User talk:Apcbg

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Good luck! Imacdo 22:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 New articles 2 Combining articles 3 Copyright 4 Formatting Nesebar Gap and others 5 Map sources 6 Peaks 7 New articles (yet again) 8 Welcome & help offer 9 Nothanks 10 New category 11 Wikipedia: If it ain't broke fix it 12 Vazov Point 13 Antarctica 14 Finished! 15 St. Kliment Ohridski 16 Image Tagging Image:Tarnovo-Livingston.jpg 17 Churches in Antarctica 18 Antartica image 19 Catalan wiki 20 Reverting the Antarctica FAC 21 Re {{Outlying areas of Europe}} 21.1 Flags 21.1.1 {{Peri-Antarctic countries and overseas territories}} 21.2 Compact version 21.3 Trying to reduce line height 22 Re Peri-Antarctic 23 Edits in the article of the SGSSI 24 Your attacks 25 Mercator Cooper 26 Bulgarian lev 27 Your map is a featured picture candidate

[edit] New articles

Thank you for creating new articles, but it would be very helpful if you would edit them into Wikipedia article form; see the links above for guidance. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Combining articles

I notice that many of your articles are geographical in nature and seem to be related. Could you combine these articles into one, rather than having several articles that are not tied together in any way? Thanks! --Bugturd 00:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, perhaps you could make one large article with all of these places inside them, rather than dozens of articles. Rory096 03:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

Please don't copy directly from copyrighted sources, like http://apc.mfa.government.bg/peaks/elena.htm , these contributions will have to be deleted. Kappa 00:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

--- Yes I can confirm the permission to freely use this material published by the website of the Antarctic Place-names Commission of Bulgaria, http://apc.mfa.government.bg/ and also in the SCAR Composite Gazetteer of Antarctica website http://www.pnra.it/SCAR_GAZE.

Dr. Lyubomir Ivanov Chairman Antarctic Place-names Commission of Bulgaria apcbg@yahoo.com

Wonderful. It would be helpful if you can confirm this, either by putting a message on the website somewhere or by sending an email to permissions (at) wikimedia.org. Thanks, AJR | Talk 02:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Message to permissions (at) wikimedia.org sent. Apcbg.

[edit] Formatting Nesebar Gap and others

Hi there! It's great to see that Wikipedia has permission to include this content into the encyclopedia. However, they are currently not very formatted - for example, see Wikipedia:Guide to layout. If you don't want to do the formatting just yet, or you would like someone to help you with it, please add the {{wikify}} tag to the end of the page, to mark it down as needing formatting. Thanks. enochlau (talk) 10:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Apcbg.

Something helpful would be to write an introductory sentence saying Nesebar Gap is a such-and-such geographical feature found in such-and-such a place. As the article stands, I'm not quite sure what it is... NickelShoe 19:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right I guess. The present first sentence reading "The 1.3 km wide gap in eastern Livingston Island bounded to the W by Pliska Ridge and to the E by the northern slope of Mount Friesland, Tangra Mountains" is communicating precisely what you ask for: the feature is a gap (i.e. "depression in a range of mountains or hills"), and is situated on Livingston Island. Its clumsy phrasing however could be streamlined; judging from the first articles in this series formatted by Kcordina I expect that in this case he/she may improve the text by probably splitting the sentence in two, adding 'Antarctica' after 'Livingston Island' etc.

[edit] Map sources

Here we are, all offering you helpful suggestions. Mine is: it does not need much extra keying to turn a naked lat and long into a link to Egil's map sources page - see Razlog Cove. Not only do you get map links straight away but within a few days, the articles will be indexed by Pintomap. -- RHaworth 12:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peaks

