Template talk:Antisemitism

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[edit] tnavbar

The template editing navigation bar is not required in Templates, and is clearly a bad idea here. The Anti-Semitism template is not one that is likely to need editing very often, but is one that is likely to attract vandals of a, well, anti-Semitic kind. I note that Ben Houston has stated he has the Template on his watchlist, and implied that he is prepared to guard the template from vandalism 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. However, as he is well aware, few people edit for those kinds of prolonged stretches; indeed, someone who does is likely to have Ben accuse them of being some sort of committee or team, and ask for them to be CheckUsered. In fact, user Ben Houston seems rather free with the accusations of "teams" doing various things, including reverting this template. Jayjg (talk) 22:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't care what you do with the template, but claiming you can 3RR people for "tag-team reverting" is stupid. Tag-team reverting, as you call it, is the functional manifestation of a significant disagreement with your change, and a sign you should discuss the idea first. --tjstrf 23:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
TNavbars encourage participation, and Wikipedia explicitly accepts that some vandalism will occur because of its open model but acknowledges and accepts that sacrifice as necessary and worth it. All related templates that I could find have tnavbars (see Template:Israel-Palestinian Conflict, Template:Arab-Israeli conflict, and Template:Jew, etc) and even contentious subject templates such as Template:ScientologySeries and Template:Abortion have tnavbars. I strongly believe that it is because I made the addition that it is all of a sudden not allowed on this template. --Deodar 23:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
As a reasonably objective viewer (I have, like, 3 edits to Israel-Palestine-Jew anything) I believe Houston's proposed change would do no harm. You can hardly even see the little links it adds to start with, few drive-by vandals would notice the little tiny 3pt letters. It wouldn't really help anything either, but just letting him add them is probably the simplest solution to this problem. --tjstrf 23:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
There's essentially no history of vandalism on this template. I'm not understanding the motivation to reduce access through the removal of this useful tool when there is nada in terms of vandalism. The template doesn't even have 50 What links here? pages referencing it so it doesn't even qualify as a Wikipedia:High-risk template. (→Netscott) 21:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template Vandalism

Looks like vandals don't need the edit macro to vandalize the template. It is clear that this is not a random or an anti-Semitic vandal (as per your fears) but rather someone moderately sophisticated who knows of the editors involved. The vandalism lasted 3 minutes btw. --Deodar 11:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's not a random vandal, but a stalker who was drawn here, intent on harassing because of the attention you have drawn to this. Jayjg (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
How interesting that Bhouston implies that "someone moderately sophisticated who knows of the editors involved" is ipso facto not an anti-Semitic vandal. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Could have been anti-Semitic, it seemed overly stereotypical, the edit summary was too referential and strangely that account was made weeks before it made that single edit -- it came across as more as how Jayjg described him/her than an anti-Semitic vandal, but you are right that motivates can be multiple. I suggest that someone with blocking powers block it. And yeah, its probably best from your position to make tangential insinuations than deal with the actual content of the dispute. --Deodar 19:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain that our friend Jay here checkuser'd the account. If this assumption is correction, I would also bet that he shared results with our friend SlimVirgin here. Both users are familiar with me, and have their own opinions of me, as do many wiki-users. Sadly. those opinions are often based in ignorance. Suffice it to say that I am not an anti-semite, nor was I stalking anyone, although I have partaken in my share of trolling. I just happened to spot a trace of the revert war when perusing recent changes (which is how I prefer to read and edit wikis), and thought it would be lol to come and vandalize it. I am quite familiar with both Slim and Jay, and although I feel I've resolved my personal conflicts with them, I am also aware of their coordinated attempts to control content relevent to their interests. Whether this is PoV pushing or not, I have yet to evaluate. (It appears not to be,to be truthful, but still rather suspicious, and disruptive in its own right). Anyway, that's all I'll say on this subject for the moment. --Collateral Damage 01:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
My guess — and I can only guess, your allegations notwithstanding — is that he has not check-usered you, because you're almost certainly a banned editor or a deceptive sock, so if he'd done a check user, you'd likely be blocked by now. My speculation, of course. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I do suppose that it is possible that he did not. I thought that someone had just neglected to block me, as I kinda took it as a given that the account would be easily identified as a sleeper account of either a vandal or a troll. (Your presumption that I am a sock of a banned editor is, fyi, right on the dot, and to be frank, I'm surprised this account is not already blocked). --Collateral Damage 01:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I admire your honesty. Care to say which banned editor? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
You couldn't tell? On another note, I'm actually quite pleasantly surprised at how cordial this discussion has been, despite the other overtones. Quite a different experience than I recall. Anyway, I must be going now. Work and all that. --Collateral Damage 02:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a minor edit and I'll leave it now, since pushing it further would risk WP:POINT. But still, I didn't cause the conflict by myself, you and SlimVirgin insisted on repeatedly reverting my minor and harmless change based on my continued exclusion from a set of articles that appear to have been chosen arbitrarily by SlimVirgin. Like most of the changes I have pushed for in the NAS article, I expect this template to incorporate my minor but simply logically suggestion eventually anyhow. --Deodar 19:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

