Talk:Anglo-Indian

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I have struck thru the immediately following contrib, for its offensively worded 1st 'graph, and its either racist or unspeakably clumsy 2nd 'graph; IMO it is so clewlessly irrelevant that its complete deprecation via removal could do no harm. --Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 14:19 (UTC)

<== Indian parliament ==

Some knowledgeable editor should briefly expand on the Anglo-Indian representatives in the Indian Parliament as such a system may be unknown (let alone surprising) to many readers, especially in the United States -Acjelen 30 June 2005 04:06 (UTC)

  • (I'd like it noted that some Yanks are aware of proposals, when decolonization was in progress, for "communal representation" for at least the Dalit, and i think also (by Jinnah?) for Muslims, and thus not much surprised.)
More to the point, tho, how about a lk to the "India (implemented)" sec of an article on such proposals, world-wide, whether implemented or not?
--Jerzy·t

Contents

[edit] Indiachild

ANGLO INDIANS AND THEIR INDIAN ANCESTORY and IDENTITY: Can anyone explain why Engelbert Humperdinck (the singer) seems to be in denial of the Indian side of his ancestory (an accusation that can be leveled at many other Anglo Indians)? I went to school in Mumbai (St.Mary's High School, Mazagoan)with a Patrick Dorsey who said he was a first cousin of Englebert's. To us he was as Indian as the rest of us. We were all dead proud of Englebert's achievments, thou' we may not necessarily have liked his music (it was music for our Mums and Dads, in an era of the Stones and the Beatles!). However, over the past 30yrs in England I've seen various interviews on telly with Englebert and in all of them he never refers to his Indian past (except in the interview with Mark Lawson) and constantly refers to himself as the Leicester Lad. The reality was that his 'lad' days were spent in the lap of luxury (the horrors of partition apart) in India. He also always talks about coming 'home'. England was his father's home, sure; but India was his mother's and it was the land of his birth. I would therefore argue that that aught to have been his home really.

Many Anglo Indians (a classification unknown to the English back home, incidentally) spoke of coming 'home' but when they got to England were considered 'Pakis' like the rest of us. I know of a fully paid up Anglo Indian, formerly from Cochin, a builder by trade who recently had to flee the Eltham area in S.E. London, known to be a rabid National Front (the right wing fascist party) stronghold, when he responded to call to his ad in the name of C.Dunn. I know he didn't feel at 'home' then!

I'll end by urging all Anglo Indians in doubt of their ancestory to also embrace their 'Indian-ness'. You may have been collaborators in the colonial project but India bears no grudge. All is forgiven!! India is on the ascendant again and if one needs to know some of your Indian ancestors' achievements, apart from giving the world it's numerals and zero here's something you ought to take note and be proud of: Q. We Indians are the wealthiest among all ethnic groups in America, and growing in the rest of the world… even faring better than those of European descent, the Jews, Latin Americans and the natives. There are only 2.22 million Indians in the USA (1.5% of population).

YET, 38% of doctors in the USA are Indians. 20% scientists in the USA are Indians. 36% of NASA scientists are Indians. 34% of Microsoft employees are Indians. 28% of IBM employees are Indians. 17% of INTEL scientists are Indians. 13% of XEROX employees are Indians.

The fact of the matter is that you are both Indian and English/British. That is a reality you can be proud of.

Engelbert Humperdinck and Anglo Indians remember to embrace your Indian side too. Acknowledge your mother!

http://www.indianchild.com/anglo_indians.htm has been kind enough to supply us with information provided they are credited. Email proof available with me. User:Nichalp/sg 18:55, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Nicholas,      
Thanks for writing to us.  
   Yes, you may use some paragraphs or articles from Indianchild.com with a courtesy link.

 Sincerely,
M.Hemdev
CEO Indianchild.com

User:Nichalp/sg 11:19, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


Indiachild isn't a credible reference source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anglo-Indian#Indiachild_isn.27t_a_credible_reference_source Poweroid 18:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Cliff Richard and Vivian Leigh

Cliff Richard is the son of an Anglo-Indian train driver. Are you sure you want to deny that he is Anglo-Indian? And Vivian Leigh might have denied it, Merle Oberon always did, but that does not mean she is not Anglo-Indian. Her mother's name was Yackjee. Unusual in an Irish girl. Lao Wai 11:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

1. AIs (yes, they refer to themselves as AIs, not "Anglos") have reserved seats not just for MPs but MLAs as well (State Legislative Assemblies). I was a member of the AIAIA (All India Anglo Indian Association) that made the recommendations for MLAs appointments and I'm fairly sure we did one for AP (Hyderbad).