Hello Apcbg. I see that you are making a lot of contributions regarding some geological peaks, which is very interesting, and apparently missing here at wikipedia. But, I just wanted to leave you a suggestion that will make you stay here at wikipedia much more enjoyable. Copying information from other sites verbatim tips off the myriad of editors and admins here that a copyright violation has occurred. So, despite the fact that you have mentioned that you are permitted to copy it - it will probably keep getting tagged until you do one of (and preferably a combination) of the following things: (1) make some kind of notation of this in the talk pages of the various new pages you're creating (along with proof that this is true). You can put the same thing on every talk page - that's fine. Also (2) Reword the information. Wikipedia favors prose over lists and bullets, and so it is important that you turn these into readable articles. Not only would this eliminate the copyright issue, but would avoid the articles getting tagged for other reasons (like needing cleanup or needing to be wikified). Perhaps you can illicit a buddy to help you with the project, as there may be someone here at wikipedia who shares your interest. I would recommend visiting articles on related topics and seeing who else is working on similar articles. Regardless, I hope these suggestions will minimize your copyright issues and leave you more time to do what you want to do, which is spread knowledge about these beautiful peaks.--Esprit15d 20:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• Putting a note on every talk page is a bit long winded - better to have a template common to each article - template:Bulgarian-named Antarctic place is a bit long-winded but quite specific. This would provide a link to the article that lists all these places (you do have a list don't you?). An HTML comment or <noinclude> note in the template can give the copyright release details. -- RHaworth 21:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New articles (yet again)

While we're pleased to have new articles, you are refusing (depite numerous requests and helpful advice) to dio anything in the way of formatting them correctly. This causes other editors a great deal of work. Please learn how to present a Wikipedia article and edit accordingly. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some of the relevant articles are yet to be un-tagged to become editable. Apcbg 08:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. Moreover I was referring to the string of new articles that you created, all unformmatted just like the previous ones. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikification is something new to me; maybe I'll try first an approximation like e.g. the current version of Academia Peak then possibly improve it towards the standards here and take into account some useful suggestions made above.Apcbg 10:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome & help offer

Hi. Firstly, well done on an impressive set of contributions - loads of good information there. I'm happy to work through them and copyedit them into the wikipedia 'style' and tidy up, and have started doing so on Arda Peak (+ Asparuh Peak and Asen Peak), . I'm not an expert on the subject though, so please check them to make sure I don't introduce any errors. I'm a firm believer that people should contribute what they know best - you clearly know your geography, so if you get the information on here, I'll format it! Kcordina 14:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kcordina, great thanks for the kind offer! Your intervention is most welcome and appreciated indeed. The edited articles are okay. Perhaps the directions would be better spelled with lower case initials and fewer hyphens (south, southeast, east-southeast etc.). The phrase about the mapping that you seem to have removed is actually about the first mapping of the feature -- an information that might or might not be worth keeping in the text. Apcbg 19:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Glad they're OK! I'll retain the note about the first mapping. I couldn't decide whether North/South etc had capitals or not, I'll leave them out from now. When having a conversation via talk pages it's easier if you leave a message on the other persons talk page, then they get a note letting them know that someone has said something to them - it's a bit odd as it means the two halves of a conversation are in different places, but seems to work best that way. Kcordina 09:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the pictures & pointers will be good additions to the articles. Check out the procedure for uploading them and sorting the copyright, rightly that is something that wikipedia insists is done correctly. Kcordina 11:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nothanks

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Kresna Gully, but we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from either web sites or printed material. Perhaps you would like to rewrite the article in your own words. For more information about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, take a look at our Five Pillars. Happy editing! SoothingR 18:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, although for future reference I would like to ask you not to post any new messages on my userpage. Please use my talkpage. Anyway, yes, I recognized that Kresna Gully was indeed a valid article. Hence is why I removed the {{copyvio}}-tag only 15 minutes after I initially put it up there. So, there's no need to worry :) your article stays. I apoligize for the confusion which I have brought up.SoothingR 22:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New category

Hello. I've created a Category:Geography of Livingston Island, which is more suitable than the present one for the Bulgaria-related Antarctic articles you've contributed. Please add them to it, as I've added some, but they're so many I simply can't cope. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 16:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Здравей! Разбирам какво имаш предвид. За момента е създадена само категория "Geography of Livingston Island", но разбира се не е проблем и ще направим и такива за Alexander Island и Greenwich Island.

