Talk:Anti-Turkism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Turkism article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list for Anti-Turkism:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

Contents 1 POV 2 Reason 3 Anti-Turkism today 4 More anti-Turkism 5 Factual accuracy 6 Dictionary definitions 7 Unnecessary content

[edit] POV

I apologize for tagging the article heavily. I understand that it is mainly an initial draft by a single person, who has no obligation to cover everything at once, but the article concentrates mainly on modern topics.

• This article appears to be a long list of anti-Turkish insults, and lacks reasoning. The article when re-written must not provide any justification for such insults. I agree that anti-semitism is different than most forms of racism, but Turcophobia has been quite prevalent in Western media recently. Tauphon 11:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

• It fails to trace really deep roots of anti-Turkism, to the times when the words like "mamluk" "bashibazouk", "arnaut", "janissary" filled people with dread.
• The second item missed is Turkish Gastarbeiter not very much liked in Germany.
• Third, the two-pronged Armenian Genocide issue: both as the base of Armenian anti-Turkism and as the base of accusations in anti-Turkism.

I am sure in time other editors will fill these and other gaps without much political quarrel. Inshallah. Mukadderat 01:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• This article doesn't seem to say much of anything. After reading it, I'm not sure if Anti-Turkism does or doesn't exist, or even what it is. If this is a legitimate subject for an article, then this needs to be rewritten and restructured.

• Suggesting that people who are or have historically been repressed by Turkey are just "anti Turkish" is demeaning to those people.

• The article seems to suggest that any resentment or negative feeling towards the nation of Turkey or any specific people thereof is Anti-Turkish. One can't attribute every negative opinion to anti-x.

• The suggestion that Anti-Turkism has any parrallels to anti-semitism is also ridiculous. The

• The article is written without nutrality, and as the author's comments above indicate, and lack objectivity.

• The issue does not discuss the Cyprus issue, or the question of Turkey's entrance into the EU

I have added considerably to this article however I am disputing the General Information section for the following reasons:

• It reflects the views of whoever wrote it.
• I believe that yes some Anti-Turkism sentiments are misconstructions.
• However I do believe that some people actually do believe hate all things Turkish.
• I do believe that Anti-Turkism does have strong racial reasoning behind it. I have read and heard so many people call the Turks "Mongols" or Mongoloid, etc... 86.1.80.37 18:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason

I deleted the "What is Anti-Turkish?" section because it seemed rather unencyclopedic, especially the list of "clues". Suppose a news source criticizes both the PKK and the Turkish Army for human rights violations. Are they considered anti-Turkish because they try to provide both sides of an issue? Also the section was unsourced. —Khoikhoi 18:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Kholkhoi I think it was just copied from a similar section from the Anti-Hellenism article. 86.1.80.37 18:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see now. —Khoikhoi 18:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Turkism today

Perhaps a section about this could be added. In the Netherlands for example, the term "Turk" as a degoratory term is used to say someone is "stupid". I believe the same thing is true in Russian. It's unfortunate, but it's true that this kind of racism happens. —Khoikhoi 18:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Really I didnt know about the use of the word Turk to denote "stupid" in the Netherlands and Russia. However I have heard it is used in Iran as a degoratory term. 86.1.80.37 18:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The Iranian deputy interior minister for security affairs, Ali Asghar Ahmadi, admitted that the demonstrations in Tabriz were far more than a mere protest against a newspaper insult. In fact, there is much resentment in Iranian Azerbaijan about the region’s economic and social difficulties. That resentment is fed by the attitudes of ethnic Persians toward ethnic Azeris—an attitude well captured in the phrase "Torki khar" (Turkish donkey), used by Persians in reference to Azeris, whom they regard as the "muscle" of the Iranian economy to be dominated by Persian "brains". [1]

Approximately 50% of (Dutch) Turks and (Dutch) Moroccans indicate that they have been personally confronted with discrimination in the past year. This means that Turks and Moroccans regularly face the problem of discrimination, directed not only towards themselves, but also towards persons in their immediate social environment. [2] 80.5.34.222 14:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC) - Hey why has my I.P changed?

I think this picture should be uploaded The Caption states: 'A dispute arose as to which of the two - a Turk or a goat - smelt the worse. An enquiry was held - (1) The goat was brought in and the President fainted; (2) The Turk was brought in and the goat fainted. The enquiry was closed. [3]

[Image:http://www.zaman.com/2006/07/19/die_welt_b.jpg Die Welt Publishes Anti-Turkish News Article] The newspaper, accusing German citizen Turks of being responsible for the increasing crime rate in Germany, overlooked the streets over flowing with Turks waving the German flag. The newspaper implied instead that the country was under the sovereignty of Muslim Turks, publishing a photograph with the Turkish flag and Islamic crescent seen over the German Parliamentary building. The news headlined, "Tücken der Zuwanderung" "The Tricks of Emigration" is just one letter different from the expression "Türken der Zuwanderung" which means, "The Turks of Emigration." Publishing the "Turk/Trick" concept together with the provocative photo is intended to foment the fear of Germany’s becoming "Turkicized". [4] --80.5.34.222 18:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

“The American Islam expert Bernard Lewis has said that Europe will be Islamic at the end of this century,” he said.

