Talk:Anti-gravity

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Contents

[edit] Moved from article page

I cut three rather obscure claims from the article, see below for rationale. --Pjacobi 20:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-gravity in the context of non-mainstream physics

In the 1970s, an American scientist proposed using superfluid helium in a toroidal vessel to create gravity control.

Robert Distinti, an American engineer, has derived a simple formula that predicts anti-gravity effects when opposite charges are brought close enough. For macroscopic effects, this requires large charges and microscopic distances, but provides a theoretical explanation for the charged capacitor experiments.

In June 2005 F.S. Felber released a paper claiming that when a mass moves faster than 1 / \sqrt{3} of the speed of light, general relativity predicts that a moving mass emits a beam of repulsive gravity both forward, and more weakly to the rear of the mass. This repulsive effect could easily be used to accelerate other masses, and the tidal forces are said to be weak. As of February 2006, the paper is still in review.

Several historical oversights need to be rectified in this section.Tcisco 06:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

It's easy to setup a web page stating rather bold claims about anti-gravity. It even was, and mostly still is, easy to inject such papers into preprint system. But unless these claims lead either to extraordinary public attention or to reactions from scientists, that's far below the threshold for including in an encyclopedia. IMHO and YMMV. --Pjacobi 20:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The Distinti website is a cranky new electromagnetism type website, apparently with an anti-gravity or electric gravity [sic] tinge. A few quotes tell the tale:
  • The new model of electromagnetic induction is claimed as superior to Faraday's law in every respect. It predicts things that Faraday can not.
  • Introducing for license or sale a revolutionary new advancement in the design and function of...
  • The World Leader in Electromagnetic Physics. By Robert J Distinti BS EE
  • I've gone back to school to get my graduate degree -- thesis will be on New Electromagnetism.
Good luck, Robert :-/ As for the eprint, Felber appears to be blissfully unaware of the extensive literature on ultraboosts and has neglected to discuss the possibility that he has confused coordinate effects with physical effects, as indeed appears to be the case. IMHO, this has gotten much more press than it deserves, apparently because someone has been greatly overstating Felber's alleged achievements in various mass media venues, including the Wikipedia.---CH 22:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Any relevance?

"Scientists funded by the European Space Agency have measured the gravitational equivalent of a magnetic field for the first time in a laboratory. Under certain special conditions the effect is much larger than expected from general relativity and could help physicists to make a significant step towards the long-sought-after quantum theory of gravity."

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM0L6OVGJE_index_0.html

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf

There appear to be superficial similarities to Podkletnov's work. I do not have the knowledge to say whether this is at all interesting, related, or just another instance of bogus and/or pseudo- science

There is, however, a nice paragraph referring to Podkletnov's claims in the pdf:

"The reported results are very different from previous claims in the literature from Podkletnov claiming gravitational shielding effects above rotating superconductors 21,22 . As we have not observed any change in the vertical sensors (± 5 µg) above any superconductors during their phase transition and during rotation, our results even put new limits on any possible shielding effects (effect must be < 0.0005% compared to claims of up to 2% of weight change for samples above a rotating superconductor)."

WLD 17:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Im afraid its not relevant, its refering to the gravitomagnetic force. - Zephyris Talk 12:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Destructive attitude of Wikipedians

Everyone should be able to participate in the debate. However, now the committed members express rejective, intolerant and malicious attitude towards some writers. They do not explain their point of view purely concentrating on the issues, but also imply that some people should not bother them with certain point of views. The critic of this page is a good example of this. Objectively, I'm not taking a position towards the claims of the counter arguments. I'm just pointing out the offensive style of the committed judges of the Wikipedia. You should also explain why you repeatedly erase links from that page. I have also copied my critisism to my user page of Improvements to Wikipedia

(unsigned comment by User:Teemu Ruskeepää)

Come again? What authors? What "judges"? What page? What links? ---CH 03:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] note for editors:Do not delete under pretenses of "Pseudoscience"

It must be at least docuented(what claims are), just tag it with pseudoscience or/and explanation of maintsream physics why it doesn't work. Deleting information is wrong.If we allow only right information on wiki, which must be documented by all academic sources,it will be a desert. A bunch of book summaries.This isn't wiki purpose,providing maximum knowledge on subject.Antigravity is pseudoscience(or at best fringe science) subject.Just talk about it like it is.NPOV isn't deleting Pseudoscience its allowing to present any information in NEUTRAL Manner.Just keep pseudosciece notices.

