Talk:Argentine economic crisis (1999-2002)

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Contents 1 Name of the article 2 Discussion about exports 3 Cacerolazo not new? 4 Contribution of Social Currencies 5 Debt restructuring 6 Criticism of the IMF 7 reference links- film. 8 Effect of Wealth Distribution

[edit] Name of the article

This has to be desambiguated, or do you think this is/will be the only economic crisis worth mentioning? Ejrrjs | What? 23:46, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This has been here for a while, but it still holds. I'd like other people to know what to rename the article to. I'd prefer adding a parenthetical date to the name, but which date? 2001? The last week of 2001 was the peak, but not the beginning or the end of the crisis. The 2000s? It began at least in 1999, possibly before. What will it be?

Also, there are now enough articles to deserve a Category:Argentine economic crisis. The name, of course, suffers from the same problem as stated above, so that has to be solved first. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:21, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

The crisis took place between the 1990s and the 2000s. Would it be wrong to call it Argentine Economic Crisis of the 1990s? Argentine Economic Crisis of 1989-2004? Argentine Economic Crisis of the 1990s and 2000s? Argentine Economic Crisis that started in the 1990s during Carlos Menem presidency and who knows when will finish? My 2 cents-Mariano 06:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The simplest answer is always the better one: Argentine Economic Crisis, 1999-2002, because the recession started in 1999 and by 2002 the economy started to growth again. Jfa - <<talk to the hand>> 17:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I like that, though I'd prefer Argentine economic crisis (1999-2002). In any case, I'd leave a redirect from the original name, until someone decides to write about other crises (and/or some other crisis hits in the future). I'll wait some more and see if anybody has a better idea, but I think this is it. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:12, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I would also go with (parenthesis). Mariano(t/c) 06:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't really think it could be referred to as just a single time period crisis. This crisis was the result of about 30 years of de-industrialization under the juntas after Perón, Alfonsin and Menem. However, I think a good name might be 'The Economic Crisis in De la Rua's Government'. A bit long, but it kind of sums it up. --Comrade Neko 17:37, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, doesn't that contradict what you said first? (I see that might be why you started it with "however"). I'd rather avoid naming names. Some thoughts: by the very nature of an encyclopedia, and science, and human nature itself, we need to split things up and label them, which are not clearly split in reality. Let's choose a representative point in time and make the split there. 1999 is a good date because that's when the crisis first appeared in the economists' radars; 2002 is another good date because that was the real peak of the crisis (when everything that had been taken for granted in the previous decade crumbled in a matter of weeks). 1999-2002 seems OK to me. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:33, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm having second thoughts about this. [1] Unless somebody is about to write an article on another crisis, I suggest leaving it like this. If the need arises later, I promise I'll do all the boring job myself. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

There are automated bots that can solve that problem without human intervention. I'm not familiar with them though, but even if the redirection stays, until there's a new crisiss' article it won be a problem, and the new references to the 1999 crisis would be direct and not redirected. In short: The number of references to an article is not (so) important in the decision of moving it. Mariano(t/c) 07:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. I'm going on with the move then. You get one of those bots. :) --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a good consus on the name, but just as another option in case there are still doubts about putting fixed dates to it, I've heard it referred to as the es:Wikipedia: Crisis de convertabilidad a fair amount here in Argentina. Referring to it as the Crisis of Convertability in one form would be another option. Elnocturno 02:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion about exports

(kept for reference, now solved)

Please see the discussion about the effect of convertibility on exports at December 2001 riots (Argentina). Maybe it should be moved here... The issue is:

What role played the low fixed exchange rate in the evolution of exports, imports and the trade balance? By implication, what about de-industrialization?

This page says at present that the 1:1 peso-dollar rate made imports cheap and exports uncompetitive. This has been contested. Reputable sources and analyses are needed in order to explain the matter in a less generalizing and possibly inaccurate way.

--Pablo D. Flores 15:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cacerolazo not new?