Наистина е вярно, че статиите съчетават не само география, но и история, култура и топонимия, но така е също с голяма част от статиите за географски обекти като цяло, а тъкмо това разглеждат те. Просто такъв е принципът тук. Също трябва да отбележа, че липсата (засега) на статия или категория за историята на остров Ливингстън не е проблем (като асиметрия, например), защото в Уикипедия практиката е да се създават категории за всички по-тесни теми, където се насъбира голям брой статии, а в момента статиите за географията на Южните Шетландски острови са наистина доста като число, което налага да бъдат категоризирани по-точно, въпреки че историята не е застъпена отделно като категория. С Kcordina вече работим заедно по категоризацията, а на беседата ти исках да те уведомя за намеренията ни.

Бих искал също да те поздравя за наистина чудесния принос — невероятно количество от статии, много от тях доста детайлни и с наистина прекрасни снимки, и то по тема, която все още е зле застъпена в Уикипедия, да не говорим за родолюбската гордост, че именно на българските обекти в Антарктика е обърнато такова голямо внимание. Щастлив съм, че ще продължаваш да допълваш с информация настоящи и бъдещи статии.

Поздрави, → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 19:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia: If it ain't broke fix it

Just for the record. A random check in few of the articles I have recently contributed would suggest that subsequent editing along with the overall improvement and wikification has on some occasions introduced factual inaccuracies or editorial styles disregarding established English spelling or punctuation practices (s.a. the replacement of decimal points by decimal commas). I am opening no discussion as apparently anyone is free to edit at will here; nor am I going to allocate precious time to proofreading modified texts that have been carefully verified more than once before. In other words: While I am obviously responsible for my original texts, I am not responsible for searching or correcting subsequent questionable amendments, however obvious these might be to me.

A useful approach would be to politely point out the mistakes made by editors so they don't make them again. Kcordina 17:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kcordina, like I wrote the above was but a disclaimer. Otherwise, you are welcome to contact me at apcbg@yahoo.com for further clarification. Apcbg 06:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vazov Point

Vazov Point has been proposed for deletion. An editor thinks this geographical feature may not be notable enough for an article. Please see Wikipedia:Notability for the relevant concerns. NickelShoe 17:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Vazov Rock too.

Dear NickelShoe, please see the talk pages to Vazov Point and Vazov Rock. Naturally, geographical features in Antarctica would have a relatively greater 'notability' than comparable features elsewhere because they account for nearly 100 per cent of all notable features on a given territory there. (As you can imagine this percentage would be pretty low e.g. in a city or a densely populated area where the man-made features dominate both in quantity and significance.) The 'notability' of an Antarctic geographical feature may be further enhanced by its relevance as a landmark in the course of field work or navigation, or if ice free. All this is taken into account when the relevant place-naming authorities decide whether some feature merits a name or not. Apcbg 08:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the one who thought they should be deleted; I'm the one who bothered to let you know about it. That's great that you explained it on the talk page, but you didn't need to leave a note in the article itself, so I took it out. You can put a message like "oppose deletion see talk" in your edit summary. NickelShoe 11:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antarctica

Hi, thanks for the recent edit on Antarctica (about Solveig). However, would you happen to have a source or reference for it? While I don't doubt its accuracy, a reliable reference will reinforce that and is required for a featured article, such as Antarctica. Thanks! Gflores ^Talk 14:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick fix. :) Gflores ^Talk 19:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

There is some discussion on the Population section of Antarctica on the talk page. Gflores ^Talk 19:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks also for your references on the Solveig article. Little did I know what I was creating! ;). -Fsotrain09 22:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finished!

I think I have now tweaked all of the articles into some form of standard appearence, which hopefully leaves them standing as a good set of articles which can now be improved on further. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Kcordina 17:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Kliment Ohridski

