Talk:Anti-Hellenism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] Neutrality of this article?

I would dispute the neutrality of the opening paragraph of this article. Dismissing Anti-Hellenism as some sort of a consipracy or deliberate misperception seems to be taking a less-than-objective stance on the matter. While the degree of Anti-Hellenism which exists can certainly be disputed, websites like www.hri.org/ahmp (American Hellenic Media Project, now seemingly defunct) have documented many instances of Anti-Hellenic bias, some of it overtly racist, appearing in the mainstream media. Not only is Anti-Hellenism a valid Wikipedia article, but I'd venture to dispute the neutrality of this article and call for a closer examination.

The author(s) of this article, for instance, make reference to the "true" Anti-Hellenists, something which I view as editorializing. An encyclopedia article shouldn't make distinctions based on one set of perceptions of what is, and what isn't, bias.

The article about Kissinger fails to point out other factors which may lead to a view of Kissinger as being Anti-Hellenic, for instance, his role in the United States government during the invasion of Cyprus in 1973. Many books have documented this, such as "The Cyprus Conspiracy" by Brendan O'Malley and Ian Craig.

Finally, the author(s) seem to equate Anti-Hellenism with some sort of underground, non-mainstream movement that should be discredited, and cite as its main source the existence of certain specific magazines in Greece which are known for publishing conspiracy theories (that are not exclusively about Anti-Hellenic bias), ignoring many noteworthy efforts which have been made to document real bias in the media. The American Hellenic Media Project is one such effort, but no mention of it or its findings have been made in this article other than the link included at the end. Neoellinas 07:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Neoellinas and have serious problems with this paragraph in particular "Anti-Hellenism, to certain people and some international press, seems to lack a racial and cultural basis (unlike anti-Semitism), and appears to be mostly based on geopolitically oriented reasons, as well as diplomatic and strategic interests closely related with the modern state of Greece." I believe the writer should look into the Istanbul Pogrom and the Greco-Turkish population exchange articals on...Wikipedia for example, before making such claims. Although Greco-Turkish relations have improved there is most certainly a historical racial and cultural basis for Anti-Hellenism very similar to anti-semitic pogroms of Russia and Eastern Europe.Bored college student 04:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Neoellinas. The neutrality of this article is very questionable and it seems to be written from a dismissive perspective. This is reinforced by the fact that the article seems to ignore all scholarly and academic responses to anti-Hellenism/misograecism and relegates this phenomenon to the status of "a sort of conspiracy theory than an actual hate movement" by making it appear as though only obscure and ridiculous conspiracy theorists recognize and expose it.
There are many examples of anti-Hellenism/misograecism that have little or nothing to do with geopolitical concerns and, instead, stem from a cultural and racial basis. This also extends far beyond Turkish attitudes. The attitude of the Latin and Frankish West to the Greek East, culminating in the 4th Crusade, is a medieval example whose foundations were based almost entirely on a cultural hatred of Greeks. In contemporary times, this cultural/racial hatred is still manifest. For instance, U.S. High Commissioner Admiral Mark Lambert Bristol's remarks (made in 1919) clearly indicate a contemporary racist attitude towards Greeks: "To me it is a calamity to let the Greeks have anything in this part of the world. Of course all of us were brought up to believe that the Greeks or the modern Greeks are simply the representatives of all the ancient Greeks meant to the world. This is so far wrong that probably everybody out here will agree that the Greek is about the worst race in the Near East. This may seem radical but it is pretty close to the truth". In light of such facts I would suggest that the cultural clash between Western culture and Greek culture be examined as a determinant of misograecist/anti-Hellenic attitudes, both past and present. Critias 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "bizzare crap"

Someone talks about the section i added about anti-hellenism in USA is bizzare crap. The fact that he read about these for the first time does not make them rubbish. This was a common accussation of USA by the KKE. It is a fact that amount given in the marshall plan was minimal, as was the military help.I know that this collides with what is written in the american history groups, but just look in the figures. I invite him to discuss this further.

