Talk:Argentina and England football rivalry

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Contents

[edit] Opening comments

Need quotes, references, external links and so on and so forth, but it's a start for a possible article on this subject. Angmering 22:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The piece is sadly lacking an image — I tried in vain to find a free image of one of the games or even separate ones of England and Argentina teams and / or notable players from these matches, but haven't had any luck. Anyone know of such images? Angmering 13:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Record

A list of the all the matches (friendlies, non-FIFA?, etc) would be good.

[edit] British origins of Argentine Football and more sports

A lot of the Argentine teams have some english in their names (Argentinos Juniors, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Racing Club, Quilmes Athletic Club, Newell's Old Boys, etc) and the even the first organized Argentine team was made of English expats (I think it was Alumni), see Football_in_Argentina. Even more, the first time Argentina beast England (At Wembley, I think) is still remebered and celebrated back home. Maybe we should even mention some instances of the Intercontinental Cup, one with Estudiantes de la Plata playing very rough (I think against Nottingham Forest against Man Utd [1]) and another where Liverpool FC refused to play Boca Juniors (scheduling conflicts, was the official word).

Unfortunately we also imported the hooligan tradition, too. :(

It might be worth mentioning that England has influenced Argentine sports in a lot of ways: For example, Argentina has the only competitive Rugby, Field Hockey and Polo teams on the region. Also, is the South American country with the longest Tennis and Golf traditions. Needless to say, all British-originated sports.

Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I've begun a section with some information on the British founding of football in Argentina. I'm not sure whether we should note the Intercontinental Cup games or not, as this article is supposed to be mainly about the national teams... But it could perhaps be noted somewhere. Angmering 21:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is a big part of the animosity... I shouldn't be left out... Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I suppose so. Might be more in Argentina than in England though, as it's not something that gets talked about very much here, in my experience at least. But definitely add a section on it if you want to. :-) Angmering 21:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I like the pre-1966 stuff, definitely makes it a more comprehensive and interesting article. I can't really add anything on the new club level section, as I don't know anything about it unfortunately. Sorry. Could well add another dimension to the page (which is, after all, about the rivalry - if this extends down to club level then particularly notable matches/fixtures should be included). Sliggy 21:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I just did, let me know what you guys think. Thankfully, it was my team (Boca) involved so I can add a little more. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks good, and it's something I didn't know about so I feel educated! :-D Angmering 21:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with both parts of the above :-), adds more depth and detail on the topic. Sliggy 22:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] First Arg. win, happened in 1964, not 1953

I just went here and it seems that the 1953 match was abandoned due to torrential rain after about 20 minutes. The first victory for Argentina was in 1964, in Brazil. I've cross-referenced the information and as far as I can tell it is good. So I've updated the page and added the web site as a source. Sliggy 22:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Shouldn't the article's title be Argentina and England football rivalry ? No big deal, but I think its more standard to sort them alphabetically Mariano(t/c) 09:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Sounds sensible to me, as redirects will be able to guide those who want to put England first. Anyone object? Sliggy 01:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Nope, sounds sensible. It's my fault for not thinking properly when I created the page. I shall therefore do pennance by moving it and fixing all the links... ;-) Angmering 12:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, we're all humans. I too would've put Argentina first, but not even thinking about the alphabet. Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Handbags

I'm going to preempt anyone complaining about the handbags image. I think it perfectly displays how people in England treat things like football rivalry, with humour. We consistently fail to beat our football rivals so we get back by taking the piss out of them. Jooler 11:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

But wasn't the version on The Daily Mirror the version where they're recoiling from a naked woman bending over in front of them, not the handbags one? Angmering 11:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
no. It was the handbags one. It won the What the Paper Say award. See http://www.nmauk.co.uk/nma/do/live/historicpage?MODEL_IN_THE_SESSION=2343 Jooler 12:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting, shows how the memory cheats! :-) Angmering 12:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, we don't always lose, but yes the image adds to the article. Is there anything similar from the Argentine perspective? Sliggy 01:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Well there's the World Cup mascot shenanigans as mentioned in the article, but I don't know how we'd go about getting ahold of copies of those images. Angmering 12:12, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
If I may contribute a small suggestion:

I believe the handbag image is more insultingly offensive than exemplary of British humour. In my opinion, it is substracting impartiality to this laudably neutral article, as it is slighting every Argentinean who visits this page. It is my belief the image should be either deleted or taken out until an Argentinean equivalent is found. Please consider this suggestion as nothing but merely a means to improve this overall well accomplished article. Thank you. 200.55.88.166 20:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering there's no connection between the image and the article itself (I mean, written), and the source of the image is not sourced to be British, it might be a good idea. The picture is not even from the match against England... Mariano(t/c) 12:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The image was on the front page of a national daily British newspaper immediately before a prominent game between England and Argentina. It has everything to do with the England/Argentina football rivalry and how the game is viewed in England. The fact that someone thinks that "it is slighting every Argentinean who visits this page" and that there is not Argentinian equivalent - is exactly the point. It shows the different way that the game is viewed. We treat these things with humour. Please see my comment above. Jooler 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"The picture is a mock-up: that is, it is not factual. An encyclopedia is a collection of facts. It is not necessary to reproduce an example of ridicule to assert that ridicule takes place.)" - It's a fact that a few days before a sigificant match between England and Argentina that picture was emailed all around the world. I had it in my inbox. It is a fact that a couple of days before (I think) a significant match between Enbgland and Argentina that picture featured on the front page of a British national daily newspaper. It is certainly worth noting that in England humour is used to mock football rivals and indeed our own players. Carricature of heros and villans is a significant part of British culture. See http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=801851 for examples poking fun at Beckham. Jooler 08:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kevin McE - Please discuss here rather than simply reverting. Jooler 22:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Your continual re-posting of the contested image suggests that you pay little heed to discussion here. The image in question was created with the intention of offending and ridiculing; the fact that it was published in a newspaper does not make in noteworthy; it does not serve the neutrality of the article; its inclusion appears gratuitous. You acknowledged at the time opf first posting it that it would be controversial, but you seem reluctant to pay attention to other opinions on the posting. I would challenge you to refer it for arbitration or to a vote.Kevin McE 23:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary. Upon noticing the removal of the image I restored the image and I posted a comment above, to which no-one replied. You did not acknowledge my comment, but just removed the image without discussion. I then posted a second comment here after restoring the image, then you once again removed it. I posted a third comment on this page and only now do you come to discuss the issue. So thank you for finally acknowledging the existance of this page. Two things -firstly Voting is evil your "challenge" to take it to arbitration is confrontational, it's far to early in the process to head down that road, civil discussion is required at this stage. Secondly you are wrong to to say as you did in your edit comment "there is no other editor supporting it bar Jooler" - you will notice that at the time the image was added, a whole year ago bar a few days, and mere days after the creation of the article itself, User:Sliggy said "yes the image adds to the article" and Angmering who is a major contributor to this article did not complain. So for an entire year and virtually the entire lifetime of this article the image has been on the page without protest. Then an anonymous editor posts a complaint and someone else suggests removal - but not for the same reasons - and you remove it and do not respond to discussion until now. I think other opinions are required, until a decision is reached, please leave the page in the same state it has been in for the last year. Jooler 08:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I did complain. I still believe the image has no place in the article. As I said before, there is (currently) no connection between the text of the article and the image (no reference from one to the other). Plus, comments such as a typical example of British humour are way off-topic, and there are no proves the image was created in the UK at all!! How do you know it is not just another example of Nigerian humor? Or even Brazilian? I'm quite sure the newspaper publication was posterior to the email boom.
In short, the 2002 WC match was a poor low-profile match that didn't add much to the rivalry other than a victory to England and a controversial penalty; the image itself does not add anything to it, and the text fails to give a context that would justify it. Mariano(t/c) 11:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read the text on image's page - "The Image was created by Carl Baldwin in 2002. http://www.b3ta.com/interview/carlbaldwin/ says "Minutes before England played Argentina in the World Cup of 2002, Carl Baldwin sat down at his PC and photoshopped the image above. He e-mailed it round his office, and the rest is history. The picture was sent round the World, and eventually found its way onto the front cover of the Daily Mirror newspaper. More recently the image won News Photograph of the Year at the What the Papers Say Awards.Carl Baldwin has never claimed copyright for the image. Asked "Have you made any money either directly or indirectly from the Argie Handbag picture?" - he replied "I did get a free lunch at the Café Royal for the 'What the Papers Say' awards." - Okay - so we should add some of this to the article. Jooler 13:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand by my earlier comment, I think the picture adds a humorous touch to the article. It is obvious that it is a fake, and the caption makes plain that it is false. I can't see why its inclusion is any worse — or better — than the comments about World Cup Willie in pirate regalia or Gauchito with his foot on an English lion (in the section "1966 World Cup"). It records the contemporary media coverage. I agree with Mariano that there could be more context in the article itself, although this risks undue prominence for what is actually just humour. Finally, I note that a factual error (David Beckham "now" being captain) had been missed in all this fuss... Sliggy 14:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's because there was nothing wrong with the text. He was the England captain at the 2002 World Cup game. Whether he is any longer or not isn't really relevant to that section. However, if it makes you any happier I'll put it back in a clearer manner.
Oh, and for what little it's worth I think the picture does have a place in the article. Angmering 18:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You (and Mariano) have sorted out the ambiguity. Thanks! Sliggy 22:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The image in question adds nothing to anybody's knowledge or understanding of the rivalry between two national football teams. It is posted as an illustration of a sense of humour: evidently a sense of humour that appeals to some editors here. I think that makes the image suited to a page they may wish to post on flickr.com or something similar, but not an encyclopedic entry. The fact that some people shared an image with others by e-mail does not make it relevant or noteworthy: the fact that a tabloid newspaper published it does not make it news. The intention of the picture was to ridicule and insult: its reproduction in this pages extends that ridicule and insult to a new audience, and that is not the purpose of wikipedia.Kevin McE 22:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"intention of the picture was to ridicule" - correct, just like [Media:Darwin_ape.jpg]. In this instance it is an example of the way the rivalry is viewed in England both popularly and in the media. BTW I have The DVD series The History of Football - One episode of which opens with Maradona openly mocking and ridiculing Peter Shilton. Jooler 23:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Mocking of a long dead scientist for his opinions is very different from denigration of a group of living sportsmen for their nationality. I fail to see how Maradona's behaviour on a DVD has any bearing on the publication on Wikipedia of a photograph that does not depict him. Are you suggesting that it is acceptable to insult all Argentinians on the basis that one Argentinian insults one Englishman? Kevin McE 00:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beckham - Simeone

