Talk:Ani-kutani

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This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Cherokee script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Cherokee script.

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[edit] Citations needed

This is fascinating, and i presume that it is accurate, but some reliable sources need to be cited. There are also a good many "weasel words" that need to be clarified.

  • "According the the legends, they killed women and children..." Are these legands recorded? How can they be verified, particualrly by soemone who is not a Cherokee?

They are in Reference 2 of Cherokee.

Can you provide a page number reference or other citation, please, when you have a chance? DES (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • "...the legends of its existence may have been what inspired Sequoyah to perform his great work" what evidenence is there for this?

Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument

Then this should be made more explicit. If some names of scholars or other people who hold this view can be cited, along with a web url or two that point to useful discussions of this view, it would be helpful. DES (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. References section updated. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • "the legends of the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni are believed to have inspired Sequoyah to recreate a means of writing for the Cherokee people" who belives this, and whre do those who belive this say so?

Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument

Then this also should be made more explicit. If some names of scholars or other people who hold this view can be cited, along with a web url or two that point to useful discussions of this view, it would be helpful. DES (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


See References. Already Done. Wilma Mankiller is one of the References. I think she is credible. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • "It was legend among the Cherokee that the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni were able to record "the words of the people upon the wind"..." Has this legend been recorded anywere, or have people (Cherokee's or others) recorded being told this legend? Where and when?

Yes. Cherokee, Google 491 sites and on-line discussions, and the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya writings.

good. some specific citations would be helpful. DES (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. See References. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • "Although it was widely held by the Cherokees that the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni were all destroyed, a small group of their descendants hid among the people in secrecy and marched the trail of tears." This and subsequent sentnances are stated as fact. What is the source? how can this be verified?

Writings and history of An-ni-ku-ta-ni, Can be obtained from Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya in Grassy, MO. Published in ancient writings, also republished in Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya newsletters sent monthly. See Ref 3.

That is helpful. If this periodical can be cited by issue number and date, and page is it is large, that would be particualrly helpful. If it doesn't have issue numbers, by date or what ever other bibliographic info is avaiable DES (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Have to dig for that one. The date was October of 2002. I will update the References Section. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • " In September of 2002, the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya and Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni performed the ancient ceremonies on the spot where the Cherokee people crossed the river, and believe that the true culture, spirituality, and brotherhood of the people was restored according to ancient written prophecies." Is there any publicly available account of this event?

Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Central Organization also has them.

  • Current status everything in this section is stated as fact. Are citeable sources availabel for any of it?

Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Religious Organization also has them.

No need to fax them. Name of the newsletter, issue number and/or date and how to get copies for those who might want them is a fully adaquete citation. DES (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • "It is currently believed that the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith visited the Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni in the early 1800's during his excursions into Missouri..." Who belives this? The Mormons? the Cherokees? Cherokee scholars? non-Cherokee scholars? Can a source be sited where any person or group of people say that they hold this belif?

Only the Mormons believe this. Its contained in their Journal of Discourses, and the Archives of the Mormom Church.

Then we should edit this to say "Momrons belive" or "Many mormons belive" or "some mormons belive" (whichever is correct) and cite the Journal properly byu title and issue date/number, and page number if available. DES (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I will have the mormons do this one. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Three references are currently given, but it is not clear which statements in the article are supported by which references. I hope that more detailed citations will be provided to support the statements in the article. DES (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Can be if researched and the time spent to footnote the entire article. There are a lot of claimed "Cherokee" groups who don't really know their culture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.137.28.187 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 23 September 2005.
Which makes them much like many other people. It eoulfd be highly desireable to footnote or otehrwise reference this article better, IMO, and to clariofy the useage of words like "belived". If you like, if you provide the facts i will do the footnote formatting. Or you can do both if you prefer. DES (talk) 19:21, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


I'll put the cites in the references section, and you can footnote the article. The newletters don't have versions and they are written in Syllabary (most folks can't read them probably). But there is some english text in them that headline events. I can ask for english only versions. 67.137.28.187 19:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm more than willign to work with you on this. I do need to know where specifically (or as specifically as possible) a researcher would find support for each statement. DES (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


Write to Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization, He is United Keetoowah. HCR 64 Box 816 Grassy, MO 63751


[edit] Cititations added

I have added what notes I could in the standard Wikipedia:Footnote3 style. Please check them for accuracy, and provide any further specific source citations available. Thanks. DES (talk) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Your are awesome! Wa-do Tsv-ge-na-li (Thanks my friend). I will go through all the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya postings when I get home. 67.137.28.187 23:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Synonomy and Cherokee and AniKutani

