Talk:Anti-Judaism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Where did this page go??? 2 Page protection and dispute resolution 3 Disambiguation of St. Paul 4 Mediation? 5 anti-Judaism and antisemitism and merge

[edit] Where did this page go???

Who (or what) gives people permission to move pages around without any form of discussion? Last time I checked someone (I believe it was HS) had proposed merging this with Antisemitism, but there weren't even any discussions for that. This article had been rightly called "Anti-Judaism" for as long as I can remember. What was the rationale behind moving it to Religious antisemitism? WP:POINT? ==Taxico 10:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT seems to be to base on a definition by one historian (namely Langmuir) and artificially split the content between several articles describing pretty much the same phenomenon, Judenhass. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 01:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Things are always more complicated once you introduce religious belief into the equation. If an angel appeared to me and convinced me, beyond a doubt, that tomorrow your house will catch on fire, for me to not warn you would clearly be anti-Humus from my point of view, though from your point of view, rousing you to run around and double check all your pilot lights would clearly be some form of harassment, so warning you would be anti-Humus. Damned if you do, damned if you don't; since no one really knows whether or not there's going to be a fire. Sometimes, like Meister Eckhart said, "the devils are really angels..." and probably vice versa. But I have ceased expecting any sort of talmudic dialogue here; go ahead, snipe away

. -- Kendrick7^talk 01:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this has been pointed out elsewhere, but a google search of "religious antisemitism" gets 1820 hits, whereas a Google search of "anti-Judaism" gets 140,000 hits. Why would this page simply redirect to the other? Also, there appears to be quite different material on each topic. I'm reinstating the page, please explain if you disagree.Mackan79 08:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

This page should be merged with religious antisemitism and the names changed to "anti-Judaism and religious antisemitism" because they are closely related (and some would argue), interchangable subjects. They shouldn't be separated into different articles but into subs of one article. Guy Montag 09:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to have two articles, and then perhaps a common section on their interaction? Judging by Google, "anti-Judaism" is about 70 times more common as a phrase, while on Google book search it comes up with 7 times as many hits. If anything, thus, it'd seem there should be an article on anti-Judaism, with a subsection on religious antisemitism and how they interact. This certainly could also be discussed prominently at the outset.

Certainly the issues are related, and some would argue they're interchangable, but several have also argued that they're not. Doesn't this risk POV, then, simply to combine them into the same subject? Google books gives me at least 5 books on anti-Judaism (word in title), while not turning up any books about "religious antisesmitism." That said, I can't see how this combination helps WP, or how Anti-Judaism gets no article except as related to religious antisemitism.

Mackan79 16:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If anti-Judaism is more prominent academic subject then it would make sense to merge religious antisemitism as a sub srticle within anti-Judaism. But there must be a historic relation from theological rivarly and antagonism that "evolves" (without using too determinist a language) into religious antisemitism. The article just wouldn't be complete without what many historians academics etc. conclude to be its end result.

Guy Montag 18:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

That was the status quo only a matter of weeks ago. Some editors seem to feel rather strongly that there must be an article about religious antisemitism, though I object to that all-encompassing definition that equates anti-Judaism to anti-Semitism. It has a real "hangman of history" feel to it. I have no interest in whitewashing how one has historically and repeatedly led to the other. But it's like the relationship between alcohol and cirrhosis. Drinking too much alchohol can, but doesn't have to, cause cirrhosis. Cirrhosis has other causes besides alchohol. Everyone knows cirhrosis is a bad thing; but various divisions in thought exist on the evils or benefits of alcohol. You wouldn't try to have one article entitled alcohol and cirrhosis though, and you definitely wouldn't have alcohol solely explained as a subtopic of cirrhosis. -- Kendrick7^talk 21:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC) and, as Jesus turned water into wine, there is even theological debate on the matter....

That's an awfully weak argument, Kendrick7, especially because there is an article called alcoholic liver disease and because religious anti-Semitism is only one of many articles about subtopics of anti-Semitism. Btw, there are many different kinds of cirrhosis as well, each with its own Wikipedia article. --GHcool 05:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I think the problem would be having alcoholic liver disease in place of both alcohol and cirrhosis. In any case, I've yet to see why the main article should be on "Religious Antisemitism," when much much more seems to have been written about "Anti-Judaism." Does anyone have an answer? Does anyone have a source on "Religious Antisemitism" as such? It seems to me from what Kendrick is saying that the siutation a few weeks ago made a lot more sense. Mackan79 17:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit that looking at other anti-Xism articles around the wikipedia aren't very illuminating, such as anti-Catholicism, anti-Communism, Anti-Protestantism, Anti-capitalism and anti-Irishism. Anti-Islam redirects to Islamophobia; can a person only be anti-Islam if they are afraid of Muslims? I doubt that just as much as claim by Humus above that anti-Judaism is only motivated by hatred of Jews (Judenhaas). On one end, I certainly think you can be anti-Communism without having some black hate in your heart for all communist people and likewise with anti-Capitalism; at the other extreme, it's hard to see how someone could subscribe to anti-Irishism without hating Irishpeople. For the most part, none of these articles cite their sources anyway. So this is all part of one big muddle. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I think the wider discussion has been underway at religious antisemitism. Mackan79 20:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page protection and dispute resolution

The page has been protected as a result of edit-warring between users. Please discuss the changes here and then request page unprotection, or contact me on my talk page when you have resolved the dispute. Regards, — Nearly Headless Nick 13:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation of St. Paul

If this page ever becomes unprotected, someone will need to disambiguate St. Paul to Paul of Tarsus. Planetneutral 03:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation?

As discussed at Talk:Religious antisemitism, I'm wondering whether we may need mediation in regard to the proper treatment of these two articles, to resolve the basic issues: 1. Are the subjects different? 2. Different enough for different articles? 3. If not, which is the appropriate title? Mackan79 15:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] anti-Judaism and antisemitism and merge

What exactly is the difference between these two topics?--Sefringle 05:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you the theological answer, as it's a rather essentially a matter of religious belief. Christians, in particular Catholics (the majority Christian faith), believe that salvation (i.e. you go to heaven when you die) for a given soul is entirely up to the Lord God. But as best we are able to understand, accepting that Jesus is the Son of God is generally essential for such salvation for those who are aware of Jesus's message. That position is, naturally, anti-Judaic, in that Christians, who believe in supersessionism, do not believe Judaism has the full understanding of truth which the Lord God has revealed. To insist that anyone who believes in this is an anti-semite is both insulting to this faith, and dangerously, gives legitimacy to those who truly wish to do real (temporal) harm to those of the Jewish faith (or ethnicity) in this world, at which point mere anti-Judaism ends and actual anti-Semitism begins. -- Kendrick7^talk 05:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)