Since when do accusations from the KKE warrant to be mentioned as... undisputed historical fact? Your snide comment about "American history books" is funny, but it does not alter the fact that, according to most Greek economists, the economic help given through the Marshal plan was unprecedented in Greek history. And, in any case, you need to give the relevant CITATIONS before editing an entry. While we're at it, why would, of all people, the KKE Stalinists accuse the United States of providing... too little military help (!) to democratic Greece when it was fighting against those exact same Stalinists? Maybe it is you that ought to be reading a couple more historical books, rather than PASOK's "Ekfrash" and KKE's "Kathodhghths" magazines, which seem to have confused you with regards to the facts. 212.251.120.1 17:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Which Democratic Greece do you speak about? Greece was America's banana republic until 1974, where thousands of Greeks were being languished in the prisons. Democracy in Greece was not restored until 1974, when the US lead coup fell and. And by the way, why isn't the USA lead coup between 1967-1974, which resulted to Cyprus's tragedy, and the British and US intervention in the Greek Civil War aren't mentioned?

[edit] Turks and Greeks

As a Turkish observer I must say that the remanants of anti-helenism in Turkish nation that comes from the greco-turkish war is mostly gone or about to get fallan apart. We are full of Greece love and we are sending them kisses.

[edit] Old talk

I can see that the article is still in development, but currently it comes across as very POV to me. Is this a documented phenomenon? Has there been any scientific research into it?--MaxMad 10:44, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Only one thing is sure: the phenomenon exists at least for now,and at least it exists for Greek people and in Greek people's mind. It could also be a temporary mass hysteria, but it exists,and is promoted day-by-day by a part of the Greek mass media.

I am Greek myself but I will try to un-POV the article if it's necessary (I don't like creating POV stuff) The insteresting thing with antihellenism is that it is more of a PERCEIVED persecution that an actual one (although there are,for example,some Anglo-Saxon journalists not overly fond with Greeks,some Turks are not very fond with Greeks too etc.) and there are very few people or organisations who would label themselves as anti-hellenic.

I hope that when the article is near-finished,I will be able to illustrate that fact. In Greece there is a strong belief that we are an "Έθνος Ανάδελφον",that is "A Brotherless Nation",since we were historically surrounded by enemies,there is almost no modern nation with historical/linguistical affinity with us (except Cyprus),the Greek people have been scattered around the world in a way similar to the Jew people etc. and whatmore,the modern geopolitical situation is not very favourable to us (Greece has always been in a strategic position,and has seldom known peace through the centuries).SO maybe perhaps antihellenism is something artificially created for labelling real or supposed enemies,it's possible.

I don't think there has been NON-GREEK scientific research into it,and I must admit that most of the existant material,especially that regarding the conspiracy theories etc. is mostly National Mysticism stuff,which needs careful processing. In Greece there are at least 5 or 6 magazines dealing with that stuff (some names: ΤΡΙΤΟ ΜΑΤΙ (Third Eye), ΕΛΛΗΝΟΡΑΜΑ (Hellenorama), ABATON (Untresspassable) and countless books. The question is: has anti-hellenism fueled the writing of those books,or have those books created a kind of miniature mass hysteria,by spreading alarming ideas?

My belief is that the argument is well worth an encyclopedic article,and I would appreciate any help in making it so. EpiVictor 11:14, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the article would be improved by adding some of your viewpoints above. My feeling too when reading it now is that it sounds very much like a conspiracy theory. Phrases like "some possible clues are" are very vague. I think it should be made clearer that this is more of a perceived phenomenon, or that its existence is disputed. Also, a division into sections, with an "arguments against" section at the end would make it more balanced. A section on "Influence on Greek politics" or similar would also be appropriate. I don't have any special knowledge about Greek politics, so I can't help much with the factual side of the article.--MaxMad 12:35, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I did a little edit job 4 now, squeezing some of the above ideas in, but the article is far from complete. I won't do edits for some days due to personal reasons, but anyone is encouraged to investigate further and help enhance the article. If it is to be a assigned to a category,I would put it under "conspiracy theory" and "social phenomena", since it has a strong perception component. EpiVictor 14:21, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This sounds like an essay, not an article. It could be listed on Wikipedia:Cleanup or Wikipedia:Pages needing attention. --Joy [shallot] 11:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You article as well as the one you scribed under "National Mysticism" and "Epsilon Team" are both:

