Talk:Antoni Gaudí
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Antoni Guadi never felt Spanish, he never spoke Spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. It is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognized nation, (See Catalan New Status of autonomy) legally, the Catalan nationality exists. Define him as a Spanish It's like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.
Sagrada Família
In Catalan is 'Sagrada Família' -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27
- Having checked the Catalan version of www.sagradafamilia.org , I find that the Catalan name is Temple Expiatori de la Sagrada Família. - montréalais
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- ¿Y por qué lleva tilde en Catalán? La saqué de la palabra, pero voy a ponerla otra vez. - ElAmericano 01:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Catalan and Portuguese count vowels where Spanish counts syllables. Hence Catalan família and Portuguese António for Spanish familia and Antonio. --Error 01:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
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(( Kero20082002@yahoo.com / Kero20082002@hotmail.com ))
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[edit] Antonio and Antoni
Antoni (in Catalan) was his first name, now, how to rename the page? -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27
Is Antoni his Catalan first name, or what? The article's name Antonio, but that name isn't mentioned in the article. jheijmans, Wednesday, June 26, 2002
- Checking some other sources, it appears that he's already very well known as Antonio (at least in some other online encyclopedias) -- the count of occurrences seems to be about equal for both names. So, I will create a redirect with Antoni in the title, and mention both uses of the name in the header. jheijmans, Thursday, June 27, 2002
Antonio Gaudí is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Antoni Gaudí i Cornet.
This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.
Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.
Thank you! -- User:62.82.143.107
- I don't know if that is true. What name did he use for his publishing? Anyway:
- he is often found now in Spanish and in English as Antonio. It has to be mentioned.
- --Error 00:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Ack! my intention with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antoni_Gaud%C3%AD&diff=prev&oldid=19092179 was only to restore the proper glyphs to some links. I inadvertantly changed some Antoni to Antonio. I'm onboard with his given name, Antoni. When was the dictitorial order given to change such names? By whom? Why? with that info we can write a paragraph about the issue. -->>sparkit|TALK<< 00:30, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
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- Checking various language versions incl. Spanish and Catalan, all go with Antoni without referring the -io. Maybe a footnote is in order but the article should use Antoni. ~ trialsanderrors 08:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I boldly disagree and reenter a mention of Antonio. --Error 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Sculpted or built?
Are his works actually sculpted rather than built?
[edit] 3 times higher?
Are you sure about that 3 times higher thing? Can't seem to find it anywhere, though could be so.... in Gaudi's coppersmith imagination
Three times is incorrect. The central tower is supposed to be twice the height of the facade towers. The central tower is still proposed and four of the facade towers have been completed, one of which was finished by the time of his death. They are in fact, as he intended. ref. (Bonet i Armengol, J 2000, The essential Gaudi : the geometric modulation of the Church of the Sagrada Familia, 1a edn, Editorial Portic, Barcelona.)
[edit] Masterworks on subpages
Opinions: Should a person's masterworks be wikipedia subpages? I think they should be standalone articles for simplicity in cross-referencing, esp. if important enough, e.g. Mona_lisa rather than Leonardo/Mona Lisa....
What is the general consensus then ?
The point against the solution would be that it is naturally connected to the given person.
--Kpjas
- I really don't mind the subpages, I just am thinking of a typical need to reference without having extra characters to type. Sort of the "World Book" approach, ya wanna know about Sagrada Familia? Ya pick up the S volume... I don't agree that subpages are "naturally connected" (v.s.) any more than a separate article with a link. And how do you handle collaborations? After all Gaudi himself said "Work is the fruit of collaboration"...
- Among the works, El Capricho at Santillana del Mar and the bishop's palace at Astorga are missing. Somebody, get the dates and include them. -- Error 03:44 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
- Subpages are now deprecated, anyway. - Montréalais
- No, they should by no means be subpages. That is not Wikipedia policy for any articles. To move Wikipedia into a massive hierarchy (actually, it would turn into some sort of heirarchical web) would be chaos. - ElAmericano 01:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Corpse
The part about his corpse being run over is wrong, he wasn't dead. He went to a hospital that today is no longer a hospital, I forget the name, and he died a few days later. The part about him not being recognized is right though.
[edit] ABB
Sorry, but I think that Gaudí was born in Reus not in Riudoms.
[edit] Other works by Gaudi?
I've been visiting the official page for La Sagrada Familia where I've found these other constructions which mentioned as Gaudi's work :
- El Capricho
- Güell Real State
- Güell Palacel
- Episcopal Palace of Astorga
- Teresianas School
- Casa Botines
- Güell Cellars
- Bellesguard
- Cathedral of Mallorca
- I'm not aware of him having worked on that, and I'd want to see a more specific citation as to his role. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- Visited the place a couple of year's ago, and the shop was full of books on Gaudi. He was brought in to help with the restoration in 1901, his ideas were partially implemented, before he withdrew and the work stopped. Beautiful canopy above the alter - well worth a visit if you're in Palma. See the amendments in La Seu's entry. AMe 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of him having worked on that, and I'd want to see a more specific citation as to his role. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- La Pedrera
- Colònia Güell Church
Here's the URL to the page http://www.sagradafamilia.org/eng/temple/gaudi_obra.htm . I just wanted to check this with other who know more about him and then insert this names in the article. -- Shervinafshar 16:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
- Comments interspersed above. Could you give a link to the precise page you are referring to?
