Talk:Ape

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Contents 1 Mystery ape 2 Drifting meaning of "ape" 3 "True apes" 4 Pierolopithecus 5 reorg 6 Humans are not apes 7 Inconsistency among the quasi-religious 8 Leave off 9 Not helpful 10 Moving on 11 Neutrality disputed 12 Ok, humans are apes. 13 About the new species 14 Bonobo 15 Questions 16 Ape → Hominoid 16.1 Strikeouts 17 UtherSRG keeps being a fool and removing my edits 18 3RR Violation 19 history section 20 This is getting absurd 21 more refutation 22 Ape Art 23 Humans are not apes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 24 Trying to cut back wordiness 25 References in 'Cultural aspects of non-human apes' 26 Humans, Apes or not? can finally be put to rest 27 Proposed solution to the debate 28 A question to those who don't accept that humans are apes. 29 Evidence that there are still a resonable number of scientists who dispute that humans are apes 30 English vs. science 31 Apes as Food? 32 The encyclopedia referring to humans as apes is a personal attack 33 Africa vs. Asia 34 Page broken 35 Behaviour and cognition 36 Heed the warning - get back to Wikipedia 37 UtherSRG deletions

[edit] Mystery ape

Moved from article:

Since the concept includes some quite different animals, most of the information should be on the individual pages. But perhaps some common information could go here. Perhaps something about conservation issues? (Most ape species are rare or endangered.)

What about the new mystery ape that has recently been photographed, captured and had its mitochondrial DNA analyzed? Seems to be a third species of chimp; a few people have suggested it may be descended from a weird Gorilla-chimp hybrid. It seems to be a previously unknown species of chimp. This topic should be discussed in our articles on Ape, Chimpanzee and Cryptozoology. (Of course, the text should not be identical in each article.) RK 04:20, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Bondo Mystery Ape

CNN article: Seeking answers to big 'mystery ape'

Leaky Foundation intro on Elusive African Apes: Giant Chimps or New Species?

National Geographic news: Elusive African Apes: Giant Chimps or New Species?

[edit] Drifting meaning of "ape"

I have had a go at the Ape page. It was a bit of a muddle. The real problem is that the concept of "ape" has drifted over the centuries, from any tailless nonhuman primate to its current meaning of a member of one of two particular families. However even now primate taxonomy is even more of a mess than most orders, so it is hard to get consistent terminology, and authorities do not agree on what the names of those families should be, or whether they should be in a superfamily. I've gone for a version that seems simple to grasp. There did seem to me to be one error in the article as I found it, though: I don't think there's any serious usage of "ape" that doesn't include the hylobatids.

Sorry, that last comment came from seglea at 04:55 UTC 031105 - I thought the signature, date, time got added automatically.

Try yet again! it came from seglea

when exactly did humans become apes? i'd like a year.

That depends on if you are asking when humans genetically became apes (which would be we've always been apes), or when it was first postulated that the other ape species and humans were descended from a common extinct ape ancestor (which would be about when Charles Darwin wrote Origin of the Species), or when it became a more common understanding than just a scientific one. - UtherSRG 18:24, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

more of angry sarcasm, sorry. i suppose what i meant was when was it that humans ceased being in a clade analogous respective to apes as apes were to monkeys, for that is how i remember it being said.

So you mean this? - UtherSRG 21:44, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

When you are speaking of apes here you cannot redefine the English word ape to include man. It is always "the great apes and man." You can study clades all you want and you can make Hominidae, Homininae, etc., mean whatever the scientific evidence warrants at the moment. Ape however is not and never was a scientific classification or a scientific word and the Hom- group of words doea not mean "ape" or "great", it means "man." There is no justification at all for calling Hominidae "great apes" and this would be a serious breach of the English language, especially as we are going to talk about apes and true apes. And just what are we, the truest of the true apes, faithful to our apish nature? No, I understand why the Wikipedia author who used ape to mean us did so, but I would point out that it is an ordinary English word, not a scientific word, and we cannot use it to mean us without a serious contortion of all the rest of philosophy, and who is Wikipedia to do that? Who are palaeoanthropologists to do that? But I do not think they are. I think this is strictly Wikipedia so we better get rid of the idea. We can say it without implying men are apes. They may be Hominidae along with the apes but they are not apes. Is there anything more to be said on the subject? So, I have changed a few words (only a few) in the leads of three articles to remove man from being an ape. In general however I understand and sympathize with cladistics and the desire to keep up to date. I don't see any apes trying to keep up to date. Seriously, even if you conclude (as seems to be the case) there is no scientific justification for breaking out man from the great apes, when you use "man" and "great apes" you are not being scientific. Science adopted the Greek and Latin vocabulary to avoid such conflicts as this. We cannot render scientific language into ordinary language. It does not compute. If you want science then you have to learn the language of science. Meanwhile, we need to keep out vernacular English so that we can communicate. I am not an ape, you are not an ape, he, she and it are not apes, we are not apes, etc. I could claim that the author is calling me names on Wikipedia; to wit, "great ape." (joke). By now you must surely see what I mean and agree.Dave 01:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No original research. Apes include humans. This is verifiable and factual. End of story. Malamockq 05:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"Although the superfamily of apes has always included humans, in its taxonomical definition, a more specific connotation of the word "ape" has found its way into the vernacular. This common usage of the word excludes humans when referring to apes." Ummm, no! Ape is vernacular English word in use for more than 400 years ( Shakespeare used it ), which does not include humans. Can anyone cite a scientific definition of the word, including humans, which is older than the common usage. I don't think so. I agree with Dave.Merkanmich 05:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "True apes"

"Except for gorillas and Humans, all true apes are agile climbers of trees."

What are "true apes"? Brianjd | Why restrict HTML? | 08:02, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)

Took me a bit to figure it out... it's because there are primate species with "ape" in the name which aren't apes, such as the Barbary Ape. I'll see what I can do to make this clearer. - UtherSRG 15:21, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I also find that slightly odd -- I would consider humans to be agile climbers of trees as well. -- 68.35.154.196 18:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pierolopithecus

Hrm.... Nice try Tim, but I don't like the way it sits there. The listing is of extant genera. If we list Pierolopithecus, then someone is going to come along and add some more, and then someone else will add some more.... until the extant genera are buried in the extinct ones. I'd rather keep the listing as extant, and possibly put a link to category:Early hominids. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:32, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

The correct spelling: Pierolapithecus. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 01:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reorg

Now that the legal status section has been added, I'm thinking the whole article needs some reorg.

• 0 Intro
• 1 Historical terminology
• 2 Biology
• 3 Cultural aspects
• 4 News
• 5 History of hominoid taxonomy
• 6 Classification and evolution
• 7 Legal status
• 8 References

I think "Legal status" and "Historical terminology" should be placed next to or within "Cultural aspects". I think that the "News" section should be removed - it's not news any more. I think that "Biology", "Classification and evolution" and "History of hominoid taxonomy" should be grouped together similarly to the cultural sections. However, I'm not sure the best way to go about all of this. I also like the "History of hominoid taxonomy" as a bridge between the biological and the cultural. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I changed News to New Species? for the time being; it could be incorporated into one of the other sections but I couldn't decide where. Do you know of any follow-up info on that? Also added a pic. Gibbons don't get no respect.

I also noticed that Cultural Aspects are odds and ends from human culture not a discussion about culture amongst apes. Marskell 12:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's not about ape culture but about apes in human culture. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Humans are not apes

Put your political correctness aside for a moment. Taxonomy notwithstanding, the term "great apes" has never been understood to include humans. By definition, apes are non-humans. Please quit twisting terms for political expediency. Or, if you prefer, show evidence that current usage refers to humans as "great apes", or that the term "great apes" is commonly understood to include humans.

"Taxonomy notwithstanding"??? Taxonomy's the whole point! That's like saying "Economics notwithstanding, so-and-so's a really good investor." — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 03:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Please do not feed the trolls. Let them fall into the traps they set up and help them to move along, but please don't feed them. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you. ;). Marskell 12:12, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

No trolling here. And no, taxonomy is not the "whole point". Common usage is the "whole point" (my bad for bringing "academia" into this). Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an anthropological journal

Admit it: no one, but no one, uses the term "great apes" in conversation to mean humans. Well, maybe a few odd people in the anthropology community. But the term "great apes" MEANS "large, non-human primates". That's what it was invented for. That anthropologists may have taken the term and redefined it for their own use is completely irrelevant.

Wikipedia is not a collection of common usage information. It's a full, general, encyclopedia. This means being a bit more technical than just plain common usage would allow, so that its use as a reference can improve individual knowledge, not lower it. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Calling humans "apes" doesn't "improve individual knowledge", it merely ambituates terminology. You folks really need to set aside your religious fervor for a moment and acknowledge that, among 99.9% of the population, "ape" does not now, never has, and never will refer to humans. I'm amazed that there appears to be no one editing this topic who has the capacity to see that this is a matter of definition. I would have thought the collective IQ high enough to understand a simple argument of definition, rather than running to quasi-religious arguments such as below:

It took about 300 years for some folks to accept the idea that the Earth is a moving planet rather than the stationary center of the universe. We probably have about another 150 years before everyone will accept the idea of wikipedia including humans in the ape clade. --JWSchmidt 19:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, this is pure bull. The earth moving is an observation. What "ape" means is a definition. The poster above is correct: "ape" does not and never has meant "human", except perhaps among a very, very tiny minority of people. Among Scientologists, "power" has a specialized meaning. Shall we redo the Wikipedia discussion of "power" to be from the Scientologist viewpoint? (I bet there are ten times as many Scientologists as there are anthropologists who refer to humans as "apes".) 71.102.98.219 22:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)SB

I take it back. Apparently there is one person capable of understanding the argument. Thank you, SB, for not being another lemming.

Technically, not everyone believes the Earth is a moving planet, so the snarkier part of me wants to say that 150 years is too short an estimate. *grins* However, everyone isn't what's needed anyway. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You said don't feed the troll, so don't feed the troll. Revert him/her. Ape includes humans, end of story. Marskell 23:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Since Darwin, there has been a continual effort to keep a barrier between humans and other apes. For those who feel that the biological fact of humans being apes is irrelevant, there is at least one group outside of the scientific community that accepts humans as apes: those non-scientists who are working to protect the non-human apes. first Google hit --JWSchmidt 23:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Marskell (and Schmidt, and Uther), why are you being so anal-retentively proscriptive in your definition? This is not a personal attack on your man-ape religion. It is a fact of word usage. A "lion" is not a "tiger" and a "mouse" is not a "rat", regardless of how closely the two species might be related. A "human" is not an "ape" in any normal definition of the word. Throw as big a tantrum as you like, but kicking and screaming doesn't change the fact of how the word is used among English speakers. Why must you proselytize your own religion?

If you want to argue that a human should be considered an ape, that's another thing. It might even be worthwhile bringing up your argument in the article. But that's not how the word is used, so it's not how the article should describe it. An ape is an animal, which is to say, not human.

