to be claiming are Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh. Also note that that low "cleft" that appears to be cutting into the ASALA's proposed "Greater Armenia" is actually Iran. So when you set it against any map of the South Caucasus, keep this note in mind and you'll see that this is the case. -- Clevelander 22:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
What we sadly witness on Wikipedia is the distilled version of the ongoing massive disinformation handled by certain groups for decades.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I would expect support rather than being a witness from the people with common sense on the other hand. KertenkelebekⓉ 08:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Merhaba Kelebek. You are violating copyright by pasting from a website. I agree with you that the crimes of ASALA and their victims should be mentioned here but you'll have to do better than copy pasting, try writing your own paragraphs.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not from a website, it's from the book, however you have a point. I'll revise the Chronology and put ti the other way, however one can't change or hide the information based on this cover (no offense to you). KertenkelebekⓉ 08:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you posted nothing but the regular Turkish falsifications. Saying "ASALA was not about the Genocide" is a new one, but belongs with the rest of them. Sorry, but the genocide was a central motivator of the ASALA activities, mentioned even in neutral websites such as tkb.org. The demand for Western Armenia is in fact intricately connected with the Genocide--since Turks used the Genocide to stop the lawful process of Western Armenia's independence, they shall return it back to Armenians (and that's what ASALA said as well).

By the way, aside from the fact that the homeland of Turks is Central Asia, just strictly speaking about the Ottoman Empire--the homeland of any empire is the area where the empire starts. So, the Western Anatolia and the Balkans are better qualified as the Ottoman homeland than Armenia. Armenia was added later, and was always the periphery of the empire, rather than the "center"--TigranTheGreat 08:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit: I see some can't let go of their old communist habits. You dare delete my messages in a talk page. 1- How is it not relevant when it is only a reply to your own bloody message. 2- Who are you to decide what's relevant? 3- Who are you decide what's relevant, decide the verdict and execute it? Shameless as always, as would be expected.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but talk page is not your own forum. You may discuss the causes of the Armenian Genocide on its page, here you can't start an irrelevant quarrel.--TigranTheGreat 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a reply to your message, it does not start a new discussion. You are violating my right for an answer.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You have no right for an answer. You have a right to stick to the discussion, which you didn't exercise.--TigranTheGreat 23:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, the copyright problem should be settled now, some additional information on the roots of ASALA is added. If you think something is wrong with the article please feel free to fix it or bring it into discussion rather than deleting. Thanks. KertenkelebekⓉ 10:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The ASALA's goal was to inflict revenge on Turkish diplomats due to Turkey's non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide. This is stated in both the LoC's 1988 edition of "Turkey: A Country Study" as well as on the pro-Armenian website in the links section of this article.
I reverted the latest batch of edits that you added as they are not credible. Furthermore, the Santa Barbara attack by Gourgen Yanikian has nothing to do with the ASALA, it was a seperate attack. The ASALA didn't even operate in the United States as all, if not most of their attacks were carried out in Europe and the Middle East. Also, everything that you have added is uncited, uncredible, and not authoritative. Also, the statement of "the Turkish majority populated eastern Anatolia" is false. Even today, Turks did not constitute a solid majority in eastern Anatolia. Instead it is home to a majority Kurdish population (unless you wish to call them "Mountain Turks"). This, my friend, is a fact. -- Clevelander 12:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there has been an error leading to deletion of my comment from the talk page, I'll just ignore it. Anyway, it was never mentioned that Yanikian was involved in ASALA, but the political situation leading to birth of ASALA can not be understood without examining and understanding its past. Sorry I forgot to cite my resources, I will. As for the Turkish majority populated eastern Anatolia" I was making comparison with the Armenian population more spesifically in the North-eastern Anatolia. But your comment "Turks did not constitute a solid majority in eastern Anatolia" is like saying "Americans do not constitute a solid majority in he US". A Turk is any Turkish citizen or resident in Turkey that considers him/her self to be a Turk regardless of his/her ethnic origin. However this kind of a description may be hard to understand for the racist ideology that divides everyone according to their ethnic or religious origins. I'm not the one to make that kind of a distinction. And this, my friend, is what you don't understand. KertenkelebekⓉ 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. In the United States, everybody is mixed. There are people living in our country from all walks of life and from practically every single country in the world. American society is anything but homogeneous. In Turkey, the situation is different as the majority of the population today are ethnic [Anatolian] Turks. This is true for the most part, until ones goes to eastern provinces like Van, Diyarbakır, Muş, Hakkari, Siirt, Ağrı, Batman, Şırnak, and Şanlıurfa where Kurds form the majority. There are also areas where groups such as Zazas, Georgians, Laz, and Hamshenis (who are Armenians themselves) constitute a majority. -- Clevelander 13:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments weren't deleted, at least not by me. I suppose Kagan the Genghiz in his constant fit of anger did it. His' were deleted since they had nothing to do with the topic of the page. As to your comments, Turkey is not America, Turks are an ethnicity, and stating that has nothing to do with racism--in fact suppressing other ethnicities (as the Turkish Constitution does) is. So, it would be misleading to the reader. And saying "majority Turkish population" is really irrelevant for the article. And we are not going to edit the name of the Armenian Genocide by "highly disputed" or whatever. It is the accepted name for the events in academia, and it should be used. As for the political situation that lead to ASALA--if we were to discuss it, we would have to go to the Armenian Genocide, not Yanikyan.--TigranTheGreat 13:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't add adjectives in front of my actions, such as "in his constant fit of anger", this is not a Stephen King novel. At least have the decency to leave people's messages alone, if there's a problem report it (as you always do). Apologies to Clevlander, deletion of your message was my mistake.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orly Airport