The redirect is inappopriate. When someone enters St. Kliment Ohridski in the search engine, they would expect to find the article on Clement of Ohrid. The base is named after him and this, that means, should be clarified explicitly in the name of the article on the base. The name itself is OK, St. Kliment Ohridski Base, but the redirect itself is bad choice. If you find it necessary, I'll make changes to the article affected by the bad use of the name that are about 10, but undoing the change is inappropriate, unnecessary and, I believe, simply wrong. As for the other sites affected (Wikipedia mirrors?), they copy the Wikipedia database every once in a while, so you shouldn't bother about them too much. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 14:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't actually see the why the negative effect to other sites of a necessary change in Wikipedia can be of any relevance to undo it. These sites should've not been pointing to a badly-chosen redirect page, for a starter, and it's actually a problem of theirs to solve, not ours. I only care about issues concerning Wikipedia when making changes here, and I believe this is the correct approach. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 14:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the name was unoccupied, but it should have been a redirect to Clement of Ohrid and now is. Those external sites should have linked to St. Kliment Ohridski Base, this is the valid article, not the redirect. If you have entered that badly-chosen address in those sites and now regret it, I have nothing to do with this. And actually, there might not have been a practical problem, but there was a logical one — the title St. Kliment Ohridski should not have ever redirected to the Antarctic base. As for the users and their access to the Bulgarian Antarctic base article, I already said the real damage is done by the individual who entered the address of an inappropriate redirect page in those sites. If this is you, then you should have given the matter somewhat more thought before acting. It is OK that you don't find any further discussion necessary, just don't blame me when I haven't done anything wrong, on the contrary. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 16:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Tagging Image:Tarnovo-Livingston.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Tarnovo-Livingston.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Image legality questions page. Thank you. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 23:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Both pictures image:Tarnovo-Livingston.jpg and image:kuzman.jpg are sourced

The content of this article has been derived in whole or part from Lyubomir Ivanov. Permission has been received from the copyright holder to license this material under the GNU Free Documentation License, and evidence of this has been lodged with the Wikimedia PR department, under OTRS ticket number 2006013010000528. This template is used by approved volunteers dealing with the Wikimedia Open Ticket Request System (OTRS) after receipt of a clear statement of permission at permissions-en at wikimedia dot org. Do not use this template to claim permission.

but the latter should not appear also as a thumbnail at the location of the former. Apcbg 10:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The OTRS note is nice, but we still need you to add the usual GFDL tag. Also, I'm highly skeptical that Lyubomir Ivanov is the copyright holder for Image:28-02-06-Souvenir-Sheet.jpg - stamps are invariably copyright the national government or its postal service, and if this is really GFDL, it would be the first postal object in history to be so licensed. Stan 04:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Churches in Antarctica

Hello again! I gained interest in the matter of churches in Antarctica after an article about the Russian Trinity Church on King George Island reached the Did You Know square at the Main Page. It used to claim it is the southernmost church in Antarctica, which is false because, as far as I know, our chapel at St. Kliment Ohridski Base is located even more to the south (based on how I see the two islands on that map and the coordinates given), which even means the Russian one isn't even the southernmost Eastern Orthodox church in the world. I also did some research and found that site that also mentions some kind of 'universal' (i.e. Anglican, Catholic, Evangelist and so on, all-in-one) church at McMurdo Station, which I also believe is even more to the south. Could you please confirm that, if possible, or correct me if I'm wrong? Thanks in advance! → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 18:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that out and don't worry about the late response! The Russian church looks indeed very beautiful. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 17:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antartica image

The image was missing, appearing only as a red link. Though, I now notice some server problems going on with Commons, so the image might be still be there. Please add the image back if that's the case. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 20:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan wiki

I've seen you've been editing in the Catalan Wikipedia recently, and wrote (or should I said used an automatic translation of) an article on the History of South Gerogia. (And after having reviewed your involvement in several wikipedias in different languages, it seems that Antartica is your topic of interest). As part of the Catalan team, I must say that we appreciate your contributions. Nonetheless, it takes a while for our editors to change the hundreds of grammar and spelling errors of automatically translated articles (no automatic translator is perfect, not even among languages of the same family, Portuguese and Catalan, which you presumably used; try it from Dutch to English and you'll see the results!). I believe the best thing for you to do, since you do not speak Catalan, would be to communicate with English-speaking Catalan users (like me, or any other user) so that we can coordinate tasks for translation of new articles and/or edit those that you want to submit from automatic translation sites; otherwise, your contributions will be unintelligible for Catalan speakers. --J.Alonso 21:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Alonso:

Many thanks for your kind message, and for correcting (some of) the orthographic errors in my South Georgia article, which I both wrote and used automatic translation indeed. I highly appreciate your positive and constructive suggestion and will be happy to coordinate with you the translation into Catalan or editing of possible new contributions to the Catalan Wiki. Apcbg 07:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I reviewed the translations you did on [1]. Are you using an automatic translator? Do you have the original document with you? There are just a couple of grammar mistakes, but there's also some stuff that doesn't make sense, and I can't figure out what the translator did. --Alonso 22:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting the Antarctica FAC

Right, that's what I thought, that you were probably drawn in by the previous change. I didn't revert that one, since it wasn't a comment, but merely the user changing (=prettyfying) their own sig. Hey, I love the photo on your userpage! Bishonen | talk 09:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Re {{Outlying areas of Europe}}

Hi Apcbg,

Many thanks for your contribution to this article, but why did you remove the smaller entities? It was more informative to have them, more so that theirs are precisely the articles that have little or no other templates, while some of higher level entries may be even 'over-templated'.

I'm still working on this template, so stand by; I'll try to re-incorporate them in the structure. Thanks for your prompt feedback!  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The original template was based on a rather clear criterion for inclusion: Include those territories that are politically associated with Europe (European sovereignty) yet distant from Europe, typically situated closer to other continents than to any European country. Now with the recent changes, I am not so certain what the current principle might be, apparently not the original one as e.g. Ceuta and Melilla have disappeared with Svalbard and the Faroes added etc. I am afraid that the very idea of the template -- to present in a coherent way all the territories which are the global political extension of Europe beyond its narrow geographical limits -- may somehow get lost in the process. Apcbg 17:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Understood; I'll restore the original content of the template and add this criterion as a comment, in case anyone else decides to edit it. Hope you otherwise approve of the layout...?  Yours, David (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Sincere thanks, and yes an explanation of the principle and the template would be most welcome and useful indeed. My original idea was to stress commonality rather than division among respective nations (some of them have separate templates for their overseas territories), use local instead of English names though, and also use a neutral (e.g. alphabetical) ordering; this keeps the template more compact too. Best, Apcbg 17:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Have finished editing the template; see edit summaries for some comments re rationale. Re commonality, the template itself serves to group together all those European countries with outlying territories; or is there another commonality you have in mind (and I've missed!)...?  I guess the template's size could be reduced somewhat by reducing the row width and removing the divider lines (then reformatting the columns) but I understand if you (or anyone else) reckon it'd still be too large. Thanks for your thanks!  Regards, David (talk) 20:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it seems rather complete now. I have made some minor edits on a draft given below; you may delete it when not needed. Just a couple of points (and I would be happy to answer any further questions you might have). South Georgia is in the Southern Ocean no less than Bouvet or Kerguelen are. The heading background colour -- there are so many grey templates, why another? My proposal for pink is purely for aesthetic reasons :-) Regarding the Italian islands, sure they are close to Europe but still closer to Africa. If we have fixed a principle then we better follow it, otherwise the door would be open for any additions or removals. (Pantelleria is 70 km from Tunisia and 100 km from Sicily; for Lampedusa the distances are 145 km and 215 respectively.) As for the size, it is large indeed but now it has the 'hide' option. With the present structure, it's better to keep the divider lines too. Nevertheless, if you could reduce the enpty rows width to half-row, the overal picture would look finer I guess. Best, Apcbg 13:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Table updated taking into account changes made in the meantime by other participants; in particular, seems like greater details are not favoured, e.g. the subdivisions of the Azores (which by the way were originally introduced by some Portuguese-speaking user) are removed. Best, Apcbg 18:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Outlying territories of European countries