2. The AI community has made contributions to India that far surpass their numbers. How come none of this is covered? Any takers? They comprised most of the staff in missionary schools (probably 99.99% of people who had an English education in India were taught by an AI at some point). But that pales into insignificance when you look at the contributions they made to the railways, the Navy (particularly during the 1965 and 1971 conflicts), ports, customs, and sport. At one point in time, I understand, 7 of the Indian Hockey team members were AIs.

3. We don't seem to have any mention of their unique foods (ball curry and coconut rice with devil chutney, anyone?), the words and expressions unique to the community, the annual Christmas dances, other socio-cultural matters worthy of comment.

Any takers? Poweroid 20:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo Indian History

I added a great deal to the history section, which seemed to be quite empty.

I made two small edits:

The "Portuguese" in British India were described as European immigrants (or European Indians), whereas, in reality, "Portuguese" was an officially sanctioned name for any Anglo-Indian with Hispanic blood.

Also they were described as just having British fathers. This was not always so. The most famous Anglo-Indian poet, Henry Derozio, had an English mother.

Regards:

TB

langstieh@yahoo.com

[edit] Some changes I'm going to make

1. Removed etymology of AI. The definitions in the opening para are sufficient summaries.

2. "It may also assist you henceforth in penning your lucubrations:....Well, Sir, I think I have submitted sufficient, and really, even upon a third and fourth perusal, I am at a loss to fix upon one...". I'm removing all of this. Please read the POV guidelines.

3. "An infusion of ‘superior’ British blood would, it was thought, create a caste of Super-Natives..." There is no evidence that the Anglo-Indian community came about from anything other than simple inter-marriages/unions of British and Indians. To suggest the British consciously worked towards creating a community of mixed blood requires some evidence. Are we suggesting that British all over India worked at inter-racial unions with the sole intention of creating Anglo-Indians? I'm removing this.

Regarding the above, Richard Francis Burton wrote that he had never witnessed or heard of a case of an Indian kept woman falling in love with her white protector. He also mentions that these women scornfully compared their English lovers to village roosters for the paucity and brevity of their sexual performances. As for marrying an Indian woman, that would have been considered 'going Native'. Taken altogether, not the soundest foundation for the creation of a 'super' race. Cspalletta 11:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

4. " 1901 census of Calcutta....Anglo Indians have always been an integral part of Calcutta's society... first European settlement in Bengal at Hooghly, and set up a famous church at Bandel to bear witness to their Catholic piety...Hooghly waned, the Kintals journeyed to the new city of Calcutta..." What's with all the focus on Calcutta, Bandel, Hooghly? Sure, Cal has it's fair share of AIs - and AI history - but if we included a similar quantity of AI history from other provinces, from the Bombays to the Trichys the article would far exceed Wikipedia max sizes.

I'm reverting to an older copy of the article. That seems easier than making all the modifications above... and others. I've also left previous editor a message on his own talk page. Please have a look. Poweroid 20:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling

I do not see any evidence from the article Rudyard Kipling indicating his Indian ancestry. He was born in Bombay, but weren't both his father and mother British? At least they met in England and moved together to India. --132.230.151.57 10:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

As stated in the article, the term AI refers not only to mixed race individuals but also to "persons not temporarily domiciled in India" of purely European descent; and to that extent, Anglo-Indians are self selected. Take for example Jim Corbett, who strongly identified himself as an Indian and has been honored as such by the Indian Government and people. An interesting parallel to Corbett is Louis Leakey, who clearly implies in his autobiography that he considered himself a Kikuyu and not an Englishman, as a result of growing up speaking the Kikuyu tongue to everyone but his parents, and thinking in Kikuyu at least into his twenties. Are there such things as Anglo-Africans ?
However it doesn't make sense to apply the term 'Anglo-Indian' to a person of European descent who happened to be born in India but moved away at an early age, and has no self identification as an AI; for example, Vivien Leigh, cited under 'Notable Persons' in the article.
Regarding Kipling, it is problematic to what extent he considered himself AI. It is significant that in the Jungle Book, the animals - Mowgli's best and only friends - reason and speak in much the same way as Kipling represents native Indians as doing, for example in Kim. Mowgli is a human adopted by animals, who prove to be better and wiser than humans. Ultimately Mowgli must return to his own heritage, but he preserves the lessons he has learned from that other 'culture', which have made him what he is. This perhaps speaks to the question as to what extent Kipling considered himself an Indian. Cspalletta 11:41, 23 September 2005 (UTC)-