So you are saying that humans are not animals? Nice argument. For if we aren't animals, then we surely can't be apes. Yes, we are animals. We are mamamals. We are primates. We are apes. We are great apes. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Humans are apes, and I think this person arguing otherwise is the one with religious problems keeping them from seeing the truth. Why is everyone so resistant to the idea that humans are part of the natural world? Also, comparing a technical definition in anthropology to a technical definition in Scientology is a huge fallacy, since anthropology is actually a scientific discipline, whereas Scientology is a cultish religious group. In other words, anthropologists are experts regarding humans and apes, but Scientologists are not experts regarding "power" (except as they define it, which has no bearing outside of their group). Common understandings of scientific ideas and concepts are often very different from the realities, but you don't see anyone trying to say we should only have articles on the layperson's interpretations of things, which would be ridiculous for an encyclopedia. Anyways, some taxonimists actually label chimps (and possibly other great apes) under the genus Homo, which makes them HUMANS! The Ungovernable Force 07:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Finally, a glimmer of understanding begins to peek through. Yes, that is what I am saying. The word "animal" is a term used (by humans) to describe other "animate" beings that are NOT human.

For if we aren't animals, then we surely can't be apes. Yes, we are animals.

No, we are not.

We are mamamals.

Yes, that we are.

We are primates.

Yes, that we are.

We are apes. We are great apes.

No, see, there you go, falling into your pattern of misusage. We are "mammals" and we are "primates", which are both taxonomic categories. We are not, however, "apes".

---

reply to 131.107.0.80: When you explore the universe, one of the things that can happen is discovery of new ways to understand familiar objects and processes. An example from outside of biology is recognition that a single force, gravity, can account both for falling objects on Earth and the Earth-Moon orbital system. Prior to this realization, people assumed that there had to be two different accounts for
(1) how an apple falls off a tree
and for
(2) what holds the Moon in its place in the sky.
Realization that one rule of gravitation accounts for both, changed the way people could think about the solar system.

Agreed. Yet we still maintain separate terms for "Moon" and "apple", despite their inherent sameness.

This misses the point. The point is, we do not have both "apple force" and "Moon force", all we have is gravity that applies to both apples and the Moon. --JWSchmidt 15:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Comparative anatomists such as Charles Darwin were able to recognize the relatedness of humans and other apes. The Ape article describes the process by which study of apes led to the full realization of our position in the ape clade. By detailed study of the molecular components of apes (mainly proteins and the DNA sequences of chromosomes), the data allow us to firmly conclude that humans fit nicely within the ape clade and that we are closest to chimps. Cultural biases that tend to make people ignore the similarities between humans and other apes can now be recognized and passed over in favor of recognition of our actual place in the tree of life.

I would guess that any careful scientist would never be so brash as to proclaim that we have found "our actual place in the tree of life". Be that as it may, this is not a religious argument about whether or not humans are related to chimpanzees, which you seem to want to make it. This is a matter of definition.

Apply this attitude to gravity. You could try to define "apple force" as being distinct from "Moon force". Your definition would not make it true that there are two different forces. We have to let the evidence decide the matter, not tradition or anything else. --JWSchmidt 15:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I would not object to a short section in the Ape article that described the fact that many people still attempt to promote use the term "ape" so as to exclude its applicability to humans.

Here, you betray your inability to write from a NPOV. You wrongly assume that anyone who wishes to define the term in context of its actual usage must be "attempt[ing] to promote [exclusive] use [of] the term 'ape'". Of course, this is absurd, somewhat like saying that "many people still attempt to promote use of the term 'dolphin' so as to exclude its applicability to blue whales". Well, duh. Blue whales AREN'T dolphins, any more than humans are apes.

The point is, word meanings do change. Concepts evolve. At first, people had the idea that there is a force that applies to falling objects on Earth. People like Galileo performed experiments and quantitatively described the force of "(Earth) gravity". Later, Newton recognized that the orbit of the Moon could be accounted for by the same force. Previously, people had imagined that something other than "(Earth) gravity" was needed to account for the movement of the Moon. The meaning of "gravity" was changed by recognition of the universal nature of gravity. This is now celebrated as a "law". People have given up on the ancient biases that in the past led people to imagine "celestial spheres" or an ethereal force that might apply only to the celestial objects like the Moon and not apples. People just expanded their concept of gravity to include both celestial and Earthly movements. Similarly, there is now no reason to resist expanding your concept of "ape" to include humans. --JWSchmidt 15:59, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

This is like trying to claim that gravity does not apply equally to the Moon and apples.

Wrong. It's like trying to claim that blue whales aren't dolphins. Which they aren't.

What you are saying here is the equivalent of "humans aren't gorillas" or "humans aren't gibbons" or "humans aren't Old World monkeys". No one here is saying that humans are gorillas. However, dolphins are a group of cetaceans that don't include the cetacean species Blue Whale; apes are a group of primates that does include humans. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there should be discussion of the term "non-human ape" and why it is so commonly used by scientists and, increasingly, by non-scientists who recognize the fact that we are apes.

Except for one thing; "we" humans aren't apes. We're humans. Why is this so hard?

"Why is this so hard?" <-- Maybe you should provide the evidence that supports your view that humans are not apes. The Ape article outlines the reasons why scientists have decided that humans do fit within the ape clade. Note: this is a matter that is decided by evidence about the nature of humans and other animals, not by tradition. We do not decide if gravity applies to the Moon based on thousands of years of tradition that held that Earthly physics must be different than celestial physics. --JWSchmidt 16:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

There could even be an attempt to explain why it is that some members of some religious sects find it important to deny the fact that humans are apes.

Or why some quasi-religious types insist on modifying the current usage of words and then insisting that theirs is The One And True Definition.

There could be a link from the Ape article to some sociology page that fully explores this cultural phenomenon. --JWSchmidt 13:41, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

But if you wrote that, would we get the same POV as you insist on putting forth here?

Ape is and should be regarded as a word to refer to all members of Hominoidea that are not humans. If humans are apes, then there is no point whatsoever in having the word ape--we already have Hominoidea to describe that cladistic family. I don't understand where the handful of anthropologists get off taking a word that already had an understood use and then bastardizing it to become a largely useless and meaningless term. If you are going to make use of the term ape to include humans for scientific reasons, then just use Hominoidea, since you are, after all, a scientist. Elsewise this is just pointless.

Taxonomists made the word Hominoidea, and they can go ahead an do whatever they want with that word. But here you decided to take an existing word which meant something very different, and reassign that same word to have redundant status with a new word only useful for taxonomists and of no use whatsoever to laymen. This is absurd. Humans are humans, apes are apes, and together they are the Hominoidea superfamily. Why are scientist always trying to redefine everything? Scientists do not have the final say on the meaning of words that have been in use for centuries. No one gave any scientist that authority, and the English language does not need to obey the every whim of the scientific community. Ape is not a clade--Hominoidea is a clade. I do not doubt evolution nor the common ancestry of humans and apes, but humans are not apes. You are trying to promote an agenda--to force people into believe the relatedness of humans and apes by calling humans apes--and this is not in line with an NPOV approach. You will find few strronger advocates of evolution than myself, but this notion of deciding to arbitrarily define ape as synonymous with Hominoidea is nothing but confusing and excessive.

---

I just wanted to note that an Answers.com search reveals that the American Heritage Dictionary and Britannica Concise Encyclopedia does not name humans in their initial definition of apes, though the Britannica uses the term nonhuman apes later in the article. Even more interestingly, the Columbia University Press Encyclopedia defines ape as "any primate of the subfamily Hominoidea, with the possible exception of humans". 71.167.118.253 18:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency among the quasi-religious

Marskell: I also noticed that Cultural Aspects are odds and ends from human culture not a discussion about culture amongst apes. Marskell 12:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

UtherSRG: Yes, it's not about ape culture but about apes in human culture. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Note both Marskell and UtherSRG here doing exactly what they declaim in others: Differentiating between "apes" on the one hand and "humans" on the other. In religions such as Christianity, I believe this would be known as "rank hypocrisy". Not sure what their religion calls it. Certainly not "science", as any honest scientist is always exceedingly careful in his definitions and usage. Remember, friends: Descriptive, not proscriptive.

No, there is no inconsistency here. "apes in human culture" is talking about the general category (ape) within the context of a narrower category (human). I've never said there was a difference between humans and apes, only that you and I disagree on what that difference is. Humans are a species of ape, are a species in the ape superfamily Hominoidea, in the great ape family Hominidae, which are all in the animal kingdom Animalia. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Leave off

Seriously again, I'd suggest ceasing to respond to this fellow. Just revert the errors. This is not an Encyclopedia of Conventional Usage. That is enough and s/he is essentially a vandal just looking for a soapbox. Marskell 16:10, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

That's about the level of discourse I figured I would get from you, Marskell. I don't preach your One True Religion, so therefore I'm a vandal. No, I'd say you are the soapboxer, not I.

[edit] Not helpful

Anonymous poster, I agree with your point that they are abusing the common usage of the term "ape", but constant, repetitive revisions aren't going to solve the problem. It looks like you are making changes from Microsoft, given your IP. I'm at Microsoft and would be happy to meet with you. Let me know who/where you are and we can talk. In any case, I encourage you to discuss the issue here and take normal channels to get your changes included. As I said, I mostly agree with you, so I'm not trying to harrass you. Just pointing out that your current tack won't work. You claim Uther and the others are "religious", but you should know that many religious types only respond slowly (if at all) to argumentation or to being told how stupid they are. (As a religious type myself, I know I don't much appreciate being told how stupid I am because I believe something or other.)

Yes, SB, I am at MS, but no, I don't particularly care to meet with anyone, no offense intended. I'm busy and only post between builds and such.

You think I'm bad? Check out the responses below. Are these people stupid, or are they liars? Because I don't see any other possibility.

Just curious: Does everyone understand Anonymous' point, that "ape" doesn't mean "human" in any context outside a strict anthropological view? (And a few who want to claim personhood for the apes.) Everyone seems to want to browbeat Anonymous for being some sort of sectarian, but his/her arguments are purely definitional in nature. I find them very convincing; indeed, I found reference to humans as apes to be a source of confusion, or at least of a severely POV writing that seems agenda-driven.71.102.98.219 17:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)SB

This is not an Encyclopedia of Conventional Usage. That people may think Bats are birds doesn't stop us from listing them as mammals. Marskell 17:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Bull. Thinking that "bats are birds" has nothing whatsoever to do with recognizing the meaning of the term "ape". You are introducing a red herring. Saying "humans are apes" is like saying "Japanese are Caucasians". It is simply false by definition. Privately redefining "Caucasian" to include "Japanese", as if to recognize the underlying "humanness" of both groups, does not solve the problem, any more than redefining "ape" to include "human" in order to recognize the underlying genetic heritage of both solves the problem that APE DOES NOT MEAN HUMAN.

reply to 71.102.98.219: Everyone understands the fact that many people do not think of humans as apes. This does not mean that the Ape article should say that humans are not apes. --JWSchmidt 17:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

It's not a matter of "many people do not think of humans as apes", Schmidt. It's a matter that the word "ape" does not and never has meant "human", except as SB pointed out in very specialized or agenda-driven cases.