1. POV ad nauseum. 2. Essays, not lemas. 3. Of VERY low SNR. 4. The one on "Epsilon" is frankly a waste of space here, though I can see it being a usefull addition to the Greek edition of the Wikipedia, where readers will know of and be interested in this sad Greek phenomenon.

If you wish to make a political point, please consider doing so in a relevant forum, webpage, blog, whatever. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Please consider removing the offensive and discriminatory essay on "National Mysticism" and "Epsilon Team" as well as appending your article on anti-Hellenism to:

1. Un-POV it 2. Include the relevant history of anti-Hellenism. See a small sample here:

Modern http://www.ahmp.org/bias.html http://www.ahmp.org/60minII.html Funny that you should mention the Klan though: "And a Greek is elected President THEN-the Ku Klux won't be worth a damn" Poem passed out at election polls by the Klan during the 1920's illustrating that, as with anti-Semitism, anti-Hellenism is not a new phenomenon. Medieval http://www.callisto.si.usherb.ca/~croisade/Annuario_en.htm Ancient http://www.ucd.ie/classics/97/Erskine97.html

Greeks in Schoolbooks http://www.coe.int/T/E/Cultural_Co-operation/education/History_Teaching/Reform_of_History_Teaching/Black%20Sea%20Initiative/b.Thessaloniki.asp#P562_69681

As you can see anti-Hellenism does unfortunately exist and has existed for several thousand years. Your lighthearted and biased handling of the subject is, at the very least offensive. The above are just an indication of the vast corpus of anti-Hellenic material that has been generated through the ages, with a lot of it being constantly recycled (duplicitousnes, homosexuality, laziness etc).I doubt wether the Greeks who died and were driven out of their homes in the 1955 Pogrom in Istanbul and Izmir as well as the later ones in Alexandria, for the simple reason that they were Greeks, would really be amused by your blithe assertions to the contrary.

Until today none had ever complained of any the above articles to be POV. If you think they are, please explain what makes them POV (which passages) and what exactly should be corrected. I AM Greek myself and I never wrote it doesn't exist, but that in its modern form it is more of a greatly exaagerated domestic construct. In other words: IT'S NOT AS BAD AS "SOME" WOULD LIKE US TO BELIEVE, unless all one reads is "ΕΛΛΗΝΟΡΑΜΑ" and all one watches on TV is "TELEASTY". I also wrote that THERE ARE a few declaredly anti-hellenic groups (Grey Wolves are, some extreme Albanian Nationalist are too, etc.) and maybe even the official policy of countries such as Turkey is (or has been) markedly antihellenic, but the article doesn't deny that.

It's also true that there are a lot of stereotypes for Greeks, but there are also a lot for Italians, Poles, Germans, Blacks etc. and they aren't any better, nor worse. EpiVictor 09:40, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Taking a Whack at It

Panagia. I came across this article, and my head spun. I gave it a try, and re-wrote most of the content for style and to soften the POV laden lines. I'll try to list the major eyebrow-raisers below:

  • Added/changed: Sweeping generalizations (like "most Greeks believe...")
  • Replaced: I tried to replace every instance of alternate renditions of "anti-Hellenism," to reflect the title of the article.
  • Removed: "terrorist lair" quoted reference. Google turned up only Wiki mirrors when searching for Greece and "terrorist lair". Many did in fact apologize for maligning Greece, however.
  • Removed (Demonization): "much like the Jews who label Anti-Semitism". This (judging from the sloppy spacing in the previous version) might have been inserted after the line was originally written. The phrase, or addition, itself implies that Jews are usually the (only) ones to identify anti-Semitism, and that it may not actually exist. This is either a blind stereotype or quite an anti-Semitic thing to write.
  • Removed (Demonization): "Greeks suspect anyone merely opposing Greek interests in any area" quoted reference. The author must have been quoting himself. The lack of Google results and the "merely" in there certainly make it look like that, anyway.