On the overall subject of vandalism of this template, I'd say I have to agree with Collateral D. This edit war is the most unusual and pointless I've ever seen and deserves to be targeted regardless of WP:POINT. Though this edit war is not particularly damaging to anyone, the unique nature of this argument over ways to prevent vandalism before any has occered deserves to be highlighted somehow. I'd like to encourage the tnavbar revert war to stop immediately. M i c 22:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I tend to support removing the edit template here. Unlike articles, templates tend to be pretty static, there really doesn't need to be an edit template here - if someone needs to add or delete from the template they'll know how to do it without a special link at the bottom. GabrielF 23:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

There is some important context here that I should share. I strongly believe that SlimVirgin and Jayjg revert my edits on a set of articles whether or not my article edits are legitimate. I have complained about it before here on AN/I [1]. I collaborated recently on the creation of the Template:Israel-Palestinian Conflict, which went very well. During that collaboration I discovered the tnavbar macro and applied it to 4 templates that were missing it at the same time. One of those templates was Template:Anti-Semitism. Only that addition was reverted repeatedly for what I believe were unique and invalid arguments -- it just further proves to me that I am targeted to be treated unfairly by these two. --Deodar 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Gabriel, I agree. This isn't an article, and edits to it will be few and far between. Any editor wanting to make a legitimate edit will know how to do it. No need to make it easy for the vandals. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Ben, must you add this untrue and irrelevant "context" every time you meet up with some new editor? Here's yet another example! You are abusing the Talk: pages to pursue a personal vendetta; please use the Talk: pages to discuss article content, and please stop slandering other editors. Jayjg (talk) 23:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I find that the context linked above to be quite true -- you and SlimVirgin's behavior towards my contributions is quite frustrating I must admit. --Deodar 23:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"But it's all true" is the typical (and typically weak) response many give upon being reminded of the WP:NPA policy. Even if it were true — and it's not — it's still not a defense. Jayjg (talk) 23:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I find you and SlimVirgin's collective behavior towards me to result in my marginalization from a set of articles, a marginalization that I believe to be unfair and prejudicial. --Deodar 23:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"Collective behavior"? That's conspiracy talk, the kind of thing that leads people to request CheckUsers because people edit too much for your liking, or to claim that 3RR applies to "teams". I have my behavior, others have their own behavior. Edit with common sense and an eye to policy and we won't have any problems. Jayjg (talk) 00:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I won't wade into your dispute but I'd remind you Bhouston that prior arguments over other editors behavior really isn't a justification for reverting something. I am happy to discuss things on the talk page but I wish you had responded to me by arguing the merits of my opinion. GabrielF 00:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I can deal with you GabrielF and if you think it should stay that's okay, let's leave it. My original reasoning was that they are useful and that most templates have them. Near the top of this page in response to Jayjg I wrote: "TNavbars encourage participation, and Wikipedia explicitly accepts that some vandalism will occur because of its open model but acknowledges and accepts that sacrifice as necessary and worth it. All related templates that I could find have tnavbars (see Template:Israel-Palestinian Conflict, Template:Arab-Israeli conflict, and Template:Jew, etc) and even contentious subject templates such as Template:ScientologySeries and Template:Abortion have tnavbars." --Deodar 00:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
In case the irony is missed, Bhouston has just admitted that he was reverting based on the names of the editors, which he was accusing others of doing. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say that and that wasn't what I was doing, although you are free to make any accusations towards me that you would desire. I note that you never made an argument for keeping the macro in on this page nor have you or Jayjg responded to tjstrf claim above that leaving it is in harmless and the right course. But I will take Musaabdulrashid's advice. --Deodar 00:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] nice improvements