Anon would like us to say that humans aren't animals! Just because people have a misunderstanding of reality

How utterly condescending of you. What, exactly, do you think I am misunderstanding?

doesn't mean that our articles need to have that same misunderstanding.

It's definitional, Uther. Unless you're hopelessly stupid or a liar, you must surely understand that.

Instead, we should note the misunderstanding, and then go on with talking about what actually is. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. And "what actually is", is that "ape" does not now nor ever has historically meant "human".

Anonymous, this is not helpful. You will simply get yourself banned along with everyone else at MS (which I am, at the moment). You're listed at the 3RR page. Request arbitration or something, but forcing the issue won't solve anything. It will just get you and other MSers banned. 131.107.0.80 18:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)SB

Suck it up, SB. These three are bullies. They refuse to acknowledge the point or even discuss it. You said so yourself. I'm not going to just take this lying down.

[edit] Moving on

Well, the anon has been blocked, but this issue still isn't resolved. Anon's point is that "Ape" has a meaning outside of the anthropological view? I think that part of the problem here is that Hominoidea redirects to Ape. As Humans are certainly of the superfamily Hominoidea, they should be mentioned as a significant part of this superfamily. Could this conflict be ameliorated by simply splitting the two concepts into separate articles? Hominoidea would retain the anthropological aspects of the term, while Ape would be about the animals commonly known as "Apes"? I am not a biologist or anything, so this is merely speaking from the perspective of an outsider admin who saw the conflict come up on his radar. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The thing is, humans are apes in every biological sense of those two words. What can and should be done is, as has been said, to note the misunderstanding in common usage (and I balk at calling it common usage) and move on. However, the "Historicl terminology" section already accomplishes this to some degree. I will endeavor to address this. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I will second Uther and repeat my above point for the third or fourth time: this is not an encylcopedia of convential usage. If it were, AIDS could be listed as a "gay disease" and wives could be listed as "chattle." Yes, "ape" can be described as distinguishing humans from our relatives (though again, I second Uther as to whether this is "common" usage—my kid brother knows we're apes even if my older brother doesn't (no joke)) but the seperation is not what ape means. Ape means Hominoidea. I mean that's it, in a verifiable this is it sense. Yes, you can say "I was talking with a number of so-and-sos and they only use ape to mean non-human." Well, good for you; we are not obligized to apologize to the people who don't understand the rudiments of taxonomy. We should not split the two terms and ultimately introduce more ambiguity. Marskell 01:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Anon showed his hand when he started making statements such as "You folks really need to set aside your religious fervor", "your man-ape religion", "Why must you proselytize your own religion", "this is not a religious argument about whether or not humans are related to chimpanzees, which you seem to want to make it", "some quasi-religious types insist on modifying the current usage of words". People often ascribe their own motivations to other people, and this is exactly the same language as used by those who refer to Darwinism as a religion. Anon wishes to separate humans from animals, as he has said above. This is his motivation, and he is clearly not interested in the science of the issue. Anon's point that the word "Ape" is sometimes incorrectly used has now been added the article by UtherSRG, just like the Whale article mentions that some people referred to the animals as fish. Well done, now it's said. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 04:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

You obviously have no idea what Anon's point was. Though crudely put, he made it perfectly clear: The word "ape" does not mean "human". It's not an incorrect usage to say that "ape" means "non-human", since it very obviously means exactly that. (Why else would calling someone a "big ape" be considered an insult?) I am very well aware of the scientific arguments stating that humans and apes are of the same general type, and that in fact that some apes (e.g. chimps) are more similar to humans than they are to other apes. If you read Anon's stuff carefully, it seems he was well aware of that, too. He simply pointed out (correctly) that the word "ape" does not now and never has meant "human".

And frankly, though I disapproved of his tantrum and his getting all of Microsoft banned, I think he's absolutely right about the religion thing. There is no other reasonable explanation for why people would simply refuse to recognize what a word actually means. (As for the specious comparison below (above), "fish" hasn't included whales in over a century, so the comparison is nonsense.) As Marskell and others seem unable (or more likely unwilling) to grasp, this is not a question of taxonomy, it's a question of linguistics. 20:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)SB - moved by UtherSRG (talk) to prevent breaking the existing text

Sorry, but you are incorrect. During the debate I asked a bunch of folks here at work, just to see if I was being stubborn. I asked, "Are you an ape?" Without fail, everyone was able to reply with some form of affirmative answer. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality disputed

Humans are not apes. Stop trying to redefine the word ape to include humans! 64.200.124.189 22:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Please read this page. The issue you raise has already been discussed. --JWSchmidt 00:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

No, it has not been "discussed". Some anonymous poster tried to discuss it, and when he was shouted down, he threw a tantrum and got kicked off. But his point was never addressed, except by those unable to comprehend that it wasn't an issue of taxonomy, but of definition.

64.200.124.189 and the MS Anon poster are both right. "Ape" doesn't mean "human" and never has. I'm surprised and more than a little disappointed that so many people utterly refuse to recognize this obvious truth of linguistic usage. 20:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)SB

Disagree. Different usage has already been noted in the article. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. Different usage has been disparaged in the article, which still maintains (wrongly) that "ape" means "human".18:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)SB

This issue has already been discussed, please read the discussion, above. --JWSchmidt 23:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I have read it. I even participated in it. There was no discussion. There was Anon telling other people they were wrong, and there were other people telling Anon that he was wrong. No actual discussion took place, though Anon did at least make his point clear. But you, Uther, and whoever else simply ignored his point, for which he threw a fit and got tossed. Shame, too, because as bad as his presentation was, he is right.18:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)SB

You are making a persistent attempt to insert factually wrong information into an article. Your error has been discussed repeatedly on this page. The wikipedia article already explains in great detail why you are wrong. Under wikipedia rules, I am supposed to assume that you have good intentions. Making that assumption, I assume your argument is that since some people do not think that humans are apes, you think that wikipedia should ignore the fact that humans are apes and say that human are not apes. As has been pointed out before on this page, such an argument is not the basis upon which wikipedia articles are constructed. To resolve this dispute, I propose that you find some experts on apes who support your position. By expert, I mean someone who has done research on ape cladistics and published peer-reviewed articles on the topic. If you can find some ape experts who say that humans are not apes, then we can continue this discussion. --JWSchmidt 19:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Why not add a parenthetical line about common usage after this line: "the family Hominidae consisting of gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, and humans, collectively known as the 'great apes'." I think the common usage point is well-taken and could be acknowledged without compromising the accuracy of the article. An example of how common this is comes from the Living Links project directed by Frans de Waal, a scientist who clearly knows that humans are apes: “Apes may have retained traits in our common ancestor that we find hard to recognize in ourselves, or that we are not used to contemplating in an evolutionary light.” The distinction in casual usage is very common and should, I think, be noted. This is in no way saying the distinction should be made throughout the article.

The distinction is there, just down in the next section, "Historical and modern terminology". - UtherSRG (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Right, sorry, got it, missed it. Thanks.

[edit] Ok, humans are apes.

Then bees and ants are wasps? From the Wikipedia: "A wasp is any insect of the order Hymenoptera and suborder Apocrita that is not a bee, sawfly, or an ant." Why can't apes be members of Hominoidea that are not humans? I have read the Ape discussion. Why can't apes be defined in the Wikipedia in a "normal" (common usage) way, like other animals?

El PaleoFreak

Wikipedia isn't defining apes to include humans. Wikipedia is following the science, and the science says that humans are apes. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the point of that statement is? Wikipedia follows facts, not common usage. Most people believe humans aren't animals at all, that doesn't mean it's true. Lengis 05:25, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, it may be true many people in a number of countries don't believe humans are animals but I hope that's not true of most people. Not all nations are having the same trouble with religious doctrine attemptng to subvert science. Yet.

Science doesn't say humans are apes; Sciece "says" humans are hominids, hominoids, anthropoids, primates, etc. "Ape" is not a scientific, taxonomic term but a common term. What about muy example about hymenopterans? Isn't it a fact that ants are wasps? PaleoFreak 02:10, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

talk to an anthropologist. Humans are definetely considered apes (Hank Wesselman said this in a lecture to one of his anthropolgy classes today in fact). The Ungovernable Force 07:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Some anthropologists reckons that we are apes; some not. And it's their opinion, not 'The Science'. Paleofreak 14:20, 18 march 2006 (UTC).

I've never met a modern anthropologist who didn't consider us apes. The Ungovernable Force 06:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Again: that's the opinion of the anthropologists you've met, and not "The Science". PaleoFreak 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the new species

[quoteblock]"Subsequent molecular investigation of hair and pelt samples showed them to be common chimps who had individually adapted to local conditions."[/quoteblock]

So this indicates that they are actually a subspecies (aka race) of chimp. As per the definition of a subspecies, they are physically different due to geographical location, but are able to reproduce with other members of their species and produce fertile offspring in the form of a crossbreed. I changed the name of the section to reflect this. Lengis 05:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

They may be a subspecies, or they may not be. It's not for us to declare them as such, that's a job for the scientists in the field. It's up to us to simply report the known information and such. I've modified your edit to keep us from crossing that line. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bonobo

Isn't the Bonobo the closest ape to the human, anatomically speaking? http://www.blockbonobofoundation.org/

A better Bonobo link is http://www.bonobo.org/whatisabonobo.html

Why aren't bonobos listed in the article? Old Nick 15:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Bonobo is a species of chimpanzee. The other species of chimp is the Common Chimpanzee. The article talks about the various apes on a level above species, so the Bonobo is not directly mentioned, nor is there any need to directly mention it; the mention of chimpanzees covers the Bonobo and the Common Chimpanzee equally. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Are dogs wolves? Afe birds dinosaurs?

Yes, and yes. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about birds and dinos, but dogs are a subspecies of wolf. The Ungovernable Force 07:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Dogs aren't wolves; 'Wolves' is not a valid taxon name. Birds do are dinosaurs, because they belongs to the clade Dinosauria (which means, literally, dinosaurs. Humans and apes are Hominoidea (which means something like 'humanoids') Paleofreak 14:20, 18 march 2006 (UTC).