I think it's worth pointing out (because you rarely seem to see it mentioned elsewhere, and I don't want it to become watered down in this article), that Beckham's flick against Simeone, was not a retaliation for the foul that had just happned during the run of play, but was a retaliation for the way Simeone leaned on Beckham's back as he got up off the pitch. Beckham had been suffering from a back injury prior to the competition and was in genuine pain. Simeone, who appeared to have been shot by a sniper at the same momement that Beckham's heal landed on him said a year later "Obviously, I was being clever. By letting myself fall, I got the referee to pull out a red card immediately. ... In reality, it wasn't a violent blow, it was just a little kick back with no force behind it, and was probably instinctive." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/288889.stm Jooler 19:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think is that important and it is prejudicial towards Simeone. Beckham did kick him and the fact that he over-acted the pain doesn't take away from Beckham's bad judgment call. Both things are clearly stated in the article and emphasizing it more is not really necessary, IMHO. Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting changing anything that the article currently says. I'm just trying to point out, here, on the talk page, that many places that cite this incident leave out the fact that Simeone pressed down on Beckham's back and that it was this and not the foul that sparked Beckham's "instinctive" (as Simeone himself described it) reaction. So I'm just saying that we should ensure that if someone comes along and changes the article to remove some of the details, or summarise this incident, that the information is retained. Jooler 22:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for misunderstanding you, then. I agree. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 22:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. I'd always been under the impression it was Simeone ruffling his hair that really got to Beckham. Still a daft thing to have done, whatever the provocation, mind. Angmering 08:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1966 and all that