Territories under European sovereignty but closer to continents other than Europe
Denmark	Arctic	Grønland (Kalaallit Nunaat)
France	Atlantic and Caribbean	Guadeloupe (Guadeloupe, Saint-Barthélemy et Saint-Martin) • Martinique • Saint-Pierre et Miquelon
	Indian Ocean	Mayotte • Réunion • Îles Éparses (Bassas da India, Île Europa, Île Juan da Nova, Îles Glorieuses, Île Tromelin)
	Pacific	Île de Clipperton • Nouvelle-Calédonie (Kanaky) • Polynésie française (Îles Marquises, l'Archipel des Tuamotu, l'Archipel de la Société) • Wallis et Futuna
	South America	Guyane française
	Southern Ocean	Terres australes et antarctiques françaises (Îles Amsterdam et Saint-Paul, l'Archipel Crozet, Îles Kerguelen)
Italy	Mediterranean	Pantelleria • Isole Pelagie (Lampedusa, Linosa, Lampione)
Netherlands	Caribbean	Aruba • Nederlandse Antillen (Bonaire, Curaçao, Saba, Sint Eustatius, Sint Maarten)
Norway	Southern Ocean	Bouvetøya
Portugal	Atlantic	Arquipélago dos Açores • Arquipélago da Madeira
Spain	North Africa	Ceuta • Melilla • Plazas de soberanía menores (Chafarinas, Vélez de la Gomera, Alhusemas)
	Atlantic	Islas Canarias
United Kingdom	Atlantic and Caribbean	Anguilla • Bermuda • British Virgin Islands • Cayman Islands • Falkland Islands • Montserrat • Saint Helena (Ascension, Saint Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Gough) • Turks and Caicos Islands
	Indian Ocean	British Indian Ocean Territory (Chagos Archipelago)
	Pacific	Pitcairn Islands (Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie, Oeno)
	Southern Ocean	South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands

Thanks, Apcbg; I think the table looks great and I agree with all your amendments and corrections. I only wonder what I'm missing re trying to reduce the row widths – not that this is a "must-do". Also given its size, I don't know how to ensure the template's default state is hidden; this, however, is how it current seems to appear in the articles I've revisited. Thanks for creating an interesting template!  Yours, David (talk) 02:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

...Have just updated {{Outlying territories of European countries}} per the above. David (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks David, you have done a great job indeed; the template is now ready for its destruction by enthusiasts :-) Seriously, as people are likely to wonder why this or that particular territory is included, and yet another one is not, do you think that it would help users if they have a more formal algorithm so that they could easily check by themselves the correct application of the general principle? The relevant text may be put not on the template itself, but only on the template page above the table. Then it would not appear in articles featuring the template, but would be seen when someone goes to the template page. Possible wording:

In order to avoid possible confusion and misunderstanding, the eligibility for inclusion in this template is defined technically as follows. An European outlying territory is a territory which: (1) has any political status other than independent country; (2) has a common sovereignty with some member state of the Council of Europe; and (3) either (a) the nearest independent country is not a member of the Council of Europe, or (b) the distance to the nearest European territory is more than 400 nautical miles. (The distance in (a) is measured to the nearest other territory; the distance in (b) is twice the EEZ limit under the Law of the Sea Convention, ensuring that the respective jurisdictional waters are not contiguous.)

Best, Apcbg 07:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point; "Territories under European sovereignty but closer to continents other than Europe" is a rule of thumb, but I agree your paragraph is something better to which to point folk toward in future. I've added it to the template's <noinclude> section and a "(see inclusion criteria for further information)" link to the template. Yours, David (talk) 08:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sincere thanks! Best, Apcbg 08:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

Re [2], are you particularly fond of these flags...?  I realise it's only one opinion, but to me they look like "blots on the template's landscape"...  Regards, David (talk) 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well it was just a try; maybe you're right, so I removed them. While on this topic, is it possible to reduce only the height of the empty rows and the rows with horizontal dividing lines? And another question, why some articles open with this template hidden and others don't? Also, sometimes the opening of the template moves other templates around (South Georgia & SSI; History of SGSSI) or overlaps with them (Greenland)? And one last question, do you think that the Bulgarian and Portuguese versions of the template would be better too without flags? I'd appreciate having your advice. Best, Apcbg 14:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

...is it possible to reduce only the height of the empty rows and the rows with horizontal dividing lines?

Should be; I have an idea how, but unfortunately I'm not a CSS/HTML whizz...

...why some articles open with this template hidden and others don't?

Good question!  Maybe there's a straightforward way to find out who designed the "Nav*" classes used to enable this feature and ask him/her/them whether a default may be set...?

Also, sometimes the opening of the template moves other templates around...

Ditto;

...do you think that the Bulgarian and Portuguese versions of the template would be better too without flags?

Do you mean one or more templates on the Bulgaria and Portgual pages, or on the Bulgarian/Portugese Wikipedias/e...?