There does not seem to be a community of people called Anglo-Africans. A major distinguishing feature of the Anglo-Indian community is just that - they are a community. They've evolved their own expressions, foods, culture, and traditions. A person who happens to be born today of a British father and an Indian mother does not become an "Anglo-Indian" as the term is currently used. The "persons not temporarily domiciled in India" was part of a definition created a long time ago and is ripe for revision. Personally, I think it's time to coin a new definition to replace the AIAIA one. The new one should be built around what is the Anglo-Indian community today. Perhaps a second definition can be offered for those who may consider themselves to be of both British and Indian descent but who aren't from the Anglo-Indian community. Poweroid 12:43, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


Apologies about Rudyard Kipling, you are correct. After some research into his bio I've removed him from the list. Poweroid

[edit] Cite sources

Please cite your sources to any claims of Anglo-Indian origins from a credible source. I'll be removing dubious links for now. User:Nichalp/sg 17:56, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

A.I.s are established as a community and a person born today of mixed Anglo and Indian parentage does not share any of the cultural traits of that community. Yet, there is no other word to define them. If we are calling them Anglo-Indians we do need to distinguish from the established community of that name. Poweroid 15:37, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No disambiguation on similar articles

It is not stated but understood, that when used as an adjective, Anglo-Indian refers to anything relating to Britain and India (or possibly to England and British India). Eh? //Big Adamsky 10:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I was reading a number of English books from the colonial and post-colonial period and they use the term "Anglo-Indian" to refer to British people settled in India, particularly Kipling. Shouldnt this definition be included as well?


  • Exactly my point. Anything non-community should be separated to avoid confusion. Poweroid 13:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a diffiult and confused subject. Some of the people cited, eg George Orwell, were surely not of mixed race. If being born in India makes someone Anglo-Indian, why not add Rudyard Kipling and John Masters for example? Then there are people of mixed Indian and British ancestry who would not consider themselves Anglo-Indian, such as the Newcastle born Michael Chopra or the former Conservative MP, Jonathan Sayeed. And how about Nasser Hussain?

In the light of this, I'm not going to add to or subtract from either list, but you could add Kevin Keelan, the former Norwich City goalkeeper, or another footballer, Ricky Hippolyte, who played for Crystal Palace in the seventies.

There's a sad racist tinge. Lots of people are queueing up wanting to say, "I'm Irish". Far fewer want to claim Indian blood. Bill Tegner 23:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

My comment on this in the "Plastic Paddy" discussion was removed! Some things are just TOO sensitive. Bill Tegner 09:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indiachild isn't a credible reference source

212.219.145.102 has made some very good points in his/her edit but I have a problem with the Indiachild.com as a reference source. Their entire content on AIs is about half a dozen paragraphs long (i.e. they aren't really any authority on the subject). But the real issue is that their content isn't even accurate. From their site: "Unlike the Parsis, relatively few have attained high levels of education, amassed great wealth, or achieved more than subordinate government positions". This is patently untrue and the Indian armed forces alone provides ample evidence in the form of the numerous Anglo-Indians who've been awarded military honours, titles and very senior positions. Bear in mind that the community was only about 200,000 strong at Independence and has been getting smaller since. While AIs accounted for less than 0.02% of the Indian population it's a fact that they accounted for over 5% of senior position in the Indian Navy alone... and 10% of Admirals in the Navy were Anglo-Indians. Their contributions in other areas is also quite marked.

The new edit also has: "The origins of the community can be traced to the the East India Company's policy to establish a mixed race population in 17th century India that would be Protestant and loyal to the the King and to the Company and perhaps also their long term employees natural wish to put down roots and start legitamate families."

So why are most Anglo-Indians Roman Catholic? There is no evidence that the AI community came about through a strategic plan. The way I see it is that there were three aspects to the formation of the community: 1) Intermarriages between royals and senior staff in the East India Company/British Government which were strategic military/territorial alliances (If my borther marries your sister it's unlikely you'll invade our princely state as we are now family) 2) Indian women getting pregnant by Europeans as a result of rape or consensual sexual encounters and 3) Natural marriages between western men settled in India who wanted to create roots there ...and agreeable Indian women.