84.94.137.17 (talk • contribs) (aka the cable.012.net.il anon)

First, please consider registering and in any case sign your contribs. Second, current violations of WP:NPOV include several claims of form
according to [publication], blah blah blah
instead of
according to [[Robert Park]], a professor of [[Physics]] at the [[University of Maryland]] who writes a regular column on fringe science at [link to the website in question], {{quotation|whatever he said|Robert Park, [[Nature (journal)|Nature]] date}}.
See the difference? My point is that we need to provide enough information for the reader to figure out that a claim appearing on Robert Distinti's website does not carry the same weight as Prof. Park's comments in Nature. Third, the current version is absurdly slanted toward promotion of dubious fringe ideas in various ways, and this must be addressed.---CH 23:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

American Antigraverty is quite important in the schintific anti-graverty\alternitive energy scine, could we mention them more than just once at the bottem of the page?

[edit] American Antigraverty

American Antigraverty is quite an important anti-graverty\alternitive energy site, could we mention them more than just once at the bottem of the page? Alan2here 20:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antigravity

Antigravity, antigravity,

The bigest scientific and non-scientific paradox and problem in the last several centuries. Serious and honest scientist believe it is nosence. Nobody is capable to see that antigravity was discovered by Newton.

It is not an error. I am not talking about gravity, than rather about so called antigravity.

See data: http://www.geocities.com/agravity/ANTIGRAVITY.htm

Newton have seen that pendulum watches are going slower closer to the equator, and stated: it is caused by force arising from Earths rotation. This force decreases value of gravitational accveleration, and because of it the watches are going slower. Newton calculated value of that force, i.e. decreasing of gravity to cca 0,034m/sec2. Several centuries latter it was confirmed by gravimetrical meassurements. At the equator, bodies lose 0,34% of its weight. At the geo. lat. 45 degree only 0,17%.

The force decreasing the weight of bodies, i.e. gravitational force always has the same line and opposite direction of gravity.

But that force is not antigravity, than rather gravifugal force. This force is arising in all cases in which gravity has a function of centripetal force. In those cases I am using the term gravipetal force. Gravipetal and gravifugal - instead of too general: centripetal and centrifugal.

I believe so called and desired antigravity does not exist. Nature replaced it by gravifugal force. At the velocity 7,9km/sec. value of gravifugal force equals to that of gravity, i.e. gravipetal force, bodies totaly lose the weight and astronauts are levitating in their space-ships. By gravifugal force we are capable to do all we believed would be possible to do by so called antigravity. Why nobody can see it?

Instead of to draw the attention to that fact, many scientist and no-scientist try to discover something that was discovered long, long time ago, confirmed by numerous gravimetrical meassurements and astronautical experience.

For more see also http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Levitation_and_antigravity

This theory, although plausible, is incorrect. The fault is in the extrapolation from a pendulum to a free disk - the supporting string of the pendulum is the route by which the force due to gravity is counteracted, the free disk does not have this connection and so the gravitational force is not counteracted. - Zephyris Talk 00:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{totallydisputed}}

I've upgraded the tag from {{POV}} to {{totallydisputed}}.

Let me first cite the reason of the {{POV}}-tagger (I didn't search far enough into the history to find did it):

in first half, the description of alleged "mainstream viewpoint" on "anti-gravity" are mischaracterized (please see talk page); in second half, unverified "electrogravity" claims are presented as verifiable fact

IMHO it's about the same only more so after the recent additions.