I'm aware of atrocities committed against Greeks, especially by Turkey in the 20th century, but as Greeks are hardly alone in their plight (Armenians, Kurds, sometimes any non-Turks), I don't really believe it's as much of an anti-Hellenic phenomenon as an anti-minority phenomenon, aggravated by stereotypes by people who don't understand, among a population with a traditionally far-flung diaspora. Anti-minority, fascist, murderous, or ethnocentrist behavior is not the same as anti-Hellenism, and neither is such behavior limited to non-Greeks. While the phenomenon may be noteworthy for its perceived reality among a great number of people, I'm not sure that its treatment in this article is going to be anything but POV.

Oopst. Forgot to sign. JFHJr (㊟) 10:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

Hmm..this is going to be hard, especially as part of the material of the article can be verified only by a "I've been there, I heard/know that" argumentation, which is hardly valid. It should be possible however to track e.g. CNN's or BBC's "concerns" about terrorism, and maybe pinpoint the exact issues of those Greek "National mysticism" magazines such as "Hellenorama" or "Third Eye" for exact citations, but that's about it (BTW, Hellenorama hardly uses bibliography, "Third Eye" (ΤΡΙΤΟ ΜΑΤΙ) sometimes does. EpiVictor 16:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Epi, I'm pretty sure this is the website for Trito Mati, but it doesn't have English content and my Greek has atrophied horribly. It might have something interesting that could be put here, but I can't skim like I used to. Also, do you know if Ellinorama has a website? JFHJr (㊟) 10:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
LOL, not when I came across the last issue (1 year ago, I am no fan of Hellenorama :-) but I can check :-) EpiVictor 12:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be good if non-greek reading, non-living in Greece (and non-Greek too?) persons be more modest in revising articles about Greece, for items they have no knowledge, and no living experiences.

The links «Τρίτο Μάτι», «Hellenic Nexus» The e-Forum of Esoptron publications ("Trito Mati") with a lot of articles.ΚΑΛΛΙΜΑΧΟΣ 22:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Howard Fast's philohellenism is explained in his book A History Of The Jews, in which he talks about the interactions between Jews and Greeks through the centuries and specifically cites that Greek culture traditionally has been less anti-Semitic than other European cultures. That book is intended as popular history for young adults rather than a scholarly tome. ****

[edit] Antihellenism through the ages

The very beginning of the article, stating that anti-semitism is real, whereas anti-hellenism, or anti-anything is not, is a racial discriminating statement against the Hellenes and all nations of the world, and, we can say, anti-hellenic in itself! In fact, it's just a "politically correct" statement (with the negative meaning of political correctness). (Also, it is an anti-semitic statement in itself, because, if the only anti-ism is anti-semitism, that means by itself that the Jews have something special racially discriminating them for all other nations; which by itself is a racial discriminating statement.) In all, as Greeks say, «πάψτε νὰ ντρέπεστε καὶ νὰ φοβᾶστε μὴν σᾶς ποῦν ἐθνικιστές!»

My statement above is valid, because of the very facts: Anti-hellenism isn't just... "anti-belgianism", "anti-luxemburgianism", "anti-ethiopianism", or "anti-malaysianism" (nothing negative for the above nations); it's as real as "anti-semitism" or "anti-americanism". Why "anti-semitism" or "anti-americanism" is real, in the whole meaning of the word, and not just expressions of limited territorial disputes (as happening with all nations of all centuries)? Because judaism or americanism refer to global, ecumenical politico-economical systems/religions/philosophies/cultural paradigms. That's the issue. (Attention: I don't refer, of course, to the silly conspiratorial theories that secret jewish societies rule the world; I mean the ecumenical influence of the jewish religion and civilization (straightly or through christianity) and, inevitably, the antithesis to this ecumenical-inluence paradigm.