Perhaps another thing worth noting on this page. During the 1966 World Cup, there was a strong belief, held by some Ururguayan and Argentinian supporters that their teams were knocked out because of an Anglo-German conspiracy. The W. Germany vs. Uruguay match was refereed by an Englishman (or possibly Scots not sure on this) and the England vs. Argentina match was refereed by a German. There is some information on this here - http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/snapshots/snapshot28/snapshot28.htm Jooler 19:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting and it might well be worth a mention, but personally I think that any more detailed coverage would be more suited to the 1966 FIFA World Cup page. Angmering 20:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English/British

In December User:86.130.179.16 changed all of the references from British to English for whatever reason. Watson Hutton was Scottish, and it's probably likely many of the other early influences may have been Welsh, Irish or Scots. Also there is no real sub-division of British humour caleld English humour. So i've change it back. Jooler 07:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


I changed the references from brit. to eng. because the article is called Argentina and England football rivalry. True, there is no subdivision of British humour called English humour, but if there was it would be a simple copy and paste job as all of the examples of 'British' humour referenced in that article are of English comedians or comedy shows

[edit] Brazil vs. Argentina

Another big rivalry.. Everybody knows the fact that Argentines calls Brazilians as "monkeys" (macaquitos)

There is already another article for this rivalry — Argentina and Brazil football rivalry. In fact it's linked to in the intro here as an example of another major rivalry. Even if I do say so myself, however, the article's not as good as this one. :-) Angmering 22:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "El que no salta es un inglés"

There should be a reference to that popular chant... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.82.64.247 (talk • contribs).

Google translator says "The one that does not jump is an English" - What? Jooler 18:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I have asked one of the Argentinian users who has helped with this page in the past, User:Sebastiankessel, if he can help with this.Angmering 18:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll be happy to. The translation is correct. It is a very popular chant "The one who doesn't jump is an XXX". Basically the expected effect (and the resulting effect) is that everybody at the stadium jumps at the same time to "avoid being called an XXX". The chant started to be sung after the Falklands War of 1982 and it became a traditional chant in every Argentina match, regardless of who are they playing against. "El que no salta es de Brasil" (The one not jumping is a Brazilian).
Obviously, since most Argentine stadiums still have a lot of "standing room" bleachers, it's not that hard for people to just start jumping, although seating spectators almost always join the crowd.
It is quite a sight to see 60000 people jumping at the same time, I'll tell you that.
I'll see if I can compose a little paragraph to that effect.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Sebastian! Angmering 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey no prob, that paragraph was surely missing! :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 15:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed part of that para because it is no more intended for English ears than the playground taunt (and apologies for quoting a homophobic example, but it is the most well known I can think of) "last one on the field is a queer" is intended as a way for homosexually oriented youth to reveal themselves. Any insulting adjective could have been substituted for "inglés" (as you illustrate yourself above): the point is that "inglés" is being used here as a perjorative. I'm afraid that your defence for reverting that it will be heard on TV seems to me to be a red herring: is there much Argentinian domestic football shown on UK television? Do the crowd at an Argentinian league fixture care whether it is being shown in the UK? (The other part that I deleted acknowledged itself to be no more than a rumour: now that it is substantiated, it can properly stay) Kevin McE 22:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gibraltar español, Malvinas argentinas

Pues eso, y los ingleses que se jodan, por invasores, imperialistas, fascistas y racistas.--84.120.10.177 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Utilice por favor el inglés en la versión inglesa de Wikipedia. Gracias. (Translation = Please use English on the English version of Wikipedia. Thank you) Alias Flood 23:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I suspect I get the gist of it... Angmering 07:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV edits reverted by me