Einsteins GTR is well established and makes it crystal clear, that no gravity shielding or anti-gravity can be done. So you first have to disprove it. No serious attempts at disproving have been seen for decades.

Pjacobi 19:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Edits

Thank you for the welcome and quick response. I have no problems with abstaining from incorporating UFO articles with this section. I removed the corresponding citations from the list of references after discovering your deletions. My goal was to provide a wealth of literature that evinces the existence of a nation-wide effort to develop gravity control propulsion that had continued for at least eleven years. The articles, books, and newspapers were free of retractions and denials. And, there were no indications of failure. It would not have taken eleven years to discover shortcomings in the gravitic segment of the Biefeld-Brown Effect. But, it would have taken eleven or more years to develop substances with high dielectric constants and/or invent high voltage, light-weight, power supplies. The engineers' success would not have necessitated flight for all. "G-cars" may be very expensive. If the flight characteristics of "G-cars" approximated those of documented UFO incidents, the Department of Defense would use them for covert operations and keep them from the public for as long as possible.

216.125.49.252 19:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you plugged in numbers into both Musha's and Ivanov's equations. Ivanov seems to require higher potential differences to attain the same accelerations as Musha's equation. An interesting shortcoming of both expressions is their enability to account for the high correlations with lunar phases that were reported by Thomas Townsend Brown and Takaaki Musha. Tcisco 07:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Error

"Gravity is a force that pulls the 4 or 8 dimensions together." This quote is presented in the context of general relativity. First, forces aren't really defined in GR in the conventional sense, and as a theory of gravity (unlike Newtonian gravity), GR doesn't have gravity acting as force. Rather, it changes the geometry of the spacetime, and an object simply continues to move on the geodesic. Secondly, the idea of gravity being a force holding together "4 or 8 dimensions" has no basis in classical GR or even orthodox quantum theories of gravity (M-theory or even quantum loop). This claim is just rubbish.

If several scientific journals give consideration and space to antigravity (and they do), Wikipedia should as well.

[edit] Pseudoscience Is Still Knowledge

No one should remove information from Wikipedia simply because they do not believe it is scientific. An Encyclopedia is not intended to be scientific, but to be a reference of human knowledge, which may vary in scope far beyond scientific topics to such subjects as philosophy, religion, or so called "psuedoscience." Moreover, Wikipedia should give all views equal measure, even if a view is unpopular. Simply because most physicists believe Anti-Gravity to be a load of crap doesn't mean it's a fact. Theories aren't facts, period. They are theories. Contemporary science has never claimed to answer all questions or to present its theories as facts, but rather to find rational explanations based on prior knowledge, and for all we know that prior knowledge isn't even correct; see Brain in a Jar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.221.247.179 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Gary Stephenson: Considerable Works on Anti Gravity

Last night , I saw a documentry on 'abduction by aliens' on Discovery Channel in which there was a small description on the success in lifting a body with electromagnetic high voltage fields. The name of the scientist was Gary Stephenson. I found only this [[1] about it and a file [2] that explains it. 21st CenturyDRAGON 09:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

This article would be improved dramatically if one were to use the standard footnote referencing system. There are too many references that do not appear in the text, and I suggest adding a section called "cited references" and "further reading." As an innocent bystander, it appears as if a "proponent" of antigrav has just adding tons of references (many irrelevant) in order to quiet and/or confuse the other editors who are tying to make this a balanced and factual article.

Secondly, it would go a long ways toward improving NPOV if this article were to source (primarily) secondary sources. The majority of references are to primary sources or tertiary sources (such as news articles), and this makes it appear as if this topic is either original research, biassed. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia (i.e., a tertiary source), and as such, it should be based primarily on secondary sources. Lunokhod 18:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The open invitation to contribute by Wikipedia did not stipulate the incorporation of footnotes. Footnotes had not appeared in this article prior to my initial contributions. I simply maintained citation consistancy.