Hellenism is also an ecumenical (the greatest in historical influence) civilization paradigm, during not only the 5th or 4th B.C. centuries, but during two millenia; as regarding not only civilization (first ecumenical antithesis: Persian wars; antithesis of hellenic freedom of "politis" (=personality, political subject) and the despotism of the East) (the ecumenical political paradigm of the polis; democracy; freedom; antithesis also of "logos" to the despotism-theocracy-superstition; science), but also geopolitics (ecumenical extension: colonies beginning 8th B.C. century (perhaps much earlier) through all Mediterranean (and perhaps muc further); Empire of Alexander, and Hellenistic kingdoms; Hellenization o Roman Empire; Historical dialogue (or collision and synthesis osomewhere) with judaism; Emerging of Christianity (in different forms); Continuation of the Roman Empire as the Hellenic Christian Empire of the East (the so called by the later western historians Byzantium).

Ecumenical impact of a civilization-geopolitical paradigm, means, inevitably, ecumenical "-ism" and ecumenical "anti-ism" (with every good meaning and distorted bad meaning of "-ism".) Period.

Keep in mind the previously refered ecumenical-dimension antitheses:

a) Classical period: Antithesis between the Hellenic civilization and the eastern despotism.

(See Aeshylus.)

b) Antithesis between Hellenic Civilization and Roman force.

(See also Cato opposing the spreading of greek civilization in Rome, etc etc.)

c) Hellenistic and, also, after the hellenization of Rome, early Roman period: Antithesis between Hellenic civilization-geopolitics and Judaism.

(The judaic Chanukah is the remembrance of this collision. See e.g. the valid jew site Aish HaTorah: What is Chanukah According Rabbi Ahron Lopiansky, Chanukah refers to "The darkness that was Greece".

Attention: The above isn't "antisemitic" (and cannot be, because it's the jewish point of view (and, from their point, justified). It isn't neither bad nor good; it's just a historic collision; There isn't good and bad here, that's exactly how civilization and history are going forward, through antithesis and synthesis. What I want to say is that historical civilization antitheses with ecumenical impact can give birth to later anti-isms too, even ideological misuses, racial biases etc.)

d) Antithesis between the old hellenic religion and the east religions (egyptian and asiatic religions, judaism, mithraism, etc etc, at last the new christianity.) (This coincides a lot with (c).)

e) (After i) the development and forming of Christianity, with greek materials, as the new Greek religion and "paradosis"-civilization, and, ii) the fall of western Roman empire to the immigrant nations of Goths, Francs, Teutons and the formation of new western nations.) Antithesis between the Hellenic empire of the east, Roman Empire officialy always (Byzantium as a state, Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinoupolis as a church, Greek-Orthodoxy as religious and civilization tradition), and the West.

(The schismas: 867, 1054.)

f) Geopolitical antithesis between Hellenic East and West. Fall of Byzantium to fierce barbaric offenders: Normans, Venetians, Francs; The discgraceful for all western civilization 4th crusade: 1204. (Pope John Paul II expressed officialy his deep sorrow for the attrocities of the crusaders of 1204, in Athens, Greece, 2004, during his visit to Greece and meet with the Archbishop of the Church of Greek, Christodoulos.)

g) Antithsis with the barbaric East: Arabs, Slavs, Seldjuc Turks, Ottoman Turks. Fall of Byzantium.

h) Antithesis of England (later USA) and Russia (later USSR) in eastern Meditarranean, anthithesis caused many problems to Greece. (The still invaded and half- military occupied Cyprus, and the propaganda and the arrogant usurpation-willing of the Hellenic Macedonia by the northern Slavs, are some coincidences, more or less, of this West-East cold-war antithesis.)

Notice for 20th century: Greece is the only Orthodox-Christian nation between the Western allies; and was the only Western-democratic nation between the East Orthodox nations.