- My dates come from Gaudí, by David Mower, London:Oresko Books, 1977. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- Güell Real State. Refers to a Güell's Estate in Pedralbes (7, av. Pedralbes - Barcelona). Gaudí built the main door, (with an expressive forge-work dragon), the wall and some little pavilions. See [1]
- Güell Cellars. See [2]
- Cathedral of Mallorca. Gaudí worked in the restoration of the cathedral (1903-1914) (a young Josep Maria Jujol collaborated). See [3]
- Colònia Güell Church. Yes, only the crypt was built, and it's a masterpiece, Unesco's World Heritage. See [4]
--Joan sense nick 01:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Edit link problems
Does anyone know how to fix the edit link problem. Very bad. - ElAmericano 01:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- You'll have to clarify. I don't see any problem. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- The first couple of sections don't have "edit" links by the headers. Then, the late history has three such links beside it. - ElAmericano 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Family
[5]: Anon changed "oldest of five" to "youngest of five", no citation, I have no idea whether this is a correction of vandalism, would someone please cite or would someone knowledgable with an account please weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- The correction was, as it turns out, correct. I miswrote before, when I based my additions on the Spanish version of a source. - ElAmericano 22:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Interesting Information?
I removed the following section because it sounds like nonsense:
Although a big cat lover, he was less of a fan of smaller creatures, such as the wasp. This was shown when Gaudi used a large stick and lots of preservation to chase the wasps in Spain. They are yet to return. Gaudi was also a very generous man and did a lot of work for charity, most notably sacrificing his leg (right) to save the life of a small child, unfortunately the leg was too big.
Anyone know if part of this is based on fact and just poor translation, or is this utter nonsense? In any case it shouldn't be in the midst of his professional biography ~ trialsanderrors 08:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Why only Catalan?
I can't understand why the article says he was a "Catalan architect" and not a "Spanish architect". Are we politizicing the Wikipedia?. I'm Andalusian and I don't see that the articles of Lorca, Velazquez, Picasso, Machado, Cernuda, Murillo, Alberti or Aleixandre say "Andalusian artist". And I don't see why the article cannot say that Catalonia is not a country or that it belongs to Spain. It gives the impression that Catalonia is an independent nation when it is not. The name of Spain is only used to enlarge the figure of the architect as if to enlarge the figure of Velazquez we use the word "Europe".
I have a strong respect for Catalan nationalism but I don't think we have to support it in Wikipedia by using sentences such as "Catalan artist" without making explicit that all Catalans are Spanish as of today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 21 August 2006.
- People keep changing it. It should probably say (I'm nowiki'ing here to show where the links go) [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]]. By the way, Wikipedia also tends to identify cultural figures as "English", "Scottish", etc., not "British"; similar matter.
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- But there is no possible comparison between England or Scotland with Catalonia. They don´t share the same history. England and Scotland are countries inside another country and have also been countries for many centuries. Catalonia has never been a country. England and Scotland are different countries when they play soccer or rugby (not in the Olympic Games) but Catalonia has never played against another country in a official game. By the way, I agree with the definition as Spanish Catalan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .
- The issue is trickier for the Catalans than the Andaluzes, because "Spanish" in every sense is inclusive of Andalucía; [[Spain|Spanish]] is inclusive of the Catalans, but [[Spanish people||Spanish]] is not.
- Gaudí was about as emphatic a Catalan nationalist as they come: he usually refused to speak Spanish. As far as I know, none of the individuala you mention (except maybe Lorca) had a comparable relation to their Andaluz identity, but I'd be ready to stand corrected. It probably would be appropriate to mention Lorca being Andaluz more prominently in his article than we do, because he is an emphatically Andaluz cultural figure.
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- That is true. Most of the individuals I mentioned are not Andalusian nationalists. Not even Lorca or Alberti were neither Spanish nor Andalusian nationalists. But many of them had a prominent Andaluz identity comparable to any Catalan nationalist. You don´t have to be a nationalist to have a regional identity. But the point I want to emphasize is that I don´t think we should say "a Catalan or an Andalusian painter" for example, no matter if the individual did not consider himself Spanish. I think that we should say the nationality the individual has or had and then, later in a different paragraph, state their political or nationalistic identity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .
- By the way, not all Catalans are Spanish, even today: Narbonne, Perpignan, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
That is true. Thank you for the answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] Gaudi's Nationality
Antoni Guadi never felt spanish, he never spoke spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. Is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognited nation, (See Catalan Status of autonomy) legaly exist the Catalan nationality. Is like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.