The invitation by Wikipedia to contribute had emphasized the use of references with the contributions. That was done. If they had been inspected, instead of being rejected for stereotypic rationale, you would have discovered an area of history that had been neglected. The references are numerous because the endeavor had been pursued with vigor.

None of the reference were irrelevant. They evinced a documented area of history that has been overlooked. Reports of meteors, tornadoes, ball lightning, transient lunar phenomenon, and Hessdalen phenomenon had been mocked by the scientific community. But, diligent skepticism manifested the reality of those phenomena. The diversity and quality of the references offset potential biases.

Some of your edits to the article evince a fascinating lack of knowledge about the history of general relativity. For example, your deletion of the statement that many Gravity Research Foundation essays have become papers in peer reviewed journals was irresponsible. Robert L. Forward was not the only essay winner to publish. The International Journal of Modern Physics D has featured selected papers from the Gravity Research Foundation essay competition. If the essays had lacked value, they would not have been incorporated with the collections of the Neils Bohr Library (Center for History of Physics Newsletter, 34(2), 10). Early references to the involvement of the aerospace companies with the gravity research projects had acknowledged the support of the Gravity Research Foundation. The statement about its essays was a method of displaying the integrity of its contributions.

With respect to neutrality, it should be noted that no claim to success or failure of those projects was cited in this article. Statements by whistleblowers proceeded and followed the period of open publicity about the gravity control propulsion projects. References to those writings were not needed to evince the existence of the movement.

I think you are attributing someone else's actions to me (in part). I haven't deleted any references, I am just in the process of turning them into standard hyperlinked footnote form (we could use hyperlinked harvard referencing if you prefer). As for the sententce I deleted that is mentioned above, I don't think that it is necessary to say that GFR essays have become peer-reviewed articles. If there is reason to cite these articles, then do so! Lunokhod 10:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Tcisco 07:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Some have mocked the merits of the Gravity Research Foundation because its early years had been dedicated to searching for materials and theories that yielded shielding, insulation; and/or heat extraction from gravity. The incorporation of some of the Foundation essays in a peer reviewed journal and the achievements attained by some of the essay authors were used to attest to the academic integrity of the organization. Those attributes have been presented at physics history conferences. Tcisco 20:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
With respect to reference classifications, I can reorganize my segment of the contribution to manifest distinctions between the primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. And, it can be lengthened to evince neutrality by citing the euphoric and negative assessments of the gravity control propulsion projects. My initial goal had been to insert a brief report. Tcisco 20:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral point of view

There are many sentences in the text such as

Heim’s work had caused considerable excitement.
The notable paper on the Roy Kerr metric by Boyer and Lindquist (1967) was an example of one of the many ARL sponsored articles.
Most writers praised the effort.

In my opinion, these "factoids" should be removed for several reasons. First, they are not cited, so I have no idea as to whether they are true or not. Second, they are subjective: What is "notable"? Third, they are irrelevant for an encyclopedic article. But forth, and most importantly, these give the appearance that the text is not neutral: Events are placed in a positive or negative light, and in the case of this article, it is almost always in favor of anti-gravity being a valid concept worth studying. There are no counter examples, such as "While this publication generated considerable interest by X and Y, it was widely ignored by the physics community." Lunokhod 20:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of my contributions to this article was to evince the existence of an extensive gravity control propulsion research movement that had transpired decades before the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project. References that were available at the public libraries and various web sites were used for that purpose.

The excitement Heim had caused during the fifties and sixties was mentioned in the writings by Dröscher and Häuser (2002), von Ludwiger (2001), Sigma (1966), Talbert (1955a,d), and Weyl (1957, 1959b).