  • "for an obvious foul by Alan Shearer on the Argentine goalkeeper" - I remember watching the match and as far as I remember everybody was initially mystified , so I dunno about "obvious" - a lot of comment was made afterwards about how no such foul would have been given in the Premiership.
  • "Such criticism is common in England, whose fans and press are renowned for accusing teams who defeat them of cheating. " - such citicism is common everywhere AFAIK. Look above about how the Argentines believe that England and Germany conspired against them in 1966. Jooler 17:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's common knowledge in the football world that the English media and fans are insane with the way that they always say their opponents 'cheated' when the English lose. Often they blame the ref as well. In some cases, such as Barcelona-Chelsea in 04-05, the commentators spend the entire match complaining, which leads to disgruntled Englishmen sending death threats to the match officials. And in saying "no foul would have been given in the Premiership" - that isn't relevant, as the officiating in England is completely different from the actual rules of the game - completely different from the way the game is officiated in the rest of the world. Peoplesunionpro 03:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1998 World Cup

The part of the third paragraph of the 1998 World Cup section that refers to the Sol Campbell goal is from a completely different game; the England vs Portugal EURO 2004 Quarter Final. --82.34.235.89 18:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)KLC

Nope, it really has happened to Campbell twice, I'm afraid. Angmering 18:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I'd forgotten about that. --82.34.235.89 23:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)KLC


[edit] Neutrality of the article

I believe this article is obviously biased against Argentina. This page should be changed to a more neutral point of view, not one unsubtely supporting the English.

Do feel free to make any changes you believe will help create a more neutral point of view in the article. Alternatively, you could say here which sections you feel need attention and other editors can try and change them if they agree with you. Angmering 13:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


After reading the article, we must admit that unless you are English there are several sentences purely POV, e.g.:

  • the game was particularly noted for the sending-off of Argentina captain Antonio Rattín, which Argentinians considered to be unfair, . Came on, even the scottish see this as unfair. I know uruguayian, italians, spaniard, germans, etc who think the same .
  • Argentina fans did not observe the minute's silence in memory of Stanley Matthews I suggest remove the sentence unless is sourced. Also, how many argentine fans could be that day on the stadium ? , 50?
  • Commentators described the match, which began at twelve noon UK time, as the "longest lunch break in history" as millions in England and throughout the world stopped their jobs and activities to watch the game on TV. irrelevant and purely a english comment. Unless we add the same about Argentina, (all their games were seen by 30 millions fans on any hour) I suggest remove it
  • Although the Argentinian players and public criticised the awarding of the penalty kick — given for a controversial foul on Michael Owen, whom they felt had dived — the game was generally played in a good, if highly competitive, spirit, and there was none of the bitterness that had affected the 1966 and 1986 meetings.. Again just the Argentinian press saw the dive ? Seems to me that as England win this time, as the way the paragraph is written, the game was not 'stolen'.
  • The latest encounter featured punches on the terraces, songs about the Falkland Islands, jibes regarding players' sexuality and general churlishness that (sic), believe it or not, represents a significant thaw in diplomatic relations." fist, is talking from the English side (the songs and others) and I dont see the need of this yellow diary insulted comment. perhaps we should add some argentines tabloid 's comments too
  • where Estudiantes' supporters were highly vocal (???)

IMHO. Jor70 17:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Rivalry - Opening Paragraph

The 1966 section is well sourced and reads:

“ The Argentinian press and public were outraged, and one Argentinian newspaper published a picture of the official World Cup mascot, World Cup Willie, dressed in pirate regalia to demonstrate their opinion of the England team ... England has since been the team they most want to beat. ”

prior of this event, nobody cares about England in Argentina, their matchs have a similar importance of those with any other country. I still remember the argentine TV talking about the 1966 game in the prior hours of the 1986 match. Jor70 23:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you object to in the opening paragraph as it stood before your last reversion? It correctly stated that the UK (not England) was a party in the Falklands war, it credits 1966 as pivotal in the instigation of the rivalry, and it avoids the metaphorical (and therefore unencyclopedic) use of "edge" In what regard was the December version so superior that it should be preserved? Kevin McE 22:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

In the new version we finish making a list of all the WC matchs (Very poor) whilst december version remarks 3 importants facts that we deleted here :