What about the bombing of the Orly Airport, the assault that give the group one of its names? Here is a reference: [2] Kültigin (talk) 13:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like that should be added if accurate. --Awiseman 20:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputes

To some armenians, this page seems to be disputed, please write your concerns here so we may discuss what's wrong with it like civilized people. KertenkelebekⓉ 17:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Good luck with that.--Kagan the Barbarian 17:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You revert the entire article which is well sourced and neutral, and then you ask others to discuss your version instead of reverting it? Sorry, if you have problems with the old version, discuss it here. And the chronology can't be here--it's original research, among other bad things.--TigranTheGreat 23:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Offensive comment from article should be removed

As an Armenian, I was offended by this statement:

The support and sympathy to both grpoups among the Armenian community is still widespread.

I deeply resent this comment as it makes it look like all Armenians support the ASALA or any other Armenian terrorist organization, which is not true. If you want to contribute, then I suggest that you (whoever added this line) please be respectful of all people on Wikipedia, whether they be Turkish or Armenian, Muslim or Christian. We are all human and you should know that not all Armenians support violence as a way of achieving their goals.

It also should be noted that no support can exist for these groups (ASALA, JCAG, or any other Armenian terrorist organization) if they themselves no longer exist. -- Clevelander 18:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why was this deleted?

Kertenkelebek reverted it saying "rv vandal" in his edit summary, but it doesn't seem like vandalism to me? It appears to be sourced and has useful information. It could be cleaned up a little, especially the last paragraph, but seems like it all should be included. --Awiseman 20:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's the removed text:

The ASALA's most destructive attack was on August 7, 1982 in Ankara at the Esenboga International Airport, when its members targeted civilians for the first time. Two militants opened fire in a crowded passenger waiting room. One of shooters took more than 20 hostages while the second was apprehended by police. Altogether, nine people died and 82 were injured. The surviving militant Levon Ekmekjian condemned the ASALA in the aftermath of the attack and appealed to other members to leave and stop the violence. The Esenboga attack also precipitated a split in the group over tactics, between the Nationalists (ASALA-Militant) and the 'Popular Movement' (ASALA-Mouvement Révolutionnaire). Still, on July 15, 1983, the ASALA carried out another devestating attack at the Orly Airport near Paris. The attack gave the group a new nickname, the Orly Group. Afterwards, French forces promptly arrested those involved. [1]