I do not know the strength of your background in general relativity, but the nineteen ARL Technical Reports had been written by P. Jordan, W. Kundt, J. Erhlers, P. Bergmann, A. Schild, R. Arnowit, P. Havas, H. Bondi, V. H'lavaty, R. Schiller, E. T. Newman, A. I. Janis, J. N. Goldberg, W. M. Fairbanks, W. O. Hamilton, M. Carmeli, and S. Malin. Over sixty papers sponsored by ARL were published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Physical Review, Jounral of Mathematical Physics, Physical Review Letters, Physical Review D, Review of Modern Physics, General Relativity and Gravitation, International Journal of Theorectical Physics, and Nuovo Cimento B. Explicit citation of all these references in an encyclopedia article is inappropriate. The example I gave was one that would have been recognized by graduate students in theoretical physics. I was exposed to those articles through an issue of Sky & Telescope. Papers in various peer reviewed works have acknowledged the contributions of the Department of Defense to the resurgence of general relativity. The death of many research projects beyond physics was caused by the amendement to the Defense Procurment Act (known as the Mansfeild Amendment). This is common knowledge in several scientific circles.

And, the gravity control propulsion projects did receive praise and criticism. Sir Arthur C. Clarke (1957), Nick Cook (2001), Intel (1956), Mallan (1958, 1959, 1961), Stine (1957), and Talbert (1955a,b,c,d,e,f) were among those who rendered praise. Cleaver (1957a,b), Stambler (1957), and Weyl (1957, 1959b) levelled harsh criticism against the movement.

The contribution was neutral and stemmed directly from an area of history that had been overlooked.

Tcisco 05:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, saying that the project received "praise" is not neutral, unless this was mentioned in a notable publication (one sentence in an article would probably not be good enough). I also think that the excitement would have to be shared by a large portion of the physics community, and not just a select subset of experts, in order to be worthy for an encyclopedic article. Perhaps this was the case. As written, however, these statements appear biassed. Lunokhod 10:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The excitement was among the executives of the aerospace community and trustees of the Gravity Research Foundation. That excitement was described in terms of quotations from various industry leaders that appeared in prominent newspapers (Talbert), trade magazines (Cleaver, Cook, Intel, Mallan, and Stine), and a reputable popular magazine (Clarke). Other writers have used the term euphoric to describe the quotes of those executives and the tone of those articles. Cleaver's articles were very skeptical of the level of excitement he had encountered and expressed great doubt in the ability of those projects to cause a discovery that would yield a breakthrough in the theory of gravitation. Weyl was upset with the use of terminology that had appeared in the articles. The literature yields negligible evidence of awareness by the physics community. I have yet to see a single, peer reviewed physics journal that explicitly refers to the gravity control propulsion projects. A Science Digest article, from the mid-1960's, alluded to it. Tcisco 19:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to following the guidlines expounded in WP:FRINGE for this article. In particular, I think that this article is biased because it is trying to make this line of research sound more notable than it actually is (I could care less as to whether anti-grav is theoretically valid or not). I don't think that this deserves deletion based on non-notability grounds, but we should try to present the material in a balanced fashion. In my opinion, a biassed account of this reseach will only help to alienate the anti-grav community from the "mainstream" physics community. Lunokhod 20:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The “Gravity Control Propulsion” section of this article does not violate the tenants of WP:FRINGE. Note that the "Gravity Control Propusion" section did not promote any theory of physics. Responses to Burkhard Heim's presentations were cited. There were several references with paragraphs of praise and a smaller number with paragraphs of criticism of the American gravity control projects. But, both the proponents and apponents had expressed faith in Heim's ideas - they may have disputed the value of America's gravity endeavor, but both had been impressed with Heim. Referring to the published conclusions about Heim did not violate Wikipedia's NPOV standard. The "Gravity Control Propulsion" section conveyed the notability that had been assigned by the editors of reputable publications that had served a major percentage of the United States population. Please note the names of newspapers, technical journals, and popular magazines given in the list of references - they were respected and had served several thousand readers. According to the media, the gravity control propulsion projects had received political, defense, financial, and academic support in the absence of any known theoretical breakthroughs, discoveries, and/or inventions! The literature, although from very reputable publishers, resembled hype that, at best, was based on science fiction. British articles stated that point of view with near disdain. The "Gravity Control Propulsion" section of the article complies with NPOV and News values standards of Wikipedia. Tcisco 19:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I read somewhere that more money was spent on antigravity research than on conventional airplane research during this period. If that's true than this is definitely notable. people who have objections to the pov are really objecting to the facts that make anti-gravity research seem reasonable. Until science can explain gravity, there is no good reason to dismiss anti-gravity out of hand. Puddytang 22:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The organizations and personalities described in the references were real. Burkhard Heim did perform documented theoretical work on force field propulsion; the Gravity Research Foundation was committed to nurturing non-propulsion, anti-gravity research prior to Roger Babson's death; Mallan's interview of Trimble about the rationale for creating the Research Institute of Advance Study has not been retracted; widely circulated media carried statements by theoretical physicists emphasizing the need to develop a unified field theory before pursuing gravity control propulsion research; and the numerous writings produced by the ARL of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base were consistent with their recommendations. The papers and commemorative gravity stone monuments corroborated the gravity control propulsion project stories that had appeared for a period of eleven years in the widely distributed, very reputable, American and British, publications. All of that activity contributed to the resurgence of general relativity. Tcisco 08:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian Scientist