  • 1966 as the origin
  • mention the word clasico showing the importance of the match in Argentina
  • and highlight the event Mano de Dios over the others (per se british pov). I have no problem with the last one but would be important to notice that for Argentines is the the 1966 match. Jor70 10:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Angmering's version from which you reverted to the December version mentions only one footballing date, your preferred one of 1966. Clásico is Spanish, and to most readers of en.wikipedia will not communicate your intended interpretation; however, the reciprocity of the rivalry is explicit in the version you reverted from. I am unclear as to whether you want the 1986 match highlighted in the lead paragraph or not: I think that POV is best avoided by not giving any match the additional profile of inclusion in the lead para. Kevin McE 10:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
  • How about:
The Argentina and England football rivalry is a highly competitive sports rivalry that exists between the national football teams of the two countries, as well as their respective sets of fans. Games between the two teams, even those that are only friendly matches, are often marked by notable and sometimes controversial incidents.
The rivalry is unusual in that it is an intercontinental one; typically, footballing rivalries exist between countries that are close to one another, for example France–Italy or Argentina–Brazil. Argentina is regarded in England as one of the major rivals of the English football team, along with such countries as Scotland and Germany. The rivalry is also keenly felt in Argentina, where only matches against Brazil carry a greater significance in popular perception.
The rivalry emerged across several games during the latter half of the 20th century, even though as of February 2007 the teams have played on only 11 occasions. It was driven by various controversial incidents, such as those in the games played between the teams at the 1966 and 1986 FIFA World Cups. The rivalry was also exacerbated by a non-footballing event, the 1982 Falklands War fought between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Despite the intense rivalry between the national sides, numerous Argentinian players have played for English club sides with few problems.
  • Any good? Angmering 10:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I like it. Kevin McE 11:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


Quite good!, but what a about this with a bit difference:

The Argentina and England football rivalry is a highly competitive sports rivalry that exists between the national football teams of the two countries, as well as their respective sets of fans. Games between the two teams, even those that are only friendly matches, are often marked by notable and sometimes controversial incidents.
The rivalry is unusual in that it is an intercontinental one; typically, footballing rivalries exist between countries that are close to one another, for example France–Italy or Argentina–Brazil. Argentina is regarded in England as one of the major rivals of the English football team, along with such countries as Scotland and Germany. The rivalry is also keenly felt in Argentina (locally described as Clasico), where only matches against Brazil carry a greater significance in popular perception.
It was driven by various controversial incidents, such as those in the games played between the teams at the 1966 and 1986 FIFA World Cups. The rivalry was also somehow exacerbated by a non-footballing event, the 1982 Falklands War. Despite the intense mediatic and entertained rivalry between the national sides, numerous Argentinian players have played for English club sides with few problems.

Too much? Its describes rivalry, how is seen in each country, origin, and finally and very important (IMHO) tone down the conflict perhaps your better english can better style the last point Jor70 11:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think toning down the influence the war had on the rivalry would be nice, but innacurate and something of a whitewash. In the article we have cited quotes from Maradona about revenge, and the English fans chanting about the outcome of the war over twenty years later. The fact is, however distasteful we might find it now, the war was and probably still is a major factor in the feelings that emerge when the sides play, so I don't think the "somehow" is approproate there.
I must confess I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "mediatic and entertained" — do you mean to say, perhaps, that the rivalry is media-driven and on the whole entertaining? Angmering 11:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! that the idea . About the 1982 war (perhaps due obvious reasons) have more influence in England than Argentina , other than those Diego quotes , you will not see the argentine media or fans massive talking about the 1982 war prior the 2002 or 2005 matchs but they surely mention all prior controversial matchs Jor70 11:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
It's still true to say it was a factor in the increase in the rivalry though, even if as you suggest it's mostly on the English side — I wouldn't know, I've never been to Argentina :-). As for the latter point — "entertaining" would be POV, but we could have something like "Despite the intense rivalry between the national sides, and its high media and public profile, numerous Argentinian players have played for English club sides with few problems." Angmering 12:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