The information regarding the AniKutani is interesting however I see no point of reference. As a Keetoowah person and Historian, I would like to point out an historic reference that places the "Destruction" of the anikutani beginning in 1760. A trader- John Long- (Journal available) notes the morning mist brought with it an attack on the town he was residing in, (Chestua), rabbit town, a Yuchee/Cherokee town, and the "Cherokee" warriors swept through the town destroying the "priest" etc. This coincides with oral history in my family that indicates that the Christian Cherokees (ofthe newly reorganized Cherokee lower towns Government), began destroying any and all AniKutani throughout Cherokee country. Further, that the AniKutani (phonetic- Ani K'u tani--meaning of high knowledge) were also seen among other nations e.g. Iroquois, Algonquians -Muskogee etc and known to those as Inihi- Micco etc. My family record also states re Cherokee that Cherokee is not as is assumed, of Muskogee language derivation but is, from- Cheriaki anhaka, and Cheriaki targhe (Variously seen in early Spanish Journals), freely understood- (those of) the Fire. Acherra is the Keetoowah reference for Fire as is also Ocherra in Mohawk, (a related language). Three things must occur in placing a "word/ term", A. Location- (geographic) B. Time-and C. Intent. Asseen in Traditional records ofthe related Nations, Cayuga, Mohawk, Onondaga, Senneca, Oneida, (and Wyandotte), the "Cherokee" were traditionaly known and freely refered to by all surrounding Native Nations as the "People of the Fire". In the case of Cheriaki anhaka, the reference is originally to the Central Fire. The location of the Central / Principal seat-Fire of the Cherokee. This location is seen on a British War department map -c. 1755 The map is "The British Colonies in America": and clearly shows the great Ohio Valley region and the Appalachians and specifically the Cumberland’s of E Kentucky. Along the Cumberland’s is written "Ouscioto Mountains". Ouscioto is translated as Was Cherra Oto. Understood as (the) Central Fire. Oscioto being an adapted British form of Wascherra oto. More literally it is aWasCherra- (primary/ core/ Fire- and Oto "Lodge". Various references of the Lene Lenape circa 13-1500's identify this geographic as the center of the Alligewi (a term used by Lenepes to define those of the cave country) The Keetoowah. Time (C13-1400s & 1755) Geography-Map Cumberland’s -and Intent-the "intention of the term as a describer of (a) central Fire all come together to define Ouscito as the ancient (pre 1492) central home/ fire of the body later known commonly as Cherokee. That this body was (over a 350 year period C.1300s to 1600s,) driven from the central home lands to more southern reaches by a combined Wyandotte and Lene Lenape push from the North, seems to escaped the notice of contemporary history. Also not seen is any indication that any descendants of AniKutani survive, and I assure you, they do. Staiyu', Wahya, AniKituwagi.

[edit] Cherokee "women and baby killers"

The citations regarding the killing of men, women and children are disputable. While Cherokee priests may have killed men, women and children, there is no reliable record of these killings. The legends were probably stories exaggerated by European settlers whose racism, cultural dominance and ignorance of the native population lead ultimately to their demise. No full-blooded Cherokee live today; even the tribal elders are 50% or less Cherokee blood. The stories are shrouded in mystery; their origins, as well, seem to lack precise citation in this article.

[edit] This article is ahistorical

There is simply no convincing evidence as to the truth of this article. Stories about a pre-Sequoyah writing system, for instance, are not supported by any serious scientific evidence.

Much of this sounds like "New Age" revisionism of traditional Cherokee culture.

[edit] Claimed internet "historians" from Oregon State

For the "claimed historians" the preceeding sections on this talk page demonstrate A) the person commenting is not a Native Speaker of Cherokee. (Wahya is not spelled this way in phonetics or syllabary) and B) they have little or no contact with the Aniyvwiya or Cherokee Society and are quoting out of the same inaccurate books (which do not even mention the AniKutani). There are sections on Cherokee Mythology listed here and the existence of this mythology is verifiable and meets WP:RS and is accurate.

I do agree that the comments about baby killing are unsourced -- and have been removed. TsiGeGa 23:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that this article is a "New Age" hoax and distortion of a Cherokee myth or legend. It appears that the distortion is driven by a desire to high jack the Cherokee. Also are there any state or federal recognized cherokee tribes in the state of Missouri? Just asking. I have added to this article what I can validate from the Cherokee history written by James Mooney., LoveMonkey 04:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

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