I'll invite 212.219.145.102 to contribute to the discussion here as I intend reverting his/her edits to an earlier version of the article. Poweroid 15:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Official Definition"

The official definition of Anglo-Indian, however, is slightly wider: "Anglo-Indian means a person whose father or any of whose other male progenitors in the male line is or was of European descent but who is domiciled within the territory of India and is or was born within such territory of parents habitually resident therein and not established there for temporary purposes only". Under this definition, the mestiços (mixed Portuguese and Indian) of Goa are also included.

Where did this definition come from and how is this "official"? Can we cite some sources? AreJay 22:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

If we're trying to establish the credentials of who an Anglo-Indian is by citing an "official definition", then there should be an appropriate reference (preferably in-line) to that definition. AreJay 04:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useless link - remove?

Why is there a link to the article titled 'Superior Race' on this page? And thank goodness, the article has not yet been started! Gajamukhu 05:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Go ahead and remove it :) Poweroid 16:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calcutta

"What's with all the focus on Calcutta, Bandel, Hooghly?" Poweroid - Gosh, I don't think any serious student of British India would ask such a question. Calcutta was the capital of British India in the late 18th century, throughout the 19th century and right up until 1912. Founded in the 17th century, it was the capital of the first major province of the British empire in India. Bandel & Hooghly are now more or less part of greater Calcutta.Your critique that if we were to include Calcutta we would have to start including places like Trichy has no logic. As the political and economic centre of the British Raj, to discuss how events unfolded in Calcutta (which always had a knock on effect for the rest of British India) is quite logical and fair.

That should answer your question.

"There is no evidence that the Anglo-Indian community came about from anything other than simple inter-marriages/unions of British and Indians." Correct! Very very correct! I was not trying to say that the British did it on purpose, nevertheless the British were in fact fearful of this fanciful outcome. I have included proof of this from the highest possible source.

"I'm reverting to an older copy of the article." That was a bit heavy handed my friend. The "History" section was pretty pathetic and empty, it only really had a little to say about 1947. At least now it carries (for a second time) information about what was going on in the 19th century, or do you think that nothing is better than something? Even information re AI's in India's former British capital is better than nothing. You're free to rub out whatever you like, but the question is, can you replace my information with something better? If so - I would love to read it!

Anyway, I hope I've made it all clearer this time.

TB

TB, you've made some significant edits. They come from different IPs (as you haven't registered on wikipedia); maybe we could keep track of each other's edits if you do register.

I'm an AI from Ripon Lane (Off Elliot Road). I agree about the importance of Calcutta to the Raj. However, the focus of this article isn't the Raj, it's AIs, and they occur in considerable concentrations outside of Cal ... most of which cities don't even get a mention. If you wish to argue the history angle there is sizeable amount of history relating to AIs from outside Calcutta, their contributions to the world and to the AI condition. Without any of that the article is still very Calcutta focused. I don't have the heart to revert your current edit as you have obviously expended a large amount of time and effort. And I don't have the time to match your input with history of AIs from Hyderabad, Vizag, Khurda Rd, various TN raliway colonies, Agra, Delhi, Ranchi, the mining areas (how did so many get into mining anyway?) or cities now in Pakistan. Maybe I'll attempt a major revision to the article at another time.

>> or do you think that nothing is better than something

BTW, nothing can sometimes be better than too much :)

If you do register drop me a message in my talk area and we can maybe exchange emails. Poweroid 16:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joann Lumley

The article lists Joanna Lumley as Anglo-Indian. Is this so in the terms given at the beginning of the article: "of mixed British and Indian ancestry"?. Countersubject 21:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


I don't believe she IS Anglo-Indian. But I delete and people keep adding these names back with no proof :-( Poweroid 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David McMahon

Somebody keeps adding his name to the list of famous Anglo-Indians together with a link to his site. I don't think he's famous. Anyone has any info to suggest that he is? Poweroid 15:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Somebody do something about him! He's reverted at least 4-5 times. Poweroid 19:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About 212.219.145.125's substantial edits

1. If you disagree with the Indian Constitution's definition of Anglo-Indian feel free to tell us what definition you would like to use instead. But to ignore the "Anglo" part of Anglo-Indian and attempt to bunch a whole range of other minorities under the A.I. label neither makes sense nor is semantically / logically correct.