There is an article somewhere on wikipedia about a russian scientist who made outrageous gravity-shielding claims, but I can't remember his name. Puddytang 22:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to Dr. Eugene Podkletnov. His serrendipitous discovery and observations were recorded in the prestigious peer-reviewed journal Physica C. Dr. Giovanni Modanese, a Von Humboldt Fellow at the Max-Planck-Institut für Physik, responded in Europhysics Letters by showing the shielding-like phenomena had no explanation in the standard gravity theories except in the non-perturbative Euclidean quantum theory. Dr. Unnikrishnan (1966) had argued the shape of the region encompassing the measured weight reductions could not be attributed to gravity shielding phenomenon. Subsequent reports by Podkletnov and Modanese were about the generation of an impulse beam of gravity-like force. Some of the disputes in this area have stemmed from failures to replicate Podkletnov's experiments.
  • Unnikrishnan, C. S. (1966). Does a superconductor shield gravity? Physica C, 266, 133-137.
Tcisco 07:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

ANTI GRAV IN FICTION

It should be added to far more, star wars? star trek? The Matrix, the list is nearly endless, at least offer relevant links to machines of the sci-fi genre that have been conceived as a direct result of these theory's of anti grav devices.

[edit] Split into two or three articles?

Good lord, this article is chock full to the brim with pseudo-science, pseudo-history, and conspiracy theory "supressed science" claims! Ever been to a UFO convention? There are always guys selling books or plans for their "anti-gravity" device that was (1) suppressed by the government/industry/aliens/men-in-black/whoever, (2) was lost during testing and cannot be replicated without more money, or (3) requires exotic materials (element 116, for example) that are nearly impossible to obtain. See for example David Hamel or the Philadelphia Experiment But the stories all disagree as to how the "anti-gravity" works!

I saw a nice article on anti-gravity in a science magazine (Discover, perhaps?) a year or two back, on serious scientific efforts to acheive anti-gravity. None of the efforts looked very promising, but the researchers were real honest-to-gosh scientists trying to push the boundaries of the possible. NONE of this real science is in this article!

I would propose splitting this into three articles, one called "Anti-Gravity" which would describe the phenomena as it appears in fiction and might appear in the real world. From this link to two new articles, titled, "Mainstream Anti-Gravity Research" (a very short article) and "Non-Mainstream Anti-Gravity Research" (which would be most of the bulk from the current article).