[edit] UtherSRG keeps being a fool and removing my edits

User:UtherSRG keeps on being an idiot and removing my edits. User:UtherSRG is does not own this page and so shouldn't revert whenever someone makes an addition to the article. Doing so is plain stupidity. 64.192.107.242 19:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Make edits that make sense, and the edits will stay. As it is, you are blindly removing changes other than the ones you inted to make. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

And please see WP:NPA. The Ungovernable Force 19:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR Violation

How do we block 64.192.107.242 for 3RR? The Ungovernable Force 20:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, admins do that, but only after deciding where 123.456.789.012 comes from (WP:AN). You can't block "A user" without blocking their proxy, which may block other (legitimate) contributors (far as I understand it). I think as important as blocking on the Wiki is watching the pages. You're watching this one...keep doing so, so that some ridiculous point doesn't get inserted without anybody noticing. Marskell 23:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history section

Nice work, Gdr! The data you added is nifty! However, I'm not really a fan of {{cquote}}. Can we fix that up? - UtherSRG (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like it, change it! Gdr 17:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is getting absurd

I was looking to see how many chromosomes various species of primates have. If you read the page on chromosomes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome#Number_of_chromosomes_in_different_species you see that it says there humans have 46 chromosomes while apes have 48. I clicked on the hyperlink to Ape to see which species they mean when they say ape, and I find this page telling me humans are counted as apes. This is internally inconsistent. You need to reconcile this page and the page on chromosomes, and looking at this page, it seems like most people agree that apes and humans are two different things. I'm not a fundamentalist opposed to evolution. Quite the contrary, I knew that humans and chimps had different numbers of chromosomes, and I was hoping to compare the number of chromosomes in closely related species to see if the difference was a reduction in the number of chromosomes in the evolution of humans or an increase in the number of chromosomes in the evolution of the ape. So why are people trying to force an agenda by calling humans a type of ape? This seems to serve no purpose whatsoever, apart from trying to antagonize the opponents of evolution. Fundamentally, this is not only in violation of NPOV guidelines, but it is unnecessarily confusing. It only makes the terminology ambiguous. We do not need to call humans apes just because the group of humans + apes = a monophyletic grouping. "Ape" does not need to be a cladistic term.

It has since been changed to gorilla. However the terminology was confusing because gibbons which I think are accepted as apes even by the humans are not apes crowd don't have 48 chromosomes and indeed are variable depending on genera. So we would at the very least need to correct it to say great ape. However we might as well say non-human great ape or simply give a specific example like someone else did. Also, the same argument could be made about calling humans animals. Sure it's a lot more convient in some ways to not call humans animals, after all how often do people say someone's an animal (which is intrinsicly true but not in the way that was meant). But we do because it makes much more sense. It also avoids the confusion that a lot of people, especially religious people, but even non religious people have that humans are special (which gives rise to silly things like the claim every ape should evolve to be a human). They're not. Nil Einne 20:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more refutation

-- Humans didn't evolve from apes, no Darwinist ever suggests that. We evolved from a proto-ape many millions of years ago, and the modern apes are a seperate branch of the evolution of that species. -- Hence, we closely related, but not considered in the same group. However, we are Hominidae (Great Apes), and that bracket is wide enough to include homo sapiens as well as the modern apes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.7.74.130 (talk • contribs) .

Actually, humans are more closely related to either of the two chimp species than we are to the two species of gorilla. Chimps are more closely related to us than they are to gorillas. Humans, chimps, and gorillas are all more closely related to each other than any of those three are related to orangutans. Your notion that humans are somehow not within the group of apes is outdated. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The problems with anon above appears to be with a misunderstanding of evolution and with the misleading term proto-apes. The so called proto-apes were apes. Humans and chimpanzee has a common ancestor however this doesn't mean humans evolved from chimpanzee. The ancestor of humans and chimpanzee was neither human or chimpanzee, it was a different ape all together (a proto ape if you want to call it that). I'm not sure whether this holds true for anon but there appears to be this common misconception that non-human apes have stopped evolving which is of course just plain silly. All apes have been evolving including humans and humans haven't necessarily evolved more then other apes, just in a different direction (just as each ape other species also evolved in a different direction). Also, although I use the term direction, it's important to remember evolution is not goal-setting and humans are not the desired outcome (again this often appears to be a problem where people think all apes or all animals 'want' to be humans) Nil Einne 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ape Art

I'm having a debate on a philosophy forum about the ability for apes to create art. I'm maintaining that apes neither have the biological or cultural equipment to deliberately produce abstract or figurative images, but with all these ridiculous "Gorrilla Art" websites selling "portraits" by Gorrillas for over $300, not everyone believes me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.7.74.130 (talk • contribs) .

Is there any decisive proof? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.7.74.130 (talk • contribs) .

Art is in the eye of the beholder. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

But surely there's no way they are actually deliberately creating symbollic images. That's too advanced an cognitive capability.

The first step is to get everyone to state their definition of art. If art must be symbolic, then it's a matter of deciding if the object created is symbolic. If art is defined as an object purposefully created for visual/tactile pleasure (a rather broad definition), then it becomes more likely that "gorilla art" is actually art. I've seen this type of debate before in the context of the question "Are video games art?" Just remember that the problem is usually one of communication. Good luck. Ladlergo 15:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

But they aren't deliberately creating art. That's impossible.

Why is it impossible. Just because you don't understand how it is possible, doesn't mean it isn't. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humans are not apes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm so sick and tired of people on wikipedia redefining words. True DNA says that chimps are closer to humans than they are to other apes, so now we have to redefine ape to include humans. Why not just redefine humans to include chimps, it would make just as much sense, and than we could describe ourselves as non-chimp humans. Ape is a physical category not a genetic category. If you want a term that describes the broader group that only humans and apes belong to, then find or create such a word. That's how language progresses. But redefining words that have existing meanings does nothing but create confusion and destroys the English language.--Zalgebra 03:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read the article. It explains why objective cladistic analysis supports the practice of calling humans "apes". The meanings of words change all the time without language being destroyed. --JWSchmidt 05:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the decision to exclude humans from the ape family was arbitrary, and that it makes more scientific sense to include them, but neologisms like "non-human ape" are not the solution. That will confuse the living hell out of anyone who reads a biology book written before the neoligism was created. Instead just accept the fact that apes are an arbitrary classification that has been debunked by modern genetics and find a new term that unifies both humans and apes into a single category. As we see on the monkey article, it's hard enough for people to agree when multiple definitions of one word actually exist. Making up own definitions makes consensus impossible --Zalgebra 05:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

• The situation is not really all that confusing. I'm not sure it is fair to say that, "to exclude humans from the ape family was arbitrary." It is probably better to say that natural human biases about how to classify humans resulted in classifications that later had to be abandoned after objective cladistic analyses were possible. "Scientific authorities" at one time went around saying that the Sun could not be very old because no chemical fuel source could last very long. Once fusion was discovered, it became clear that the old view was wrong and that a nuclear fuel could last for billions of years. I do not accept the argument that we are creating problems by recognizing in this Wikipedia article that it makes sense to think of humans as apes and that we can start using terms such as "non-human ape". The "problem" was past errors in thinking otherwise. When new information becomes available we change our thinking, change our way of talking about the subject and we move on. Really, it is not that hard to do. --JWSchmidt 21:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to cut back wordiness

Changing "Most non-human ape species are rare or endangered" to "Most ape species are rare or endangered" seems a reasonable stylistic change to me. Consider the following sentences:

Most bears are brown or black in color.

Most non-polar bears are brown or black in color.

Most continents are inhabited by frogs.

Most non-antarctic continents are inhabited by frogs.

In each case, the second is unnecessarily wordy. I'm not sure why the change was reverted, due to lack of an edit summary (and marked minor?). --Yath 00:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The "non-human" bit was only added the other day; I've removed it again. --Emufarmers^(T/C) 04:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Specifying "non-human ape" is not a matter of "style", using the phrase is not "wordy"; it is a reasonable way to distinguish between non-human ape species and humans. The "non-human bit" has been used in this article for many months. --JWSchmidt 05:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you're right: It has indeed been in there for a while. It seems to have been variously taken out and re-added, however. At any rate, it is unnecessary: "Most ape species are rare or endangered" is just as accurate as "Most non-ape species are rare or endangered," because it already says "most," and it's "most ape species," not "most apes." Humans may vastly outnumber all the other apes on this earth, but we're only one species. --Emufarmers^(T/C) 05:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

JWSchmidt, this has nothing to do with the dispute over whether Humans are apes. It's about brilliant prose. --Yath 06:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yath is correct. I get a bit rigid with folks who make edits to try to say that humans aren't apes. In this case, the edit doesn't do that, the meaning is unchanged, and reads better. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References in 'Cultural aspects of non-human apes'

I wish we could find references for the section documenting various religious folklore interpretations of apes and their similarities to humans. I can imagine it'd be difficult to find references for folklore, but I think some citations would be valuable. Also, wouldn't it make since to split up human cultural interpretations of non-human apes and the section on non-human ape culture? -Brandon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.234.198.197 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Humans, Apes or not? can finally be put to rest

I've taken the liberty of creating a section on whether humans are apes or not (geez, that debate was on for years and no one thought of this). Let's just keep it neutral. No one can say that humans are apes, and no one can say that humans are not apes. However, you can add information supporting one side, as long as it's true! Hopefully, this will end all the fits over the human ape debate. 84.173.30.96 01:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Humans are apes. It's been put to rest. Stop trying to dig up trouble. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It is still debated, so don't be so head strong. if you want to support one side then fine. But remember that it's still debated, and it was not put to rest, as you notice continuous comments, and you can't ever, ever, prove that humans can be called apes. It's merely a term. A term does not have DNA. If you consider humans to be apes, fine, but please don't force your unprovable opinions on others. 84.173.30.96 01:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Show me some legitimate scientists who are debating the issue and I'll agree.... but given all the primatology work I've read, scientists are not debating this. They are firm that humans are apes. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Scientists are not debating the issue, because they're ignorant of the actual meaning of "ape". "Ape" cannot refer to humans, any more than "wasp" can refer to ants or "Caucasian" can refer to Japanese people. Wii gok 18:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

"Scientists...are ignorant". Oh, this is rich. Joelito (talk) 18:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Referring to humans as "apes", is like referring to ants as "wasps", or Japanese people as "Caucasians". It's simply incorrect. Wii gok 20:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Scientists are the ones who determine what the terms "ape" and "human" mean (from a scientific perspective), therefore if scientists say humans are apes, then that is what we are taxinomically. If you are going to argue we are not apes, don't try to do it from a (quasi) scientific perspective. You have a whole lot more of a chance from a non-scientific perspective. But since wikipedia tends to be biased (rightly or wrongly) towards an academic (and in this case, scientific) world view, I doubt that would work too well either. As far as I know, there isn't any debate in the scientific community as to our classification as apes, and any one who does debate it would surely be in an extreme minority position (and therefore not really important to us). Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

All of the members of the superfamily Hominoidea are apes. The human species is a member of the Hominoidea superfamily. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, humans are apes, in the sense that on all the evidence (palaeontological, genetic, morphological, etc) we are more closely related to two of the species of ape (chimpanzee and bonobo) than they or we are to the remaining apes (gorilla, orangutan, gibbons); we therefore fit within the group, and without us it does not make sense as a group. Now, of course there are other cases of such situations where we would not put one group inside another; for example, birds may well be more closely related to some reptiles than remaining reptiles are to one another. However in such cases (a) the distinct group contains many species (in the case of birds, thousands) not just one; and (b) there has been a long period of separation (in the case of birds, perhaps 200 million). Whereas in the case of humans' separation from the rest of the apes, we are talking about a single species, and the time of separation is about 5 million years, a twinkling of the eye in evolutionary terms. I can't think of any remotely similar case where we would say that a species with such a relationship to a group was not a member of that group. seglea 05:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahhhhhhhhh, but where are the documents that show proof that scientists consider humans apes? I don't see any. And most science based websites don't include humans as apes. Please also be aware that it was the SCIENTISTS to say humans are apes, AND you forget the fact that a minority of scientists disagree. Scientists can say anything they want and people are forced to believe it. Also, seglea, you should note the fact that EVERY OTHER non-human PRIMATE has diferent qualities than humans, which should seperate humans from apes. 1. hair doesn't cover our bodies everywhere (or do you have hair everywhere?), 2. Humans can stand upright, unless they have a disability, 3. Uhhh, we're not ugly retards that knuckle walk (at least I'm not), 4. Shorter arms and longer legs, 5. apes have feet with thumbs, making them look similar to hands (do you have any?), and 6. S-curved spine (or is yours a simple c curve?)