By 1986, the ASALA virtually ceased all attacks. Hagop Hagopian, one of the group's founders, was assassinated on a sidewalk in an affluent neighborhood in Athens, Greece on April 28, 1988. It is disputed whether Hagopian was assinated by the French secret services or Hovsep A., Vartan G., Garabed K., and Albert "Sultan-Minas", former ASALA members and close friends of Hagopian. His body was riddled by several shotgun rounds while he walking out with two women at 4:30 in the morning. [2] Tarakchian died of cancer in 1980 and the group fell into inactivity. According to Turkish sources, the ASALA was repressed by a series of attacks by the Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MIT), some carried out by Abdullah Çatlı, leader of the ultra-nationalist Grey Wolves, which worked in cooperation with the MIT and with Gladio "stay-behind" NATO secret paramilitary organizations [3]. Throughout its history, the ASALA claimed the lives of 31 Turkish diplomats and embassy staff, including wives and children.

Although they publicly distanced themselves from the ASALA [4], Turkey's Armenia community also came under attack by Turkish nationalists in reaction to the attacks. This became apparent after the assination of Ahmet Benler, the son of Ambassador Ozdemir Benler on October 12, 1979 by Armenian militants in the Hague. The reaction to the attack led to the bombing of the church of the Armenian Apostolic Patriarchate in Istanbul on October 19 in retaliation.

I wrote up a sourced and neutral version of the article (this was part of it), but for some reason, this wasn't accepted by some of our fellow editors and was reverted. See here for my original version. If you could revert back to this version than this would be much appreciated. -- Clevelander 21:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
There's no dispute of Hagopian's death. The French and Turkish authorities were left completely out of the loop as Hagopian had been constantly switching IDs and travelling from Greece to Yugoslavia. The closest suspects next to ASALA members were the Dashnaks who had been trying to track him for months. Its sounds gramatically wrong when you insert the French SS and then specifically mention the names of who did it. The assassins themselves admitted to the killings and they were not only friends to Hagopian but also his most trusted lieutenants. They carried out a series of other assassinations against former comrades-in-arms including at one time trying to kill Monte Melkonian in Armenia. Unless there's proof of French complicity by a reputable source, remove the weasel language as that account was confirmed by both inside members and his wife, Janet.--MarshallBagramyan 01:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You can change that when the article is unlocked. -- Clevelander 01:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong citation

I have the book and it does not approve what is written here: "Although they publicly distanced themselves from the ASALA [7], Turkey's Armenia community also came under attack by Turkish nationalists in reaction to the attacks. This became apparent after the assassination of Ahmet Benler, the son of Ambassador Ozdemir Benler on October 12, 1979 by Armenian militants in the Hague. The reaction to the attack led to the bombing of the church of the Armenian Apostolic Patriarchate in Istanbul on October 19 in retaliation." You can find this book too in the internet and read it: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Pitman%2C%20Paul%20M. und http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/trtoc.html so I will delete this wrong citation made in the Article. --134.155.99.42 10:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] # of Diplomats killed

31, 32, 41?Paparokan 14:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ASALA flag

Thats the correct one, Jalaleddin I think you may have confused with the white one featuring a gun with the Armenian homeland previously but that is the official logo not the flag. Artaxiad 19:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Also if you look at that map it shows Cilicia in ancient times Armenians had kingdoms there its not the Kurdish one its not that lengthy. From the left is Cilicia, as seen here, Image:Armenianmediterian.gif Artaxiad 20:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Artaxiad was logo removed because its irrelevant? or some other reason? Vartanm 06:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It was never there actually, but its uploaded to Wikimedia, [3] Artaxiad 06:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Artin Penik etc.

This article should cover the following stuff:

  • 1) Artin Penik
  • 2) Which states listed ASALA as a terrorist organization (According to reference, US did, as far as I know, France did too, so also Turkey and Azerbaijan)

If ASALA is removed from their list, when was it removed?