Quote from the article: "They created a new form of protest, known as cacerolazo (banging pots and pans)."

I don't think that this was new, although the word used to describe it may have been. This is from having read Alistair Horne's book on the subject of Salvador Allende's period in power in Chile in the early 1970s:

Horn, A. Small Earthquake in Chile, Papermac, 1990. ISBN 0-333-51756-3. p337: "During Castro's visit in the end of 1971, thousands of middle-class women demonstrated angrily in Santiago, beating empty saucepans as a protest against the foot [sic] shortages (plate 40)"

Plate 40 shows exactly that, with the caption "The women of Chile disagree: The 'saucepan riots' of December 1971"

LancsNeil 16:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm going to change that sentence right now. Brian Z 22:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contribution of Social Currencies

No where do I see mentioned the implementation of Argentina's "Green Dollars" and other social currency systems that initally allowed farmers to settle IOUs with their product and have since expanded in availability to all citizens. I came to this site in search of unbiased information about Argentina's political and economic history, specifically how and if social currency systems have helped to alleviate the country's financial burden. I am disappointed not to find even a brief explanation. I have read various articles pertaining to the use of "Argentinos," for instance, but have yet to find any clear explanation sobre their adoption/acceptance/effect nationally. Can anyone help? Thanks!

[edit] Debt restructuring

More details on the exchange of the defaulted bonds and their reduced values would be useful. Did the debt lenders effectively write off the debts, and if so which lenders did this?

[edit] Criticism of the IMF

I am not an economist, so perhaps it is me, but I find it hard to work out from this section what the criticisms of the IMF have been. I understand there have been heavy criticisms levelled against the IMF and I was hoping to read what they were and what the counter-arguments were. All I read here is that an IMF committee allegedly had some un-specified criticisms that they decided to tone down - and they also made vague statement about "informative manipulation" (what? by whom).

I would like to see more hard detail on this. Sam 14:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The reference is to the policy paper at http://www.imf.org/external/pp/longres.aspx?id=563 (see References section). The IMF has an independent office to evaluate past actions (the IEO). The IEO said a few bad things about the IMF's treatment of the Argentine case. Then the IMF itself hired experts to evaluate the IEO, and these experts concluded that the IEO was not that independent after all. You're right that the section needs to be reworded, though. I'll try to find more references. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reference links- film.

Hi there, I am not sure how to do this-I have tried to make the edits...

but currently the link to "eye of the storm" film is incorrect.- "Eye of the Storm" was a prequel that was shown widely- but its domain now rerouts to "www.ithefilm.com" which is the feature film about the same subjects.

For a direct link for the Eye of the Storm I would go here: http://ithefilm.com/watch_trailers

In addition along with "The Take"- I would suggest including the film entitled "i" which is the feature version of Eye of the Storm.

The web address for this film is www.ithefilm.com its subtitle is "Indymedia, Argentina, and the Questions of Communication"

[edit] Effect of Wealth Distribution

That 450,000 figure is outrageous. It is completely false and unsubstantiated by any official data or studies, except by the 'research' of one lonely agronomist (which should be added, surely has a political agenda). I'm a quite frankly tired of reading these kinds of claims as encyclopedic FACTS. I highly doubt 450,000 people have died in Haiti of hunger in that same period. It is also good to point out that in no other Latin American country article does it talk about such a number of people dying of hunger, and most of those countries are significantly more impovirished. I was quite tempted to just delete that entire entry, but I will wait for opinions on this.

Let's make it clear: saying someone dies of hunger, means they died DIRECTLY from maltutrition, and not from complications from lack of proper nutrition (which could be what it is attempted to be conveyed by such figure), but even so it appears a gross exageration and lacking in multiple sources to corroborate, which I think would be required for such a significant statement to be made. Since when is one study by one man or a 'thinktank' (which by their very nature have an ideological agenda), used as encyclopedic data? I believe it should be discarded. The dugout 17:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)