I don't want school children coming to this page and believing that mainstream scientists really think most of this stuff is true, or that mainstream historians believe that the supposed history of anti-gravity research is undisputed. The article states as fact that numerous successful anti-gravity experiments have been performed, which is absolutely NOT an undisputed claim. Farcast 22:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC) revised Farcast 22:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Much of this material was added recently by Tcisco (talk • contribs). I've given up on trying to maintain this article for the time being, though I'd support a split into "mainstream", "non-mainstream", and "historical" studies of antigravity (with Tcisco's pet project split off into yet another article off of the "historical" section, as it describes only one such effort). Here is the last version I was involved with. Consulting the history since then may also be useful (as I'm sure some of the edits made were valid). --Christopher Thomas 22:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes the article is a terrible state by now. Much to wordy an very unimportant things. I'm not sure that splitting would be that usefull. It may create a permanant reservation for the crackpot stuff.
What I like about Tcisco's addition is the information about some "research flurry" in the 50s and 60s. I can't check the sources he gives, but assuming good faith I hope it is not all a carefully crafted hoax.
Of course I don't like the parts trying to suggest, that these activities succeeded but their results are kept secret by the usual suspects.
And all this modern crackpot research (space-mixing and the like§ is just non-notable pseudoscience, with a possible investment scam thrown in.
Pjacobi 18:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that having cranky material grow in its own sub-article is preferable to having the entire anti-gravity article being dominated by cranky additions. Regarding the historical additions, while I agree that adding information about the government projects is extremely useful, I think it's vital to check the references, as it'll be a magnet for conspiracy theories. --Christopher Thomas 06:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The material is fringe, neither false nor cranky. You have got to check on some of the references I have cited. They are obtainable. The newspaper article by Ansel Talbert is on the Internet and can be acquired through the libraries. I did not trust the Internet copy. My first copies of Talbert's series of article were obtained by the library in my suburb. The copies they obtained came from the University of Arkansas. I had to pay only six dollars for the first article in the series published by the New York Herald Tribune: a reputable secondary source. Another reputable secondary source with a comprehensive skeptical position was A. V. Cleaver's article in the Journal of British Interplanetary Society. Neither Talbert's nor Cleaver's articles claimed a breakthrough, they simply documented the early stages of an attempt to develop some sort of gravity control propulsion system. That historical fact may have been used as the foundation for various conpiracy theories, but its use, or misuse, does not alter its peculiar reality.
The historical section of this article does not list numerous successes. An unsubstantiated breakthrough was announced in the July 11, 1960 issue of Missiles and Rockets. I may have to go return to the library during a vacation day to search for an erratum. With respect to Thomas Townsend Brown's gravitator, the article cites the reports of successful replications by two Japanese and one Canadian team of experimenters and the theoretical discoveries of Boyko Ivanov. I have yet to encounter any rebuttals to their works. Other groups should try to replicate Musha's tests and Ivanov's analyses.
Keyhoe's articles may seem to be cranky, but Weyl's and Goldberg's papers can serve as a strong form of evidence for his position. A deduction that can be made from a careful study of the references is that the early pursuit of the gravity shielding portion of anti-gravity rapidly declined. Attempts to connect quantum mechanics with general relativity for the development of gravity control propulsion seemed to have received the highest priorities and funding. This transition in priority may have caused Babson to create grants for colleges that were willing to display his gravity stone monuments.
Reorganizing the material into two or three separate articles is a good idea. Gravity shielding and gravity control are distinctive components of anti-gravity that have different and extensive histories. Tcisco 03:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Jim Nobody

As a humble, non-academic I found the article interesting. Some of the comments remind me of when it was said "man will never fly", or that "an electic starter motor (for a car) was beyong the realm of electric engineering". Who knows what our decendants will have accomplished 500 years from now? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.207.40.213 (talk • contribs) on 16:40, 5 April 2007.

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