  • 3) Other attacks, currently the article states only three attacks, ASALA attacked mostly embassies and consulates, those attacks (at least the ones claimed by ASALA) should be mentioned

if we can find: It is stated that ASALA had 8 point manifesto, what were those eight points?

I am going to revert back, and remove 'Armenian SSR' part in the opening statement, remove PKK wikilink at the end. Let me also remove 'list of terrorist organisations' link.

ps. The 'neutral' reference link is dead, Armenian one takes too long (the connection times out whenever I try)

pps. I checked the pages on Pitman's book, where ASALA is mentioned (there are two such pages), we have the following sentence (I think the main page refers to this sentence):

Unidentified Turkish government officials frequently have leaked reports to the news media accusing Armenia, Lebanon, and Syria of allowing Armenian terrorists to receive training and support within their borders.

It does not say anything about these reports being not true Please search for ASALA on [4] --deniz 21:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Your current version is nonsense and is strongly bias and POV, whats your reason for removing the part about the Armenian Genocide? thats one of the main reasons this group was active and committing attacks, secondly removing this is really wrong, In particular, the ceded territory would to The territory to be ceded would be th since the paragraphs are enough. Artaxiad 23:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I did not remove any part about Armenian Genocide (if you are talking about 1.5 million, it wasn't me who removed it). I don't see why it's strongly biased and POV, can you please comment on including three things I mentioned above (also the other ones if you want to)? Also, about the 'ceded territory' sentence, I don't understand what the problem is. If you want to, we can add 'in particular' there, if that is the problem. I don't think removing 'in particular' made the article biased.

--deniz 04:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorist Category

Fedayee, I don't see why are you reverting the page. ASALA is a terrorist organization, according to definition of US State Department and even according to Armenians themselves [5] (read the first line, the rest I can translate if it's necessary). I will repost this to Khoikhoi's page as well, and let him respond. Atabek 01:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm just following the rules on terrorism in wikipedia; [6]. Anyway we all know this category will create controversy and I don't think we want to escalate matters while we're still in the Arbitration. No one denies that the US state department once considered ASALA a terrorist organization. It's just not wiki-rules. Check the Al Qaeda page too. - Fedayee 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
If you peruse this mission Atabek you are pushing major POV. Artaxiad 01:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism:

Encyclopedic:

  • X is on the U.S. Department of State's "Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations" list.
  • X, identified by the Y government as responsible for the Z suicide bombings [or "who claimed responsibility for the Z suicide bombings"], is classified as a terrorist group by A, B and C [countries or bodies].
  • Countries A, B and C regard X as a terrorist group [because...]

Not encyclopedic:

  • X is a terrorist group.
  • Y, leader of the X terrorists, ...
  • After a rapid military response, the X terrorists abandoned the hostages.