- It is true that he never felt Spanish. But when he lived his passport said he was Spanish and his nationality was Spanish. Catalonia is not a country. The Catalan Status of Autonomy says it is a nation but it says that in the preface so it doesn´t have full legality. As far as I know it does not exist a country that is recognised in the United Nations and that is called Catalonia. When a catalan travels abroad he-she shows a Spanish passport, not a Catalan passport. When a catalan athlete goes to the Olympics he participates under the Spanish flag. etcetera. I´m not an anti-Catalan nationalism. I´m a liberal and I think Catalans may have the right to be considered a country. But as of today Catalonia is a region, comunidad autonoma, in Spain. And this is an encyclopedia and it should be objective instead of a place where political ideas are showed through.
That is why I said that first he should be considered as a Spanish Catalan artist and later, in a different paragraph-section, explain his political and nationalistic feelings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 25 August 2006.
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- I continue to think this should be [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]], but I don't think an edit war is a useful way to solve this, and it seems that every time I put that, someone reverts me withing 24 hours. Ruedasox, I take it you agree with me, but tell me if I'm wrong, since you are not explicit about that. Would others please weigh in, here, on the talk page, rather than by edit warring? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 19:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Jmabel, I totally agree with you. An edit war will only bring bad consequences to the wikipedia. If we have a discussion in this section where everybody explain their points of view will help the good development of the encyclopedia rather than if everybody comes and changes the words they don't like and go away. - User:ruedasox
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I agree with Jmabel and the unsigned comment above. Catalan nationalism played an important part in Gaudí's life. But Catalonia was a part of Spain, Gaudí was a citizen of Spain, he carried a Spanish passport, he paid taxes to the Spanish authorities, etcetera. He was a Spaniard, and therefore should be referred to as such, alongside Catalonia. I second Jmabel's proposal for referring to Gaudí as a [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]] architect. Aecis Appleknocker Flophouse 13:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- I wouldn't use Spaniard (which is generally a designation of ethnicity, and a bit archaic). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Weel, Catalonia is not a state. That's true, but is a Nation. And as I said in my previous comment, if you check the Dalai Lama article here in wikipedia, you can't read he is Chinese, because is not, even if Tibet is (legally) a part of China. Right? Using the same rule, Why don't you go there and change it, writting The Dalai Lama was a Chinese spirtual leader from a chinese region? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.107.247 (talk • contribs) 20 September 2006.
- Because the Dalai Lama's situation as an exile makes the situation a bit different. I'm not sure what his actual citizenship is; if you happen to know, it should probably be in the article. He certainly does not have a PRC passport. Perhaps he travels on papers from the (unrecognized) Tibetan government in exile? - Jmabel | Talk 04:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- This sounds like a political debate. It is true that Gaudi was Catalan. It is true that Gaudi was Spanish (I don't know his "feelings" like others on this forum apparently do). It is true that Gaudi was European. To refer to him as any of these would not be incorrect. My impression is that referring to him as Spanish offends some nationalists, however it doesn't make it incorrect. Furthermore, I agree that he had great pride in his culture (he was actually thrown in jail once for refusing to speak Castillian), however I am unaware of him not recognizing that his culture was one of many within Spain. In fact he had ties to two of the most powerful families in Spain, the Lopez, and the Guell (the latter being Catalan, of course). I believe he was also a monarchist, implying that he had respect for the Spanish state. The political debate should be taken elsewhere, and I believe that reference to him as either Catalan, Spanish, or both should no longer be debated. 130.221.105.69 17:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto
- On a similar note... I believe the following statement is too strong and/or not correct "Gaudí, among others, promoted the Catalan nationalist movement by incorporating elements of Catalan culture in his designs." There's no question he incorporated Catalan culture into his designs (the red and gold stripes atop the spire of Bellesguard, the many references to St. George, among many others), however I don't think he was a nationalist per se. The word nationalist to me implies something stronger than pride in your culture, it implies a political message. I have never found any evidence that he was anything other than proud of his heritage. I think the statement should be changed to something like "Gaudi incorporated elements of Catalan culture in his designs (examples)" then a statement could be made about how these designs might be an inspiration to nationalists. 130.221.105.69 18:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto
[edit] Number of siblings
I am aware of Gaudi having had only one sibling, Francisco, d. 1876, yet the article implies he had 4 siblings. Anybody know for sure? 69.167.58.163 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Alberto
- The cited source, [6], says (this is verbatim): "Antoni, the couple's fifth child, was to live the longest. His siblings included sisters Rosa (May 5, 1844-1879), who married and had a daughter, Rosa Egea Gaudí, and Maria (June27, 1845-January 10 1850); and brothers Francesc (March 26, 1848-April 20, 1850) and Francesc (May 27, 1851-1876), who earned a Medical degree, but never practiced." - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