ok, then should be

The Argentina and England football rivalry is a highly competitive sports rivalry that exists between the national football teams of the two countries, as well as their respective sets of fans. Games between the two teams, even those that are only friendly matches, are often marked by notable and sometimes controversial incidents.
The rivalry is unusual in that it is an intercontinental one; typically, footballing rivalries exist between countries that are close to one another, for example France–Italy or Argentina–Brazil. Argentina is regarded in England as one of the major rivals of the English football team, along with such countries as Scotland and Germany. The rivalry is also keenly felt in Argentina (locally described as Clasico), where only matches against Brazil carry a greater significance in popular perception.
It was driven by various controversial incidents, mainly those in the games played between the teams at the 1966 and 1986 FIFA World Cups. The rivalry was also exacerbated by a non-footballing event, the 1982 Falklands War. Despite the intense rivalry between the national sides, and its high media and public profile, numerous Argentinian players have played (and still play) for English club sides with few problems.

I replaced the talked about, and now I marked bold 2 others changes. But I still think the last sentence is highly an English POV, the rivalry in fact was exacerbated by the War and the Hand of God but in England , in Argentina really was and is the 1966 cup. This should be differentiate in some way. Jor70 12:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the lead in the main article, making some compromise changes as suggested here. I took out the brackets in the last bit as the clarification isn't really necessary, and brackets look ugly in lead sections anyway. Angmering 12:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I also reinstated the "several games" bit, which I didn't notice you'd removed, as it avoids pushing the POV of either country as to what the most important games of the rivalry have been. Angmering 12:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Apart from my dislike of brackets in opening sections, I think that the Clásico reference is inappropriate in en.wikipedia. It is, after all, a Spanish word that means a match between rivals, and so it adds nothing, but confuses the meaning for non-Spanish speakers. I think it is worth making the distinction between England and the UK in reference to the war, but I'm not too bothered so long as it does not say (as it did before) the war between the two nations. The qualification "and still play" is not necessary, as this can be taken as read in normal English usage: I would still hope that this line would be sufficient to allow for the deletion of the paragraph about individual players; it is not POV, and if there are English players in the Argentinian leagues, the sentence can be made reciprocal. Mainly is unverifiable: I would suggest including instead. So I would have:
  • The Argentina and England football rivalry is a highly competitive sports rivalry that exists between the national football teams of the two countries, as well as their respective sets of fans. Games between the two teams, even those that are only friendly matches, are often marked by notable and sometimes controversial incidents.
The rivalry is unusual in that it is an intercontinental one; typically, footballing rivalries exist between countries that are close to one another, for example France–Italy or Argentina–Brazil. Argentina is regarded in England as one of the major rivals of the English football team, along with such countries as Scotland and Germany. The rivalry is also keenly felt in Argentina, where only matches against Brazil carry a greater significance in popular perception.
It was driven by various incidents, including controversies in matches played between the teams at the 1966 and 1986 FIFA World Cups and the 1982 Falklands War. Despite the intense rivalry between the national sides, and its high media and public profile, numerous Argentinian players have played for English club sides with few problems. Kevin McE 13:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The word clasico doesnt means just a match between rivals, is like a Inter-Milan, River-Boca, in fact what means is much MORE than a game and when I was talking about being media-driven I was refering to the rivalry not the players, in the new sentence we are talking about the player profiles and that not the issue. The rivalry is highly media-driven. Jor70 13:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
But all of that (the notion that it has more significance than 90 minutes of action and maybe 3 league points) is already implicit in talking about a match between rivals: the point is not clarified for users of an English language source by a Spanish word that links (inappropriately) to local derbies. I do not see that I have linked the media interest to individual players. Kevin McE 13:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
About clasico, I still think that it is important to let know all users (english or not) that this match is locally known in Argentina as a derby , the current version is really ok. The line about games of the 20 century is really necessary ?? I dont think anyone played in 1800s and in that way we will forced to update the lead paragraph any time they play. I would start the 3rd paragraph just from It was driven by various controversial incidents, .... . Sorry If I do not understand you about the high profile term, Its seems to me that the current high profile line refers to the players be high profile and not the match ifself. Jor70 12:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The word clásico does not have the effect on English language speakers that you suggest, and the word derby is not appropriate in this case, as in UK usage that only refers to a rivalry between close neighbours, but I would leave in the remainder of that sentence, making clear that the rivalry is reciprocal. The key words in the opening sentence of the 3rd para are the latter half of the 20th century, to refer broadly to the period 1950-2000, not merely to exclude the 19th century. I would prefer to delete the month-specific dating in the sentence that you are concerned about in terms of frequent updating, but changing one word every few years is not an onerous editing task. As regards your last point, I fear that your understanding of English may have let you down: the it in its high media and public profile refers to the intense rivalry between the national sides in the opening part of the sentence, not to high profile players. Kevin McE 16:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then the current version stands ? thanks for explain me the profile issue. (keep an eye on those 11 matches, it would probably be another this year) Jor70 17:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
So we're basically sorted then? :-) I have removed the month-specific reference, as Kevin suggested, as I think that's a good point. Angmering 18:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe some English language users (Angmering?) would like to comment on the value of clásico in this context. I maintain that it adds nothing to the meaning of a sentence that states that the rivalry is keenly felt in Argentina, and that it is falsely linked to local derby as it is clearly not about a rivalry between neighbours. Kevin McE 19:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Tricky one... Personally I don't have any strong feelings as to whether it stays or goes, but it does help to convey some of the strength of the feeling possibly... But then again, the basic description does that anyway. Possibly we need to see if we can get some more than just the three of us debating this — ask for some opinions on the football wikiproject, maybe? Angmering 19:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Argentine/Argentinian