¿Comprendes señor? Khoikhoi 01:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Muchas gracias amigo! - Fedayee 01:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC
Khoikhoi, my question was regarding category not regarding wording. According to your logic, I don't see why Abdullah Çatlı should belong to terrorist category either. I will fix the problem immediately. However, this issue will be brought to attention of ArbCom as well, as one of the proposals. I don't see why ASALA is different from Al Qaeda with one being listed as terrorist category and others not. Fedayeen, your argument has no relevance to ArbCom Case. State Department considered ASALA as terrorist for the entire duration of its existence, not just for some of its time. Also, if "terrorist" category is not appropriate, I don't see why there is a category called terrorist at all. Artaxiad, yours as usual, simply ignored. Thanks. Atabek 01:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Your not scaring anyone with your ArbCom, your always in a rush, this shall be reported to ArbCom also for pushing POV, violating Wiki rules by adding Terrorism to articles as seen on Monte melkonian and ASALA and other places, and thanks. Artaxiad 01:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead report it. ASALA was considered as terrorist organization by the State Department, its leaders, including Monte Melkonian, were arrested and convicted on charges of terrorism in France and other European Countries for killing civilians in attacks. It's preposterous to exclude it from Terrorist category now, while some Palestinian, Chechen, etc. organization are in that category. I would love to hear why is that from ArbCom. Atabek 02:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
When was its leader convicted as a terrorist??? That whole sentence is just bunch of Azeri propaganda. Monte Melkonian was convicted for forgery and weapons charges. It was only France not the other European countries. Vartanm 02:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
You still don't understand do you? did you miss the examples users gave above? read the rules again, NPOV, terrorism is something to avoid, we all know that, terrorism is a factor that should be included but is not, major terrorist groups on Wikipedia don't have that why? because its against the rules. Artaxiad 02:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I did make my point clear. If there is a category called terrorism in Wikipedia, then ASALA definitely fits in it. If using using "terrorism" is against rules, then the category should not be there in first place. I am still waiting to get an explanation of that from Khoikhoi, who did not answer my question. Thanks. Atabek 09:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"Armenian terrorism" is POV, theres other categories like I said, the person who made it obviously was part of the party, Armenian or Turkish. Artaxiad 19:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
France is member of EU and EC, and as such, the laws, as well as responsibilities, are shared with all members of the European community. If one was convicted of terrorism in France, he is considered terrorist in the entire EC/EU. Meanwhile, there are other ASALA members who were convicted or tried on terrorism charges, such as Varujan Karapetian and Murad Topalian [7]. According to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation, between 1980-86, Armenian terrorism accounted for the second highest number of terrorist incidents in the United States.[FBI Analysis of Terrorist Incidents in the United States in 1986, p.53. U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Criminal Investigative Division, Terrorism Section.] According to the FBI, two Armenian groups were directly responsible for this terrorism: the left-wing “Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia” (ASALA) and the right-wing “Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide” (JCAG). Since 1973, Armenian terrorists have committed 239 acts of terrorism that have killed at least 70 and wounded 524 innocent people, mostly non-Turks. Armenian terrorists have taken 105 hostages, "executing" 12, one of them an American woman. The Armenian terrorist bombing campaign that accounted for at least 160 of the 239 attacks caused the vast majority of the deaths and injuries. In addition, the Armenian terrorist bombing campaign caused 160 incidents of property destruction, totaling several hundred million dollars in property damage in the United States, Europe, Middle East and Australia. Of the 239 terrorist attacks, 71 were conducted by Armenians from North America, and 30 occurred on American soil. Twenty-two terrorists from the Armenian American communities of North America were captured, tried, convicted, and incarcerated. The Federal authorities, led by then-Federal Agent and current ATF Marshall, Pete Elliot, used DNA evidence to link Topalian to weapons and explosives that were in turn linked to four major attacks by the nationalist, JCAG terror organization: (1) October 12, 1980, New York, Car bombing of the Turkish Center, Jewish American B’Nai Brith Center, and African American Center at the U.N Plaza; (2) June 3, 1981, Los Angeles, Bombing of the Orange County Convention Center in Anaheim, site of an Evangelical Convention and Turkish folkdance and music show; (3) November 20, 1981, Los Angeles, Bombing of the Turkish Consulate building in Beverly Hills; and, (4) October 22, 1982, Los Angeles, Attempted bombing of the offices of Philadelphia Honorary Turkish Consul General by four JCAG members recruited from the Armenian Youth Federation (AYF) (a fifth JCAG co-conspirator is arrested at Logan International Airport in Boston the same day). On June 12, 2005, NBC Dateline’s segment, “Time Bomb”, reported that Topalian acquired and stored weapons and explosives in a public storage facility near a childcare center, public school, gas station, and major highway near Cleveland. The explosives, dating back to the late 1970s, were deteriorating and highly volatile. Agent Elliot expressed that had the arsenal ignited and exploded, it would have killed at least 750 people, mostly children. --AdilBaguirov 18:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Adil please provide a source for ASALA membership and conviction for Varujan Karapetian and Murad Topalian. Your whole rant was about JCAG which has nothing to do with ASALA. Vartanm 21:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This

This. No comment.--Doktor Gonzo 10:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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