Regards, David (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I mean the Portuguese and the Bulgarian versions of this particular template. Best, Apcbg 15:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

...As in those links at the bottom of the template's code – sorry!  Personally, I'd prefer them without, per the above, but maybe that's something the users of the Portugese and Bulgarian Wikipedias/e should decide...  Yours, David (talk) 16:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Peri-Antarctic countries and overseas territories}}

Guess what... David (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear David:

Many thanks for all your answers and advice. I shall follow your better judgement, and correspondingly remove the flags in several related templates in few Wikipedias. Some wasted time and effort on my part, but that's the price for a lesson too ... Best, Apcbg 17:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's only one opinion; other folk may take an interest someday and add them again... I'm not against flags per se, but as their shape is angular I guess I prefer them aligned. So, if you'd prefer to keep the flags and can cook up some way to align them... maybe, though, the result might still look too complex... Meanwhile, if I had a dollar/euro/etc for every time some work has been reverted (often by myself!)... Yours, David (talk) 17:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably something like Modèle:Pays d'Europe, but you are right also that it would be too complex if the structure showing the relevant world regions and European countries is preserved; besides, the flags of the UK overseas territories are too similar at this scale. Anyway, I removed them all (at least that was easier than inserting them in the first place). Thanks again. Best, Apcbg 19:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compact version

Perhaps somewhat déjà vu, but this now carries a compact version of the template in case the tide of opinion favo/urs it. David (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to reduce line height

In the quest to find out how to alter the line/row heights in templates etc, I suddenly remembered an experienced template-maker, AzaToth. Here's my request for advice and his reply; unfortunately it doesn't look as straightforward as I'd hoped... Yours, David (talk) 13:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re Peri-Antarctic

Hi again Apcbg,

...please restore the original list of countries and territories. The template is about countries and overseqas territories that are per-Antarctic themselves...

Having removed Argentine Antarctica, I then forget what "peri-Antarctic" means...!  Time for a break, I think, once I've corrected the template... Thanks for spotting my error so promptly. Best wishes, David Kernow (talk) 09:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks! Best, Apcbg 10:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits in the article of the SGSSI

—Argentino (talk/cont.) 00:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi! That was an easily discernible edit, I just added a map. Anyway, thanks for reminding me about edit summaries; sometimes one is in a hurry, and edit summaries cannot be appended later I guess. Best, Apcbg 08:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your attacks

Please give some good reasons fopr your attacks on me on the Falkland Island talk page, and explaion why you object to this edit so strongly. I remind you there is no policy to say an editor can demand that no other editors edit the opening of any unprotected article, SqueakBox 20:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not interested in ad hominem arguments, so I never discussed (let alone attacked) you but particular topics. As already explained, the idea that the islands "have been the subject of a claim to sovereignty by Argentina since the early years of Argentina's independence from Spain in 1810" is factually untrue; neither did Argentina claim independence in 1810 nor did it claim the islands in 1810. Apcbg 21:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, I got the bit about independence from the Argentine page, where the first date under independence on the info box is 1810, I said absolutelty nothing other than that was the date of independence, I certainly made no other claim, SqueakBox 22:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In your text "since the early years of Argentina's independence from Spain in 1810" the independence appears as an accomplished fact in 1810, which is untrue. You have taken '1810' out of its context; in that infobox '1810' is the date of an event (the May Revolution) that preceded even the declaration of independence (1816 as given in the infobox) let alone the recognition of that independence (wrongly given in the infobox as 1821; the treaty between Spain and Argentina recognizing Argentina's independence was only concluded in the 1860s). The year '1810' was not "the date of independence". Apcbg 22:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

yes, but we are hardly debating that edit that hasnt stood in the last few days anywway and certainly isnt an issue right now. What of that edit do you currently object to with such vehemence? SqueakBox 23:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