I think we should settle the Argentine/Argentinian discussion for once and for all. We already discussed this in other articles quite some time ago and decided to use the adjective Argentine, while for the demonym we could either user Argentine or Argentinian. But please, in no case should Argentinian be used as an adjective! --Mariano(t/c) 16:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

By what lexical source do you claim that one cannot say, for example, "the Argentinian army"?

The only on-line UK English style guide listed at Style guide that is accessible and offers an opinion (The Guardian, as cited in my edit notes) gives Argentinian, but never Argentine. I believe "Argentine" as an adjective (as is the case for The Argentine as a name for the country) is at best dated, and almost obsolete: its use seems to me to be a mixture of an archaic style and a false assumption that it is a more authentic translation of argentino/a. If you can cite a modern authority that uses Argentine that would of course call for a re-think on my part. Perhaps you could direct me to the previous discussions on other articles.Kevin McE 17:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't find the proper discussion, I only found this one. I didn't mean it was gramatically wrong to use Argentinian as an adjective, just plain horrible. If you search (just to use your example) for "Argentinian Army", you'll get way less hits than with "Argentine Army", even if ignoring Wikipedia hits ([2]/[3]). What's more, Google will ask you Did you mean: Argentine Army when quering for "Argentinian Army".
OK, not really encyclopedic, but it does give you a good idea that the term Argentine is far from almost obsolete. What do you mean with modern authority? An updated Dictionary? A government institution? A hooligan's page?
--Mariano(t/c) 18:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I will revert the grammatical modifs after waiting for a week without any answer.--Mariano(t/c) 18:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

"in no case should Argentinian be used as an adjective!": it is listed in every dictionary I can find as an adjective! Have you found any that do not describe it as one? I suspect that very old dictionaries, but only old ones, might not list it as such, that is why I asked for a modern lexical source. Whether it is horrible is your POV: it is not incorrect, and I maintain that it is a more modern use (but not merely a modalism). You acknowledge that it was a matter of debate elsewhere in Wikipedia, and yet you seem to be dogmatic in your right to apply your opinion. Kevin McE 10:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course my horrible comment was POV. That was the exclamation about. I stated my possition and backed it with certain sources/numbers; that's all. Argentine is also defined both as a noun and an adjective in all dictionaries. To me, both the adjective and the noun should be Argentine, but several people (and I'm sorry I can't find the discussion) provided certain support for the use of Argentinian as the demonym. And the fact that it's of modern use doesn't make it neither correct nor encyclopedic; after all "dude" is also in the dictionary. --Mariano(t/c) 20:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
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