“I do not know if this is right, or whether it will be at that speed, but if he is right, the liberation of Vienna in 1683 would have been in vain.” Frits Bolkestein 80.5.34.222 19:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More anti-Turkism

Bull Of The Convocation of the Holy Ecumenical Council of Trent. by Pope Paul III

[...]

Whilst we desired the commonwealth to be safe and protected against the arms and insidious designs of the infidels, yet, because of our transgressions and the guilt of us all, indeed, because of the wrath of God hanging over us by reason of our sins, Rhodes had been lost, Hungary ravaged, war by land and sea intended and planned against Italy, and against Austria and Illyria, since the Turk, our godless and ruthless enemy, was never at rest and looked upon our mutual enmities and dissensions as his fitting opportunity to carry out his designs with success.

[...]

In the meantime, the Turk, our cruel and everlasting enemy, having attacked Italy with a powerful fleet, captured, sacked and ravaged several cities on the shores of Apulia and carried off as booty the inhabitants, while we, in the greatest fear and general danger, were occupied in fortifying our shores and in furnishing assistance to the nearest neighboring localities.

[edit] Factual accuracy

The factual accuracy could only be disputed by the turks--Slogankid 11:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I get the impression that you don't think highly of the opinions "the turks." AverageTurkishJoe 07:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionary definitions

Those dictionary definitions seem odd - I went to the PDF and checked the dictionaries listed, and none of them have the anti-Turkish definitions that are stated in the PDF. For example, Merriam-Webster and Oxford both have normal, neutral definitions. I'm going to remove that reference, as the PDF doesn't say when the dictionary was looked at. --Awiseman 15:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unnecessary content

"I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk" I don't think this is worth adding to the page. Football fanatics insult everything about the opponent team. Have you ever been to an international match in Turkey? There are tons of incidents way more worse than this. Also this sentence is mainly insulting Pakis rather than Turks. They're just trying to make Turks annoyed.

Is this an important example for Anti-Turkism ? No, I don't think so.

I am Greek and I would like to clarify something about the Turkish nationality. During the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, and Serbia) and Cyprus many people were forced or just made to become Muslims. These people were Minor Asians, Hellenes (the nation that is not correctly called by the western Europeans Greeks, Grecs, Griechen etc.) , Slavs (Bosnians), Bulgarians, Albanians (the tribe of the Ghegs) etc. When somebody referred to a Christian, he called him “Romios” or “Roum”. Romios comes from the greek word “Romaios” which means Roman (The Roman Empire existed till 1453, when the Turks entered Constantinople) . On the other hand, when somebody referred to a muslim, he called him “Turk”, no matter which his nationality was. So there are no legal citizens in Cyprus that are actually Turks. There are just muslim Cypriots, who are occupied by Turkish troops and an illegal government. The state of Cyprus is one and it should be governed by the Cypriots (Christians and Muslims). As far as the anti-turkism is concerned, I think that, if the Turkish government could act democratically without the interference of the Turkish army, things would be better. Anti-turkism is the result of the actions of the Turkish state, which are against their neighbors and the minorities in turkey.

Please only post messages that are about improving this article, not about your personal opinions. Such messages do not serve Wikipedia, and only contribute to the creation of a hostile working environnement. Any such irrelevant banter can be moved to the talk pages of articles where they might be of more use to Wikipedia. Thank you. Baristarim 20:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that what the guy is trying to say is that anti-turkism today is based rather on the political practices of the modern turkish state than on racial preconceptions, e.g. the ethnic inferiority of Turks. It's worth pointing out that there is a difference between attacking someone who is a moslem citizen of the Ottoman Empire (of Arabic, Albanian, Bosnian, Greek, Russian or even Italian origin)and a citizen of modern-day Turkey.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.1.249.248 (talk • contribs).

So what do you think about insults we see everyday like "barbarian, savage, bloodthirsty etc Turks" ? If you search the word Turk in various internet forums, you'll find out how people make racistic comments when it comes to Turks. US and Israel are always criticized like Turkey about their foreign policies but it's rare when you see comments like barbarian Americans, or barbarian Israelis/Jews. People generally criticize their policies based on their governments, not the people. But when it comes to Turks, you see comments insulting Turks. Turks are hated for various reasons, mainly for their history and current policies. And this is clearly anti-Turkism. You don't have to have a different skin color to face the Turkophobia.88.254.178.160 03:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)