We already discussed that and you ended up stating that “claim implies dispute and there is no evidence of a disputed claim to sovereingty before 1833”. Well this statement of yours is untrue, for there were conflicting claims before 1833. First, Spain specifically reiterated its claim in 1811, and did not resign its sovereignty and claims in the region until 1860s; second, Britain protested against Argentina’s activities in 1829 and reiterated its own sovereignty claim which, Britain reminded, had never been given up; and thirdly, the US Government explicitly rejected the Argentine claim and the Argentine attempt to establish effective control by force in 1831, and responded by force in December 1831 - January 1832. Apcbg 23:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, source and add. I'm really not trying to stir controversy, my edits were in good faith. I am a Brit who lives in a Hispanc culture, and who believes that both the invasion and the war were wrong but that the first led inexorably to the second. What Galtiri was doing metiendose con Thatcher God alone knows but once she discovered that the reoccupation was politically feasible there was no stopping her, y ademas she was clearly overall a hugely positive influence on the UK. I dont feel my edits were in contrary to what you are trying to say but do think that facts are better than generalisations, I only reverted what someone else had already reverted, add it well sourced and vamos a cambiar el opening and make it better, SqueakBox 02:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"... source and add ... vamos a cambiar el opening and make it better"?

I would rather not, for "Better is the Enemy of Good Enough" in this case I'm afraid. If I do it, I would be changing unilaterally the wording that was agreed as a compromise between a number of participants having different (all of them sourced) views as to what should be in the preamble.

The wording "... have been the subject of a claim to sovereignty by Argentina since the early years of Argentina's independence from Spain" is good enough for a preamble, all the (important) details about 1811, 1816, 1820, 1831, 1833, plaques, formal protests, arrests, use of force etc. have their proper place in the main text that follows the preamble.

"... but do think that facts are better than generalisations" — not in the opening of an article, which is precisely the place for generalizations rather than detailed facts.

In any case, I wouldn't support any change in the consensus text of the preamble without a new debate with more participants from among the regular contributors to this article. Apcbg

[edit] Mercator Cooper

Thanks for your edits. I thought at first they answered a couple open spots in the article. But now I have a couple questions. Did anybody other than Davis land on Antarctica before Cooper? (although the reference I used does refer to Great Antactica). The wiki article notes the 1821 landing is in dispute. I absolutely cannot find any links to reference to St. Peter in the Bonin Islands. Other accounts of the landing refer to "northern Japanese islands." There of course is some logic if there was an American whalebase in the Bonins. Thanks. Americasroof 20:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I can recall no records for other landings on the mainland between those of Davis and Cooper, by the way the landing of Davis is documented and I see no reasons to question it; the wiki article cites no sources of possible doubts (so that remark should actually be withdrawn); I would be interested to see such sources if any. There is a web reference to 'S. Peter's rock' in Bonin Islands, mentioned in connection with another wreckage. The islands were used by the Americans and the British as a whaling base in the early 19th century; as they were later annexed by Japan, the early European names for the individual islands became possibly superceded by Japanese names. Pribilof Islands are highly improbable; I don't think they were even visited by Japanese at that time, and indeed they were Russian islands and by no means "northern Japanese islands". Apcbg 22:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for going the extra mile! It's a big help! 02:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian lev

Hi Apcbg, you did a small change on Bulgarian lev where you changed a sentence of "the exchange rate Euro to German mark is" to "the exchange rate Euro to German mark was". I reverted your change, because the mark was replaced by the euro, but the exchange rate itself still exists (and is used by the Bundesbank if you want to exchange some old marks into euro anytime in the future). The past tense is simply not correct then. Cheers, MikeZ 09:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll not revert it, although your logic seems questionable to me. That that exchange rate still exists — which means that the Bundesbank is in a position to change it by the way — is a subsequent development quite irrelevant to the Bulgarian Lev. The past time is quite correct because the sentence narrates a past event. Best, Apcbg 16:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Got your point that it's quite irrelevant to the Bulgarian Lev. I just wanted to point out that this same exchange rate is still existing - and, you're right, is fixed. I just feared that the past tense could be read as was at this time and would therefore indicating a rate either non-fixed or non-existent. Cheers, MikeZ 08:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your map is a featured picture candidate

Hi! I've just nominated your map Image:Livingston-Greenwich-map.jpg for featured picture status. The nomination is at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Map of Livingston Island and Greenwich Island. Hope the nomination is successful, it deserves it. Best, Todor→Bozhinov 18:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)