What that means? "Ethnos anadelfon", as former President of the Hellenic Democracy, Christos Sartzetakis, has said. («Ἔθνος ἀνάδελφον») What other that means? «ἰσορροπία ἐπὶ ξηροῦ ἀκμῆς»; "balance on the cut of a razor", between anti-hellenism and philhellenism (p.s. since philhellenism exists, antihellenism too), during two and a half thousand years, in the center of ecumenical civilization-historic forces colliding and synthesized!

That is what antihellenism means. (And much more.)

The article, in my opinion, needs to be extended a lot.

I'm going to provide historical documents for all the above.

ΚΑΛΛΙΜΑΧΟΣ 21:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

If you can really provide documentation and references for even just half of the above, that would be a very good addition to the article, and would surely have consequences on other "anti-" articles. Just uhm...we should take references from e.g. Trito Mati or Hellenic Nexus with a grain of salt, while we need more references to (and like) the infamous Kissinger speech. You seem to know the deal however, this can turn out as a great article, it's just it didn't get the attention it deserved until now. EpiVictor 12:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bizzare "anti-hellenism in the usa" section

Talk about turning the truth on its head! Greek antiamericanism, especially from its main, left-leaning proponents, is not based on Americans "not helping Greece enough to defeat the communists" ; if anything, it was formed around the exact opposite basis : that Americans had the audacity to "intervene", helping the Greek democratics fend off the Stalinists during the civil war. The whole paragraph is a hodgepodge of tall-tales and I am deleting it. If someone wants to reconstitute, please do some research to try and find sources supporting your allegations beforehand. (I mean, honestly, the Marshall plan shortchanging Greece? Have you even read what Greek economists have written on the amount of economic help the plan provided for Greece?)

[edit] Euro 2004, FYROM CLAIMS

Euro 2004 has been described by many of the world's media as a fluke. The dropped FYROM paper that was internationally recognised and published before being dropped for the fact that the researchers used the wrong gene to test. It stated Greeks are from Africa in the recent past and not decendants of Macedonian, where as the Slav are the true descendants. Reaper7 12:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That pseudoscientific study did not outright claim that FYROM Slavs are Macedonians, so I took that part out. Additionally, it also made other, similarly unfounded claims, such as that the Japanese are genetically identical to Africans (or that Israelites and Palestinians are genetically identical). It is most obviously bad science, but seeing how its errors are spread all over the genetic map, I don't see it as being specifically aimed against the Greeks.

There has been similar propaganga from FYROM for a long time now, this is the best exapmple. It was written with the affect to claim that greeks are newly arrived in the area, it is significant, and a key example of what fuels the belief in anti hellenism. Most greeks are aware of these flawed studies and many FYROM used it against greeks along with other studies to further their claims until the nature magazine article. I feel i will have to get others involved in the article and there can also be a very ordered Balkans section. Also I will try to find a way to add the BBC in the English media section, many of their articles have fueled this belief. Reaper7 13:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Article is Original Research

I've been reading through this entire article and frankly it reads like a large violation of Wikipedia:No original research.

Original research in an article:

  • introduces a theory or method of solution;

I have not seen an academic citation of the term "anti hellenism". The "ism" inspires the idea of a scientific term or pre-packaged ideology like antisemitism. At most, this entire article is about "anti Greek sentiment" throughout the ages, whether it is cultural or political. Nonetheless, there is no citable proof to suggest that these unconnected occurances form a pattern.

There is no cited academic evidence in this article to suggest that singular instances of political or cultural hostility toward Greek culture is connected to some broad agenda, as opposed to narrow historical rivarly the day such sentiment breaks out. For example, French and English animosity toward each other for thousands of years stemmed from political rivarly, Cato was a Roman pietist who detested what he saw to be licentious Greek culture. Persians were once at war with the Greek city states. All of these sentiments are in no way connected to some broad anti hellenist agenda. What this article does is weave its own theory and name from isolated historical occurances.

  • introduces original ideas;

This article attempts to weave isolated incidents based on political motivation during large periods of time to form an all encomposing theory about a widespread anti hellenist conspiracy where one either doesn't exist, or is part of political rivarly between nations.