So bear with me. Let's just show both sides, stating that what scientists claim, and leave it at a neutral POV. 84.173.17.84 17:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen a scientist that debates humans are apes. I'm an anthropology major, and every anthro teacher I've had says humans are apes (that would be a total of 4). So have my textbooks. There may be a few scientists who debate it, but wikipedia policy is that extreme minority positions (and I'm sure that would be one) don't have any place on wikipedia. Unless you can show with reliable sources that a significant number of scientists disagree that we are apes, then the issue is pretty much over from a scientific stand point. As for your specific examples, 1) we do have hair all over our bodies, most of it is sparse, short and usually light-colored (why do you think women shave their legs? For the fun of it?). 2) All apes have a tendency towards upright posture and most (and I think all, but can't remember for sure) are capable of limited bipedalism. That is what seperates us from other apes--we are predominantly bipedal. 3) I can't judge whether you're ugly or not, I can't see you. Also, it's true that we don't knuckle walk. Neither do gibbons or siamangs, but they're still apes. Besides, we've already established that we have a different form of locomotion than other apes. 4) That's due to the difference in locomotor patterns, which is already discussed. And guess what, chimps and gorillas have shorter arm-to-leg ratios than gibbons and siamangs because they don't brachiate as much. And we brachiate less than chimps and gorillas, so ours our even shorter. 5) Also due to locomotor patterns. You're basically just repeating yourself on all these last ones. You have only identified two real differences--hair and movement. All the others relate directly to the different ways of moving. We are the only (relatively) "hairless" bipedal apes, but we're still apes. Just because there is variation between us and some of the other apes does not mean we aren't apes. We still fit the basic description. If anything are an exagerated caricature of the other apes, since we take many of the tendencies they have (increased intelligence, upright posture, less facial prognathism etc) and take them to an extreme. It's like when a cartoonist draws extra big ears on Bush--he doesn't really have ears that big, but he does have larger ears than most. We're like a cartoon of the other apes--they're not as intelligent or as upright, but they do have those a tendency for those things, and the farther you go evolutionarily, the more they are exhibited, until you get to us and get a really exagerated form of ape. Interesting side note, one of my anthro professors made the interesting observation that the grey aliens seem to be even more exagerated in some of those ape tendencies (absolutely no hair, even more slender and upright, super-intelligent with really huge heads). Not to say they are apes too (or even real), it was just interesting to notice. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

UtherSRG, that citation you put in does NOT say humans are apes. Put in something that does instead of confusing people. 213.103.238.165 20:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

READ THIS! Okay, I know for a fact that recent textbooks (from this decade) do not say humans are apes. We are primates, I acknowledge that, HOWEVER, the books say humans aren't apes. SECOND: I've never heard Hominid be dubbed Great Ape. I'll talk later maybe tomorrow since I must leave for the barber. 84.173.10.62 15:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's start with something simple... "where are the documents that show proof that scientists consider humans apes?". Here are just a few, going from the trivial to the biblometric:

• (i) I, personally (user:seglea), am a scientist (BSc, PhD, over 100 publications in scientific journals); I consider that humans are apes. This is a document.
• (ii) Jared Diamond, who is also a scientist, entitles one of his books "The third chimpanzee". It's about humans. Clearly he considers that humans are not only apes, but that we are chimpanzees (a defensible position since humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos form a clade, and bonobos are often referred to as "pygmy chimpanzees".
• (iii) I used Web of Knowledge, which records essentially all scientific literature, and did a topic search for "hominidae" and "great ape". The 2nd and 3rd articles I turned up contained the following quotes in their abstracts:
  • "...the great ape/human clade (Hominidae)" (Sola & Kohler, 1993, Nature, 365, 543-545
  • "Miocene hominoids from Europe are among the earliest members of the great ape and human clade (the Hominidae)" (Begun, 1992, Science, 257, 1929-1933.

These two articles are in the two most prestigious scientific learned journals in the world, the ones where every scientist wants to publish.

• (iv) One of the earliest results of molecular systematics was confirmation of the pattern of descent within the great apes that had been hypothesised on morphological grounds. Bailey et al, 1991 (Molecular Biology and Evolution, 8, 155-184), showed that genomic analysis, "supports the taxonomic grouping of all extant hominoids into family Hominidae, the division of Hominidae into subfamilies Hylobatinae (gibbons) and Homininae, the division of Homininae into tribes Pongini (orangutans) and Hominini, and the division of Hominini into subtribes Gorillina (gorillas) and Hominina (chimpanzees and humans)". This paper has been referred to (cited) over 100 times in the scientific literature since it was published. I have just looked at the titles and abstracts of a good sample of the papers that cite it and cannot find a single one that challenges its conclusion; indeed Wildman et al, 2003 (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 100, 7181-7188), go further and argue that the chimpanzee and bonobo should be included in genus Homo.

To say "humans are not apes" is on a par with saying "humans are not animals". There is a sense - a nursery sense - in which we use "animals" to mean "non-human animals". Similarly there is a sense in which we could use "apes" to mean "non-human apes". Perhaps some people do use it that way. But nowadays scientists, by and large, don't. seglea 20:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

¿¿To say "humans are not apes" is on a par with saying "humans are not animals"?? OK. Then, to say "ants are not wasps" is on par with saying "ants are not animals". El PaleoFreak 21:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Do a simple search of scientific publications with the keywords "apes" and "humans" (Use scholar.google.com, for example). You'll find tons of papers in which humans are not considered "apes", and they are strictly and rigorously using the phylogenetic taxonomy. It's not "The Science" who consider that we are apes; it's some scientists and some wikipedists. El PaleoFreak 21:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

An exercise. Identify the clade that corresponds to apes. Check to see if humans are in that clade. Hint, use the cladograms in the Ape article. If you still do not think that humans are apes, find a published cladogram that supports a different way to classify humans by placing humans outside of the ape clade. --JWSchmidt 03:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There's not a clade that corresponds to apes. That's the BIG ERROR. Not all words we use when talking about animals can be assigned to a clade. There is a clade that corresponds to humans and apes: Hominoidea. "Ape" is not a taxonomic term. The taxonomic term is Hominoidea, which means something like "humanoids". Human are not apes; apes (and us) are "humanoids". El PaleoFreak 23:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Then why do scientists such as Todd Rae say things like, "...the superfamily Hominoidea, or apes (including humans)"? --JWSchmidt 04:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Ask him about his particular motivations :-) Other scientists simply say: "...the superfamily Hominoidea: apes and humans" El PaleoFreak 18:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Likewise, one can ask yours. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, but JWSchmidt seemed interested in Todd Rae, not in me. I don't know why some scientists and some wikipedists are pretending to change the meaning of the word "ape". It's the promoters of that change who should explain themselves. I've talked with some of them, and they told me that calling humans "apes" can be good at fighting creationism, and also can be good for the public understanding of evolution (I've tested this with some people and the results weren't very good: they got more confused). They agreed with me that it's a proposal, not a fact. This is what's wrong with this article: the "humans are apes" is a proposal, or a trend, of some scientists, and not a Fact of The Science.--El PaleoFreak 10:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Then why do primatologists say chimps should stay out of Hominidae? For God's sake, it was in a citation! And who gives a damn about Todd Rae, that's only one person, and you should really show other scientists who say humans are apes. Or wait. Jimbo Wales runs wikipedia, why not let him decide? Or even better, LEAVE IT FROM A NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW!!! GIVE BOTH SIDES IF YOU'RE SO STUBBORN!!! OR MAYBE I DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE THIS PAGE, SINCE IT'S RUN BY USERS LIKE YOU AND UtherSRG and seglea WHO ARE APES AND NOW WANT HUMANS TRO BE APES.84.173.26.156 15:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake. Do not use this page as a discussion forum. See talk page guidelines.

Also please refrain from personal attacks. Joelito (talk) 15:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyone have the OED definition of the word ape? JPotter 19:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The OED will not give the best scientific answer. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Humans are a subdivision of apes, much like the Ford Pinto is a Ford Pinto and a car, or like Worf is a Klingon and an extraterrestial. Saying they are not leaves not only the question of what category do they fit in, but also violates laws of categorization. To give a final example, Chuck Norris is a TV actor, and a thespian. TV actors are a subdivision of thespians, much like humans are a subdivision of a species of a genus of a family of an order that leads up to Kevin Ba.. sorry, apes.

Lord Patrick 21:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed solution to the debate

This is a long and unresolved debate. How about a simple disclaimer line at the top in italics explaining clearly what the article takes to mean 'ape'.

This article is about the biological superfamily. For a discussion of the inclusion of humans as apes see the cultural section below. For the acronym see APE.

There is not a superfamily named "apes". That's the big error here. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 10:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This clearly outlines where the article stands on the issue. I can understand the arguments raised above by some of the less scientifically minded readers, though let's be honest - there isn't a lot to write about for the generic term 'ape' if we aren't going to deal with it biologically. This disclaimer should be a fair compromise to all parties involved. Richard001 08:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I like it. Joelito (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A question to those who don't accept that humans are apes.

If they aren't apes, what are they? Reptiles, plants, birds, fungi, extradimensional beings? Saying that humans aren't apes is like saying that sparrows aren't birds, or that Muslims are an ethnic group. Its categorically and logically absurd. Lord Patrick 17:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's absurd and appreciate the sentiment but you might be confusing things here. I think even most people who believe humans aren't apes still accept that they are mammals. My point is, there might be better examples or ways to explain this Nil Einne 18:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake. I thought, based on my reading, that it was a debate between those who acknowledge evolution and creationists, who generally categorize humans as seperate from animals for some bizarre reason.