2. The deletion of large parts of material here and instructing readers to visit your site for that information could be construed as spam / vandalism.

I've reverted the article to an older version. Poweroid 15:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] .

>> Often Anglo-Indian can trace their origins to mean serving with serving in the East India Company and their policy to create a mixed race protestant community.

Two issues with that

1. I don't know any A.I. who can actually trace his origins that far with any degree of certainty. What's your source?

2. What's your source also for the claim that the EIC had a "policy" to "create a mixed race protestant community"?

>> However many Anglo-Indian also have Dutch, French, Danish or Portuguese bloodlines

No, they don't. Someone of mixed Dutch and Indian blood would be Dutch-Indian, not Anglo-Indian. There are various definitions of Anglo-Indian - from that of the All India Anglo Indian Association to that of the Indian Constitution - and none of them include decendants of assorted other European nationalities/cultures. I appreciate that these Eurasians who are not Anglo-Indians are even smaller in number than the A.I.s themselves and that aligning themselves with the A.I.s gives them numerous benefits - including access to preferentials seats in the Indian Legislative Assemblies and Parliament - but that does not co-opt them into a community and culture that is very distinct from their own.

Sure, you can take "Anglo" in the wider sense to mean Anglo-Saxon ethnicity but you may want to create a new term to encompass ALL Eurasians including the Anglo-Indian. The term, Anglo-Indian, however, is already taken and has a meaning and culture that goes back to before you were born :)

Poweroid 12:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Andrea Jane Williams

I've moved this entry here- it was improperly formatted and some quick googling doesn't convince me that this person is "notable".

[[Andrea Jane Williams]] - Miss Pakistan 1987 Miss Asia Beauty Pageant; Miss Pakistan in 1988 Miss Carribean and Commonwealth Pageant. Being the First Miss Pakistan before Pakistan objected to Beauty Pageant representation. Andrea Jane Williams is now an Indie singer songwriter.[http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/screen/7910]

Andrea Jane Williams is featured as a late entry page 197 in Asians in the 
Millenium first Edition.
I agree Poweroid 18:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

She may not be A list but she is a celebrity of sorts having made several guest appearances on tv in the early and late nineties. one of her pageant videos and her stage name Andicat appear at www.myspace.com/andicat1 and www.myspace.com/aphroditeskiss. I have followed her music career for a while. I was particularly interested in knowing she was anglo indian as i myself have some indian blood in me. Her great grandfather was Captain George Henry Garstin in the British navy and her gt grandmother Indian. Therefore she is an anglo indian as her family tree to date have been anglo indians marrying anglos.

Max Anglo Andicat Fan.

[edit] Reverting the Jagged85 edit

I am reverting the series of changes made by Jagged85. Many are cosmetic, one is made to create a reference link to an external site where no reference is needed, and others are factually incorrect. Also, the community can't have a British father; individuals in the community, however, can. Poweroid 13:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The only reference I cited was Dictionary.com, which gives dictionary definitions from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language and Webster's Dictionary. In what way do you feel that these English dictionaries could possibly be incorrect? Although the Western definitions of the term are a bit different to the Indian definition, both definitions should be mentioned. If you remove relevant information given from English dictionaries because you feel it is factually incorrect, then that would be original research, which should always be avoided on Wikipedia. However, this article in general lacks sources. This article would be more reliable if more references were added. Jagged 85 05:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indian emmigration to the UK and Canada

Discussion of why I am reverting the current text regarding the influx of Indians into the UK and Canada: While it's a perfectly valid claim that there have been several waves of immigration into the UK and that those immigrants have married locals and had children with them it is clear that these children do not form part of the Anglo-Indian community. You are free to make the assertions elsewhere in the article that there have been inter-marriages in the last 50 years. That fact is not disputed. Poweroid 14:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can, unless you can show sources discrediting my info, there is no reason for an objection. You’re presenting a one-sided view from Indian Laws, which was influenced historically influenced by the British to protect their Extremely Small Anglo-Indian Minority (0.00028 % / 100.00000 %). This does not represent the Past or Present actuality of the situation. Your trying to present a false illusion that ONLY Male British and Female Indians had kids, and that’s how it is. I’m not going to create a new section; the info is balanced and speaks for itself.

Cosmos416 15:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

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