I think the template has been significantly improved over the last day. The organization and the visual look is great. Good job. --Deodar 01:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I also think it is appropriate to remove the Self-hating Jew link -- classifying that as anti-Semitism seemed to be excessively POV. --Deodar 01:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Alot of things in the template is pretty PoV - for example insinuating that holocoast denial is grounded in antisemitism while it may or may not be. 212.10.217.122 18:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a very strong correlation between the Holocaust denial and antisemitism. Of course some deniers deny that. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you personally say with full confidence that every single case of holocoast denial out there are grounded in antisemitism? 212.10.217.122 20:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
That is not what "very strong correlation" means. This is my last response to you because you are engaging in trolling and strawman argument. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Writers

That section probably has its origins in New antisemitism. IMHO it needs rebalancing. I've added Leon Poliakov who wrote volumes on the subject of AS. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rework

I reworked the history section and added a few items there. Should we call it Accusations or False accusations? Not sure where to stick Wilhelm Marr - I don't think he was anything special, other than coining the misnomer. Also, I would remove the writers section - I don't think it does justice to many (some more notable than some in the list) who covered the phenomenon. If it stays, it should start with Josephus (see his Against Apion). Thoughts? ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Last call to remove Writers section. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Seems like a sensible move Humus considering the list can't be exhaustive, maybe provide a link to an article or list covering the writers found there? (→Netscott) 05:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Humus, doesn't it make sense to include a few of the most prominent scholars of antisemitism? I'm not wedded to any particular list of names, but I thought it'd be a good idea to include a section with a few of the best known/most influential ones. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternatives:

  1. Leave as is.
  2. Move to talk and work it out here.
  3. Create smth. like List of writers on antisemitism and/or Category:Writers on antisemitism - need a better title and have a link to it in the TL.
  4. Other?

I vote for #3 - preferably a list - it could include a couple of lines describing the contributions & relevant works on the subject, but let's think of a better title. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

#3 sounds good to me. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I created Antisemitism (resources). Let's populate it with useful resources. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lunacy

I'm not going to remove it, but to include Norman Finkelstein in the Anti-Semitism template is pure lunacy.

He is a Jew, a son of holocaust survivors. He isn't a holocaust denier. He doesn't hate, or spread hatred, against Jews.

He writes primarily about the state of Israel's conduct in terms of aggression against Palestinians and neighbouring states, and how those who question or oppose such conduct are, more often than not, branded as anti-Semites and the like.

Ironically, this is the very reason why he is, like Chomsky, often ignorantly branded an anti-Semite.

I'll keep my eye on this page to the best of my abilities. I would like there to be a discussion on this subject, as I really feel he has absolutely no place on this page.

Ventolin 06:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Finkelstein wasn't included because he's an antisemite (which he isn't), but because he writes about antisemitism, which is why all the others are included too. :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 06:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


Link removed, due to lack of discussion. I've replaced it with Gerald Fredrick Töben

Ventolin 14:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links to remove

I propose removing the following links from the "Allegations" section:

  1. Ritual murder — essentially a repetition of Blood libel.
  2. Usury — the link points to the general article on usury, which says nothing of usury as an antisemitic allegation. The link may be restored when we start something like Usury (antisemitism).
  3. Dreyfus Affair — an important affair, but just one out of many.

Beit Or 10:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll give you the ritual murder. As you probably know, Usury is relevant because it was a pretext for many persecutions - perhaps it should be expanded. I also feel that Dreyfus deserves to be there because it is probably the most notable case of racial AS. ←Humus sapiens ну? 12:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I second Beit Or on removal of Usury. The term itself is too broad to have any significant relevence to anti-Semitism.74.12.11.145 03:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note: Please see the village pump policy discussion regarding the "allegations" section of this template

here. Thanks. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kirbytime (talk • contribs) 20:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

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