VERY BAD reading :-( El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 10:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Lord Patrick 19:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"If they aren't apes, what are they?" We are mammals, primates, anthropoids, hominoids, humans. What's the problem with this? "Saying that humans aren't apes is like saying that sparrows aren't birds" - No; it's like saying that ants aren't wasps (see above). Sparrows are birds, of course, but humans aren't apes. "Its categorically and logically absurd" - You haven't shown why. And read our arguments, please. All pro-humans_are_apes arguments have been refuted, with the sole exception of the "Science says it" one, which is hardly refutable ;-). El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 10:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is the full scientific, taxonomical description of humans; Eukaryota Animalia Eumetazoa Bilateria Deuterostomia Chordate Craniata Vertebrata Gnathostomata Teleostomi Tetrapoda Amniota Synapsida Mammalia Eutheria Euarchontoglires Euarchonta Primates Haplorrhini Simiiformes Catarrhini Hominoidea (Apes) Hominidae Homininae Hominini Hominina Homo Homo sapiens Homo sapiens sapiens So, is the Ford Pinto not a car, despite being in that category? Is Worf not a non human, despite being in that category? Is Earth not a planetary body, despite being in that category? If something is in subdivision A of category B, then quite logically that something is in category B. Its simple common sense. Lord Patrick 02:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh! Again.... The correct taxon is Hominoidea, not Hominoidea (Apes). We agree about taxonomy, but disagree about what you've add in that parenthesis. What if I write "Here is a scientific taxonomical description of humans: Mammalia, Eutheria, Euarchontoglires, Euarchonta, Primates (lemurs)"? Or This one: "Hominidae, Homininae, Hominini (chimps)"? Or "Hominidae, Homininae, Hominini, Hominina (australopithecines)". What's your opinion about these scientific and taxonomical descriptions? El PaleoFreak 213.60.21.111 20:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hominoidea IS the ape family, much like Plantalia is the plant family. And much as William Shatner is a TV actor and a thespian, humans are hominids and apes. Hominidae is a family under apes, and homindae includes a chain leading directly to humans. Humans are Eukaryota, Animalia,Eumetazoa, Bilateria, Deuterostomia, Chordate,Craniata, Vertebrata, Gnathostomata,Teleostomi, Tetrapoda, Amniota, Synapsida, Mammalia,Eutheria, Euarchontoglires,Euarchonta, Primates, Haplorrhini,Simiiformes, Catarrhini, Hominoidea,Hominidae,Homininae, Hominini, Hominina, Homo, Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens. They are all of those things above. Give me ONE peer reviewed journal doubting humansa are apes. Lord Patrick 20:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hominoidea is the ape family and the human family, much like the Hymenoptera clade is the wasp clade and the ants and bees clade :o) There are lots of papers where humans are not considered apes. The expression "humans and apes" is very common in today science. Asian Elephants [have been discovered http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0608062103v1] to recognize themselves at the mirror. The abstract says: Considered an indicator of self-awareness, mirror self-recognition (MSR) has long seemed limited to humans and apes and: Apart from humans and apes, dolphins and elephants are also known for such capacities. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 09:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of these articles are edited and retouched for public consumption. Humans and apes is a term much like the similar term humans and animals. Although they are the same thing, they are not referred to due to public unfamiliarity with humans being called apes or animals. Its hyperbole for familiarities sake. For another example, on the General Grievous page, it refers to him by his best known name, and not by his real name, Qymaen Jai Sheelal. However, it explains early on his real name in the article itself. Humans are one of the great apes, not seperate from other apes. There is no logical reason, other than anthropocentrist delusions of grandeur or religious fundamentalism to not accept that humans are apes. Lord Patrick 01:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's easy to see biases and stupid "-isms" in the others' heads instead of discussing their arguments, isn't it? I know how to play: I could say you are illogical "apecentric" people, or platonic idealists, or even anti-evolution fixists, unable to accept the fact of evolutionary transformation and divergence. But that's not a fair way of discussing. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 20:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. What about the fact that the only major difference between humans and other apes is size, fur, bipedality, and sapience. Wasps are highly different, socially and anatomically, from bees. Both humans and chimpanzees, orangutans, lemurs, bonobos etc are group animals, that collaborate in structured hierachy based societies that are often gender segregated. Both are omnivorous, and capable of organized warfare between groups. Both have two five fingered hands and two five toed feet. Humans are apes. Why is it so hard for you to accept this? Lord Patrick 01:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

¿"Size, fur, bipedality, and sapience"? I count four differences, not "one major difference" :-) (I'd remove "size" and add some other things instead). The number and the importance of the differences between humans and apes (or between wasps and bees and ants) would bring us hours of interesting discussions. The fact is, the term "ape" doesn't include "human" except for *some* scientists and *some* people, and they have failed at giving us a good rational or scientific supporting argument. Why is it so hard for me to accept your claims? Because you continue repeating it dogmatically: "humans are apes. Humans are apes. Humans are apes. You have to accept this. You have to accept this". That's not convincing, sorry. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 16:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that it's some scientists? I would say it's the vasy majority, or at least the vast majority that count (physicists, chemists etc don't count any more then the opinion of biologists about whether the theory big bang is likely to be true or false). Note just because scientists may no bother to make the distinction between apes and non-human apes in some instances doesn't mean they don't believe humans are apes Nil Einne 05:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If I say "some scientists" and you say "the vast majority", I think you should first bring evidence for your claim, because it is more radical. I repeat: you can easily do a search and find lots of recent scientific papers where humans aren't considered apes. You only have to read titles and abstracts. El PaleoFreak.--213.60.21.111 11:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the points I was making. I was simply giving my point of view which is that it's the vast majority of scientists. I am not asking you to believe me but I am saying if you want me (or anyone else) to believe you you'll need some evidence to convince me. As a biologist myself, I find it hard to believe that it isn't the vast majority but again, I'm not trying to prove this to anyone. I'm simply expressing a POV which is contrary to what you have stated (and you were the first person to try and quantify how many scientists believe humans are apes). My second point which you also appeared to have missed is that there is a big difference between a scientist failing to distinguish between non-human apes and apes in a paper (or whatever) and a scientist who believes humans are not apes. The only way you can know whether or not a scientist believes humans are not apes is by asking them. Finally IMHO you suggestion is more radical. Since there is no strong evidence either way, whichever suggestion is more radical is irrelevant. However as the first person to make the claim and as the person who is trying to convince others to believe you, it is up to you to provide evidence Nil Einne 13:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't offer any evidence to convince me, you are simply giving your point of view, but I should, on the contrary, give evidence to convince you. That's superiority! ;-) A person wrote (see above) that "Science" says humans are apes. That was the claim I'm replying. Evidence should be given to prove THAT claim. I'm not triying to "quantify" anything. I can find a lot of actual science examples where humans are not considered apes (I think what scientists "believe" is not relevant: "The Science" is not about polls; it's about scientific publications). I can also find examples of the other side. I don't know what percentage of "The Science" states that humans are apes, but I have provide a way to see there's not agreement or consensus at the scientific community on this particular issue. And this is a "jargon" issue, not a philogeny or taxonomy issue. In other words, it's not a very "scientific" issue. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 19:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with superiority. It has to do with the fact you are trying to convince me of your POV. I am not trying to convince you of my POV. I simply mentioned what I believe to illustrate why I don't believe you. If you can't offer any evidence for what you believe, then there is no reason for me to believe you. I do have reasons for what I believe, specifically because of my experiences and interactions. As I've mentioned I am a biologist. Therefore, it would take good evidence for you to convince me otherwise. Again, I'm not trying to convince you of my believe, so whether or not you believe me is irrelevant and this has nothing to do with 'superiority'. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the original statement. Whether or not the statement you were replying to has any evidence is irrelevant (as I'm not debating that issue here). You made a statement and I'm challenging you to prove it. If you are unable to prove it, or offer any evidence then just say so. Nil Einne 15:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, you don't seem to understand the issue at all. You stated that 'some scientists' believe something. This is a believe and has nothing directly to do with science. Scientists believe all sort of things and the only way you can know what they believe is by asking them. I hate to repeat myself but as I've said time and time again, THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SCIENTIST FAILING TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN NON-HUMAN APES AND APES AND A SCIENTIST WHO BELIEVS HUMANS ARE NOT APES. Sorry for the bold caps but since I've said this 3 times, drastic measures were called for. So far, all you've tolds us is that scientists sometimes fail to differentiate between non-human apes and apes. This doesn't prove scientists don't believe humans are apes or that the paper was intended to claim humans are not apes. Unless you can quote a specific statement in a paper where it was said "humans are not apes" then your evidence is meaningless. Nil Einne 15:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: someone claimed "Wikipedia is following the science, and the science says that humans are apes". He didn't provide any evidence for that claim. I know (and you know, and we can prove easily) that some scientists believe humans are apes. That's not "my belief"; it's a fact that some scientists believe that humans are apes. "Science" saying humans are apes, is NOT a fact; it's an unproved claim, it's someone's belief. I'm not "believing" things here; I'm been skeptic about others beliefs and claims. It's you who seem to not understand the issue at all. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 11:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I am not arguing about the original sentence. As I stated above, it's completely irrelevant. You seem to believe it is only a small proportion of scientists who believe humans are apes. I believe it is the vast majority. Neither of use are offering any evidence of our claims. I asked you to provide evidence but you are unwilling or unable. If you don't want to, you should have just said so in the first place rather then getting into a heated argument over nothing. This was and is the main issue that I'm discussing here. I think I've made that clear from the start but you appear to have misunderstood me either on purpose or by accident. The second issue I will discuss below Nil Einne 11:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't believe it is only a small proportion of scientists who believe humans are apes. I believe it is a proportion; some proportion :o). I don't know what is the percentage, and I'm not discussing percentages of "belief" among scientists. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 01:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If it walks like a duck, if it looks like a duck, if it sounds like a duck... its a duck. Not a nonduck. Explain to me the differences between humans and other apes. Lord Patrick 05:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

But humans don't walk like an ape (we are bipedal), nor look like an ape (erect body without fur, often clothed), nor sound like an ape (we speak... and sing!). Poor arguments :o/. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 11:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you've made your point, Lord Patrick. There's no need to keep repeating the same argument - remember that this is a discussion page and not a forum. It's both fully clear that there are vast differences between humans and other apes, and that humans are biologically apes. The issue has been resolved as far as the article goes, and any further discussion here is little more than turning Wikipedia into a soap box. Let's keep the discussion constructive and related to improving the article, or take it to a more appropriate forum elsewhere. Richard001 07:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely not "fully clear", in this article or other articles, that we are "biologically apes" . What does "biologically" means? Are ants biologically wasps? Thanks in advance. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 11:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This argument will continue for all eternity unless the Wikipedia article "ape" is corrected in not saying that humans are apes. We are mammals, primates, anthropoids, hominoids, humans but not "apes" or "animals". The other hominoids are also apes and animals, but not humans. You all are failing to see that evolution creates divergence. Humans are extremely different from the other members of the Hominoidea superfamily. Voortle 18:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

We're not animals??? What are we then? Plants? - UtherSRG (talk) 18:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

People. Voortle 18:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Right, carbon-based, semi-liquid life forms to you, but still animals. CMacMillan 18:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Right, and where do people fall in the tree of life? What taxonomic Kingdom are we in? - UtherSRG (talk) 18:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

We're in the Kingdom Metazoa, which includes humans and animals. Voortle 18:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Try again. Look furhter up in this discussion for the full list. We're in Animalia, along with all the other primates, along with all the other mammals, along with all the other vertebrates. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

We're in the Animalia, or Metazoa (same thing) but we're not animals. "Metazoa" and "Hominoidea" do not imply that all of the organisms in these categories are animals and apes any more than the "Hominini" implies that all the organisms in that category are chimps. Topses 02:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought this thread was a joke. Are you seriously arguing that humans are not animals in the real sense, rather than the connotational sense? (Although that can sometimes apply.) Wow, how arrogant. I don't know if you're religious, but I'd watch that pride. CMacMillan 02:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"Humans and animals"? Last time I checked, humans weren't exempt from laws of taxonomy. Give me even one reason why humans shouldn't be considered animals, that DOESN'T cite any religious text.