  • defines new terms;

As above. There is no reputable or citable information in this entire article.

  • provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms;

As above. Who defined this term? Where is the widepsread use? Either this article needs a rewrite or it needs to be deleted as non notable.

  • introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;

Article does not use any first hand, secondary or really any sources.

  • introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;

Most likely, the lack of sources has something to do with this too.

Based on this information, I think this article much like another article Anti-Hungarian sentiment should be erased.

Any comments?

Guy Montag 05:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, while I understand your concerns, WP:OR is not the case here. I think it's WP:NPOV (which is an AfD NOT). The subject itself is indeed notable (quite evidently and also in scholar) so all we need is someone genuinely interested in improving/de-POVing/expanding it etc. NikoSilver 14:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The only possible notability I can see is philosophical opposition to hellenist ideas, for example of stoicists. But it would still be hard to find notability for such an article. I am pretty opposed to articles about anti-X feeling situated outside of their context.

Guy Montag 21:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Guy Montag. Niko, your list of quotes only proves that the words "antihellenic" etc. exist, not that they refer to a topic that is in itself encyclopedic. What you have there is a hodgepodge of unrelated things: Ancient Judaeans disliking Hellenistic tyranny; Romans disliking Ancient Greek culture; Turks disliking Greeks in 1950s Istanbul; Western media critical of Greek expansion in the early 20th century; Romanians disliking their Greek Phanariot overlords in the early 19th century; Latins disliking Byzantines in the Middle Ages. Please see my earlier comments to Duja here: User talk:Duja/Archive 5#Anti-X'ism articles to see why I'm not impressed with such a list. Show me one scholarly publication that discusses all these different things as a single, connected tradition, and you'll have a point for an article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Errr, I'm absolutely unfamiliar with the subject (although a fellow Epsilonist myself :-) ), I just noted what I though might help on the notability issue, and as I said, "all we need is someone genuinely interested in improving/de-POVing/expanding it etc." I've stalked your talk with Duja and I mostly agree. That's why I haven't taken part in any of the edits since Guy's removal of all items you mention. I notice they've been recently added back? NikoSilver 23:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It is nonsense to delete this article, if people spent the time to write it obviously it has some merit. If people disagree with it's content add a disputed tag. -Alexius Comnenus

[edit] What's going on?

Frankly I don't understand the whole debate that seems to be ongoing on whether or not Anti-Hellenism even "exists." To me, that is as much POV as anything that can be written in an article. While the article that was written here was indeed badly written and in need of major changes, I don't feel that the existence or non-existence of Anti-Hellenism is up for dispute. An objective encyclopedia article will present those viewpoints in an unbiased way. While the author(s) of the article that was written here clearly seemed to have their own agenda and did not follow Wikipedia guidelines, there are many documented cases of Ant-Hellenism. Even if Anti-Hellenism is merely considered by some to be an Anti-Greek sentiment, that in itself is worthy of consideration. It may not be on as wide of a (perceived) scale as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Americanism, but creating distinctions between which "ism" is valid and which isn't, especially when there are many documented cases of anti-Hellenic sentiments of some kind being expressed in the mainstream media (as documented, for instance, by the American Hellenic Media Project). Neoellinas 21:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anon rv war

124.185.185.162 (talk • contribs) what is the problem, what is the POV? I don't understand your explanations.--Domitius 12:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia people please edit this page

I am Greek and have lived in Athens all my life. I am a political science graduate and a media-buff and not once have I heard of the Epsilon Team. From context, I suspect this is an urban legend by obscure and marginal elements of the far-right, like Liakopoulos and Adonis Georgiadis, whose maniac shows are a favorite for people who want to laugh at the extent of paranoia in the Greek society. Some people will just not accept the fact that while we may have a glorious past, we are but a blip on the map. So except of some elements in the region, no one hates us, simply because we are too singificant to be hated.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/n/t/Talk%7EAnti-Hellenism_79be.html"