Because that's not how the word "animal" is used in general conversation. We should describe "human" and "ape" by the way the words are actually used, not the way that scientists think they should be used. Say "humans are animals" or that "humans are apes" is like saying that the Japanese are Caucasions, it's simply wrong by definition. Voortle 03:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Lord Patrick 07:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are we extremely different from other members of the Hominoidea superfamily? You're right that evolution creates divergence, but human and chimpanzees are less diverged from each other then chimpanzees (and humans) are from gorillas (as we have discussed oh so many times) Nil Einne 14:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we are animals. That's well stablished for several centuries. Saying the contrary is not helping. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 19:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Voortle, the Japanese/Caucasian argument has been brought up nearly ten times on this page alone, and has been repeatedly refuted. I coudn't care less what the "common usage" is. I care what scientists say about the matter, since they are more qualified to comment on it than the layman. It's like saying that we should redirect HIV to AIDS.

Lord Patrick 08:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What I don't get is why does the argument always end up being Japanese/Caucasian? Why not Korean/Caucasian or Chinese/Caucasian or whatever? Nil Einne 15:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

ElPaleo-Why are we animals? There is just as much reason to say we're not animals as we're not apes. Neither are scientific terms per se and if we're in your apparent opinion, particularly different from other apes then we're also particularly different from other animals... So why not have humans as distinct from animals and apes? BTW, your argument about paper titles also applies here. If you do a search, you will find A LOT of papers where scientists talk about humans and animals. Of course, the same issue which I keep bringing up applies here. It doesn't in any way show that the writers of said papers are saying that humans are not animals or that they are trying to show humans are not animals in the paper Nil Einne 16:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. The argument "if we are animals, then we are apes" is a fallacy. A similar one can be formulated this way: "If we are animals, then we are lemurs". Or "if apes are animals, then apes are humans". You are right about those papers about humans and animals. I'm a bit surprised :o) What can I say? Humans have been classified as animals (Animalia) since the origins of Taxonomy. This doesn't apply for "apes", a non taxonomic term but a common term that never meant humans. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 11:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, you seem to have completely missed my point (and also came up with a silly argument). I wasn't saying if we are animals, we are apes. I was asking you why you believe we are animals. Animals and apes are not taxomonic terms per se. Animalia is but animals and Animalia ARE NOT the same word. Therefore, the question remains what does the word 'animals' mean? To you, it mean's Animalia. However to Voortle it does not. This is just a valid argument as your argument that apes does not mean Hominoidea. If apes doesn't mean Hominoidea then waht does it mean? To you, it means non-Homo sapiens Hominoidea. Similarly, to Voortle animals means non-Homo sapiens Animalia. In both your views, humans are unique among other Hominoidea. In Voortle's view, humans are unique amongst Animalia. Now obviously you don't have to believe both. However both are equally 'valid' arguments and come from the same basic idea. Nil Einne 11:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Animalia means "animals". Literally. And Vertebrata means "vertebrates". And Dinosauria means "dinosaurs". And Tetrapoda means "tetrapods". We are animals, and birds are dinosaurs. But Hominoidea doesn't mean "apes". Hominoidea means something like "humanoids". I repeat: we were considered animals since the very first origins of Taxonomy. We have never been considered "apes". That's a relatively new claim. El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 00:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no intrinsic reason why animalia must mean animals. Nil Einne 20:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the papers. I was not surprised at all. Indeed it was what I expected. As I've stated, this has nothing to do with said scientists believing or trying to suggest humans are not animals. Indeed if you were to suggest that to the authors of the paper they'd probably think you were an idiot. The reality is the words apes and animals are English words not taxonomic terms. As such, they are often used in certain contexts to mean different things. It's much simpler to talk about humans and animals rather then humans and non-human animals. Similarly, it's easier to talk about humans and apes rather then humans and non-human apes. The meaning is understood and it's usually not a problem. Scientific journals are only really read by scientists and rarely are scientists going to think the title is suggesting humans are not apes or humans are not animals. Nil Einne 11:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the meanings of the word "animals" is a taxonomic meaning, identical to the term Animalia. Some common words for living beings have exact equivalents in Taxonomy. Some not. El PaleoFreak--213.60.21.111 00:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Agaim, you have failed to provide an explain as to why that has to be so. Animals could mean animalia, it could not mean animalia. Both are English words. Similarly ape could mean hominoidea, it could mean something else. This of course has nothing to do with the specific point I was making here. The specific point I was making is that scientists use the word animals to exclude humans in some contexts and they also use the word apes to exclude humans in some contexts. Neither means the scientists believes humans aren't animals. Nil Einne 20:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence that there are still a resonable number of scientists who dispute that humans are apes

ElPaleo (and possibly others), you seem to be convinced that there are still a resonable number of scientist who dispute humans are apes. I'm asking for evidence for this. If you don't want to provide such evidence, that's up to you. Please don't get sidetracked here or bring up other issues. These are not issues I want to discuss here. If you want to discuss them, do so in a seperate topic. I am simply asking for evidence. If you don't have any or don't want to provide it, just say so.

I will repeat the statement I've made. Evidence that scientists sometimes fail to differentiate between non-human apes and apes is not evidence scientists don't believe humans are apes

Nil Einne 11:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think evidence must be provided for the claim "science says humans are apes". I know there are scientists that believe humans are apes (and scientists that don't). But the scientists' beliefs is not "the science". Science is not about beliefs nor about polls. I'd prefer scientific and rational arguments, not authority arguments or dogmatic statements.

El PaleoFreak --213.60.21.111 01:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to the point I was making. If you wish to discuss this, please do so elsewhere. If you have no response to what I was saying, just don't respond Nil Einne 20:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English vs. science

I'm seeking some consensus here. It seems to me that one of the reasons we keep getting in to arguments is because an apparent believe by some that scientists are trying to change the English language. I don't believe this is the case. To the vast majority of scientists, in a scientific sense ape means Hominoidea and animal means Animalia. There is no other sensible definition since we are not unique, despite what some people like to believe. However I also think most scientists don't have a problem with the fact that both these are English words and so are used to mean different things in different contexts.

Specifically, ape and animal are used to mean non-human Hominoidea and non-human Animalia. We are human and so there are a lot of reasons why we often want to refer to these groups excluding humans. Especially in titles and the like it's simpler but the meaning is usually understood. Even on wikipedia, we have a list of apes. In the article, we point our humans are apes but excluded, however I don't think anyone is likely to propose the list be renamed to list of non-human apes. These words are also used within context to convey certain meanings. For example, if you say "person A is an animal in bed" few scientists are going to come out and say "well person A is an animal, duh!" (and when they do, it would usually be in an attempt to be funny). Or if you say "person B is behaving like an ape" few scientist are going to come out and say "well person B is an ape, duh!".

The problem arises when people start saying humans are not animals/apes. To most scientists, this is just plain silly since as I've stated, there is no scientific reason to say were not. These ideas smack of misguided superiority notions and/or religious fundamentalism opposed to key scientific concepts such as evolution. When it comes to wikipedia, we are an encyclopaedia not a dictionary. While there are probably merits to point out the words ape and animal are used to mean Hominoidea and Animalia excluding humans in a dictionary, there is no reason to do so in an encylopaedia.

I don't think this is going to settle ElPaleo or Voortle concerns but does this help to address the concerns of others who keep wanting us to say humans are not apes

<<There is no other sensible definition since we are not unique>>

Nil Einne 12:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

When people (and scientists) start saying ants are not wasps, is it plain silly? Are these ideas smack of misguided superiority (ant-centric) notions and/or religious (ant-theist) fundamentalism? Are they oppossing evolution? Please, stop repeating those "you are anti-evolutionists" fallacies. Thank you.

AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU. WE ARE UNIQUE. UNLIKE THE APES, OUR BODIES DON'T HAVE FUR ALL OVER THEM. YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THIS COMMENT YET, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT SAYING HUMANS ARE NOT AT ALL UNIQUE FROM THE OTHER HOMINOIDS HAS FLAWS IN IT. YOU IGNORE THESE DIFFERENCES SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU NEVER WANT TO ADMIT THAT WE'RE NOT APES. {{subst:unsigned4.235.111.14}}

Please don't shout. ALL CAPS is read as a shout. As for your argument, each species is unique. We are different from the other apes, but each other ape genus is also different from all other ape genera. The reason I say genera instead of species, is that there is only one human species, but there are two gorilla species, and two chimpanzee species, and there are two orangutan species. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I will use your logic to prove dogs aren't canids; Dogs are unique. They are domesticated, have less fur, are very varied in appearance, size, and personality, and are widely considered to be great companions. Therefore, dogs are not canids. I suspect (no ad hominem or viciousness intended) that the reason many are fussed over this issue is because they want to see themselves as superior to "the animals", "the apes", or "the beasts". They want to think themselves so wonderful, so extraordinary, that they think they should not be classed with other creatures. Lord Patrick 00:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it appears to be the case. I had thought my message would help but it doesn't appear to have done so. This whole humans are special because they don't have fur thing is so funny. I mean anyone who has bothered to look carefully at the great apes, would have noticed that chimpanzees look much more like humans then they do any other ape. This isn't surprising. Nil Einne 20:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apes as Food?

I happened to stumble across this article and noticed that there is no section on apes as food. Anyone want to add this? All I know is that ape meat is supposed to be very sweet and difficult to digest. There's a book out on it (called "Eating Apes"... around on Amazon). Apparently the eating of apes is quite common in West and Central Africa. Unfortunately I've never had the chance to taste such a dish myself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.252.48.30 (talk • contribs) .

Bushmeat and Cannibalism should provide all you need on the subject of edible apes. Lord Patrick 01:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The encyclopedia referring to humans as apes is a personal attack

One that should be removed. "ape" never refers to humans. "ape" refers to hominoids that are not human. When someone calls someone a "ape", it's an insult. Saying in the encyclopedia that humans are apes is no less offensive than if the encyclopedia were to say that black people are niggers. Voortle 14:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Nigger is a bigoted and racist term used by people with no scientific qualification to comment on black people. Ape is a biological term used by scientists and biologists to refer more easily to "Hominoidea". When we are using ape in this article, we are using it in the scientific sense, not the derogatory sense. Saying humans aren't apes or humans aren't animals is as silly as saying fish aren't meat. A common yet completely unscientific position. It is 99% of the time motivated by either egoism, religious fundamentalism, or both.

Lord Patrick 00:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ape is a term used by some scientists to biasely refer to "Hominoidea". Other scientists simply say "Hominoids" when they refer to Hominoidea. Easy, unambiguous and not biased. They also use the word "apes" to refer to... the apes (four handed, speachless furry hominoids: Orang-outans, gorillas, chimps). This wiki article is hiding the second use.--91.117.8.46 14:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC) El PaleoFreak

Suppose some scientists were to group certain people (including black people) under a group which they called "niggers" and then claimed that black people were technically niggers and that they were using the word in a scientific sense rather than a derogatory sense. I'm pretty sure their would be plenty of arguments from people that that was a personal attack. It's the same with scientists using "ape" to refer to humans. It's a personal attack. Grouping people or certain groups of people under a derogatory term is a personal attack. Since scientists have the word "hominoid", why not use the to group humans with the chimpanzees etc. rather than using the derogatory term "ape" which is no less bad than grouping certain humans using the derogatory term "nigger". Voortle 03:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If you object to being called an ape, just call yourself a "hominoid" instead... AnonMoos 01:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, your definition of personal attack is skewed. A personal attack is, according to Roget's New Millenium Thesaurus, "attack someone's reputation" or "attempt to defame another". Scientists have placed humans in Hominoidea for decades. Why would they want to insult their own species? Lord Patrick 05:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You haven't been listening to a word I have been saying. I'm not saying we're not in Hominoidea, I'm saying we're not apes. "ape" and "Hominoidea" are different words, though you may think they're the same word. Is your English poor or what? Voortle 14:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=ape "any of various primates with short tails or no tail at all". As humans are primates: http://sciencenorth.ca/chimp/glossary.htm "The Order of Primates is made up of 12 Families. Primates are athletic and intelligent. Most eat plants, but a few are hunters. They also display intricate social behaviour, especially in apes like the gorilla and chimpanzee", and have short or no tails in nearly all cases, they are apes. Lord Patrick 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

They aren't the same word. But in the scientific context, ape means hominoidea. Just as similarly as animal means animalia. So we are both apes and animals. Some may find this offensive. If you don't want to consider yourself an ape, that's up to you. Also, I should point out that most scientists think that biologically/genetically, race is a meaningless concept. So it's rather unlikely biologists will decide to call anyone a nigger (this isn't the only flaw in your suggestion but it's a key one) Nil Einne 20:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Under your logic, Christianity isn't a religion because "Religion and Christianity are different things!1!1!". The delicate sensibilities of egotistical individuals (not saying you are, merely some) do not change the facts. Science is not a public opinion poll, else gravity would be abolished by people who hate falling, and homosexuality would be declared a myth by fundies.

Lord Patrick 03:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Africa vs. Asia

I remember reading that most ape diversification happened in Asia, and that Chimpanzees, Humans, Gorillas probably descend from ape lineages that moved back from Asia to Africa.[3] If correct, this should be mentioned in the article... AnonMoos 02:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page broken

The article does not seem to correspond to the code on the edit page, namely the Miss Ford nonsense is still tacked on at the end of the introductory paragraph, and the Historical and Modern Terminology section is completely missing. I can't figure out how to reverse this. {{subst:unnsigned|24.79.79.76}}

Looks fine to me. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, there is definitely something wrong with the page. I was going to delete the paragraph referring to "Miss Ford," but couldn't find it in the edit page.147.222.24.23 20:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just reloaded the page, and the Miss Ford stuff disappeared.147.222.24.23 20:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Behaviour and cognition

(I've modified this comment of mine after doing some more editing on the article)

I have removed the following section from the "Cultural aspects..." section. It isn't about cultural aspects in the sense of the rest of material in that section, and it is well below the quality standards of Wikipedia (and of most of the rest of this article). I will add some quick notes on scientific work on ape cognition to replace it.

Humans and the other apes share many similarities, including the ability to properly use tools and imitate others. Recent studies at Yale test some of these similarities. A professor and his/her students gave a challenge to baby humans and baby chimps. Both groups were shown a way that might solve this challenge. However, neither group knew that the solution they were shown was incorrect. Both times the baby humans tried to complete the challenge, they imitated what they were shown and failed at the attempt. The chimpanzee babies also failed their first attempt, as they too mimicked what they were shown. However, on their second attempt, they created a novel solution, and thus completed the challenge. The professor interpreted this as meaning that baby chimps learn from experience, while baby humans just imitate what they are shown. This gave scientists key information in understanding the cultural aspects of ape life and evolutionary similarities between humans and apes.

There have also been recent breakthroughs in evidence of ape culture that go beyond what was explained above. This was further explored by scientists at the convention in St. Louis.^[1]

Instead, I have added some very brief notes outlining some main findings on behaviour and evolution. It obviously could be greatly expanded, but most of what might go in it is probably better placed on other pages (for example, the social behaviour has so little coherence that it is much better placed with the individual species or groups). Cognition has more uniformity, but could become enormous; perhaps we should have a page on "Ape cognition". This whole section could do with a lot more referencing, though the links to other pages will lead to references - I don't have time to do it at the moment.

seglea 19:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a few minor edits. Why did you move the section to near the end of the article? - UtherSRG (talk) 19:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heed the warning - get back to Wikipedia

The furor over humans as apes basically derives from the unaccustomed use of the term ape to mean human. Now, it can only be unaccustomed for one of two reasons, either it is something new, or it was invented for this article only. If some palaeoanthropologists want to call us apes and Wikipedia wants to report that fact then let us have the citations on BOTH sides of the issue. Without those citations this track is either wrong or is original research and in either case does not belong on Wikipedia. We have had plenty of discussion, so much so someone has seen fit to warn us. I think we are over the discussion phase and some of you do also, one way or the other. Now it is time to settle this properly. There is no point at all in taking a vote. It is NOT up to us to decide the question, only to report what palaeoanthropologists are doing. And beware, stop drawing your own conclusions from what they are saying in scientific language. What I want to see is, some palaeoanthropologist of repute who classifies man as a great ape explicitly: "the hominidae are great apes", "man is a great ape.". Nothing less will do. And then I want to see some statement that other palaeoanthropologists do NOT use this terminology. Find me a scientist who translates Hominidae or Homininae as "Great Ape." In blunt terms, put up or shut up. Now, others have already put citation requests in here, as this is the next logical step. Well, if that is not enough, we can escalate to accuracy and original research tags and pop this into the lap of the administrators. As this is a major educational issue, to promulgate an encyclopedia to impressionable youngsters calling us great apes, and to put it on a CD, I think we owe it to ourselves as public to be sure of what we are talking about, don't you? What also might happen is, Wikipedia will lose whatever credibility in this field it had and the article will slide into chaos, like so many others.Dave 02:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UtherSRG deletions

Hello Uther. You seem to keep deleting whatever I do. I see also you are on the committee for this and also you have a barnstar. And I must say there is a lot about the artcle that is right. That does not mean you are always right. Here is what I think the article needs and what I propose:

• Split it into ape and Hominoidea. The two are not identical and people want to know what Hominoidea are without being told they are apes.
• Stop calling humans great apes. That is contrary to the English language. Look it up in any dictionary.
• Remove "Cultural Aspects of non-human apeas" as being unsupported opinion and original work.

I appreciate the "Changes in taxonomy over time" with the nice tree diagrams and that Homo and Pan come out to be Hominins. Sounds reasonable. That does not make humans great apes any more than it make great apes humans. An ape will never be a human in the English language and Wikipedia's attempts to make them so are original research.

There is one more issue. You keep deleting my requests for citations with the simple note "ridiculous." By what authority do you do that? And quit calling me "ridiculous." I appreciate that in order to get a good article someone has to take charge of it. I wouldn't want you to get frustrated and quit. So, I will just leave this up to your conscience. But, here is a question for you to ponder: are you insisting on the ape=human equation to shock the public or to inform them? I'm leaving this article now as I have other things to do, but I'll be checking back to see what it looks like later. After all, we do have a public. Let's see what they say.Dave 05:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If people don't want facts, then they shouldn't of come to a damn encyclopedia. Should we split our Terra article to avoid offending creationists? Lord Patrick 05:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is not factual. It acts as if people use "ape" to include humans, which they don't. Voortle 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is not a dictionary. A dictionary is concerned with documenting how language is used commonly. An encyclopedia puts facts as more important than usage. Humans are apes, that is a fact. That fact is more important than the common usage of the word "ape" to not include "human". A more technically correct phrase for that would be "non-human apes". - UtherSRG (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust denial is nonsense. That's a fact. Yet that's not included in the article. If humans being apes were a fact, people would use "ape" to include humans. They don't. Voortle 00:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Most people use animal to mean non human. Does that make taxonomy incorrect? Lord Patrick 21:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it means common usage is incorrect, or at least, imprecise. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

"ape" refers to nonhuman Hominoidea. The term "nonhuman ape" is redundant and cumbersome and is something up of which we shall not put. Voortle 16:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The term ape includes all homonoids, including humans. I agree with UtherSRG's statements. — Knowledge Seeker দ 17:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That's like saying you can't end a sentence with a preposition. It's ridiculous. Words are defined by how they're used and nothing more than that. "nonhuman ape" is a term up of which Wikipedia should not put. It's a redundancy like "ATM machine" and "month of February". Voortle 13:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That comparison is not quite accurate. The preposition rule is relatively arbitrary. However, while ape tends to be reserved for nonhumans in lay usage, it has a relatively strict meaning in biology. In general, biological groupings tend to follow clades (not all are, though the trend is towards increasing use). That is, a group should consist of an organism and all of its descendants; a portion should not be excluded (this would be paraphyly. From a biological standpoint, there are several good reasons to consider all descendants within the grouping, and that's why ape is usually used to refer to the entire superfamily; excluding one genus (or one species!) from the superfamily doesn't make a whole lot of biological sense. The article should certainly reflect, though, that common usage differs from the biological usage (as it does for many things). Finally, I would suggest that when you keep reusing the (possibly) Churchill quotation, it loses its effectiveness. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)