Talk:Anglican Communion

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[edit] Anglican Church?

Is "Anglican Church" just another name for Church of England? If not, please don't just create a redirect. Even if it is just another name, it would be useful to explain a little about the phrase "Anglican Church" and its (semantic) relation to "Church of England." --LMS

I'm not quite sure what is most appropriate here. The original article was essentially about the history of the Church of England. I created a new entry called 'Anglicanism' discussing people and churches that follow the traditions of the Church of England and also explaining the use of 'Anglican' and 'Episcopalian' to describe such churches. Would it be better to rename that page to 'Anglican'?

The Anglican communion includes 60 million members outside the UK and is not the same as the Church of England (with a few million members in England). ----BozMo|talk 10:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it is important that Anglicanism as a set of doctrines and practices has its own entry, as should the Church of England which is the historical origin of these doctrines. However, 'Anglican church' in some contexts is part of the formal name of an institution (the Anglican Church of Australia, the Anglican Church of Canada etc) and in other contexts is used informally to describe, eg the Church of England. This suggests to me that 'Anglican' would be a more useful name, but I'll think about this a little more. --Claudine


"The ultimate head of any Anglican church is the Primate, head of the church at the national level" - this is wrong. The Archbishop of York is Primate of England but not "head of the church at the national level". Even on the assumption that it was only ever intended to refer to clerical positions, that is reserved for the Archbishop of Canterbury as Primate of All England (these are technical terms). PML.

As you said, "Primate of England" and "Primate of All England" are technical terms. The Archbishop of Canterbury is still the "Primate of the Church of England", the highest clerical position within the national church. (Although the article should mention that the Queen is the "Supreme Governor of the Church of England"). - Efghij 04:19, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What clarification would you suggest, that wouldn't simply add to the confusion? If nobody provides a good one soon, I'll have a stab at it myself. PML.

Let me get this straight, more than half of what is to be said about the Anglican church is a minor news item from the last few weeks? I think this article massively confuses current events with long-term significance. Daniel Quinlan 01:33, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. I think we should have a seperate article on Anglican views of homosexuality, where we could incorperate this as well as information on the Blessing of Same-Sex Unions. - Efghij 02:54, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yes, good call. Evercat 14:00, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have deleted the word Protestant. Please see discussions elsewhere. Although the Roman Catholic church sometimes describes the Church of England as Protestant it does not declare itself to be Protestant on its official website or anywhere. It does contain many Protestants but that is not the same thing. There are official websites declaring it to be Catholic and ones explaining why it is not Protestant (the latter are a bit scarse) but since on religions we abide by the principle that organisations can say what they are, I have deleted the word Protestant. I have not included the word Catholic since I do not want to start repeated reruns of the arguments on the Catholicism page. Historically it is a Catholic Schism from the time of Elizabeth the First. --BozMo|talk 10:02, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I also disagree with "The Archbishop of Canterbury is regarded as a symbolic leadership figure among many Anglican denominations, but does not hold formal authority and cannot be accurately compared to other religious leaders such as the pope." I think the position of the ABC wrt the AC (outside the CoE) is exactly the same as the pope wrt non Roman Catholic churches in communion with Rome? Albeit there is no belief in the infallibility ex cathedra and stuff--BozMo|talk 10:06, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You said something about efforts for reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. I think it would be good if there was either a link to a page directly adressing this or further discussion of the efforts on this page.

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[edit] Cleanup tag

I changed the cleanup tag (added by User:JW1805) from Template:Cleanup-tone to Template:cleanup-rewrite to make clear that nobody is suggesting that the tone is unfair or unprofessional. The problem, rather, is that the rather florid 1911 Britannica text on which it is based remains entirely undigested. I'm gonna be working on this; feel free to help. Doops | talk 18:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Whilst I agree this article needs work, I fele to say it needs a complete re-write is unfair. Are you sayin you feel that the entire article needs a change in writing style? Tompw 19:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

No; but the bulk of the article is undigested 1911 Britannica; those portions need a complete rewrite. Furthermore, they are far too long; this makes the article unreadable. Finally, the article is rather short on current information. I don't interpret "complete rewrite" as meaning that every bit needs to be re-wrtiten -- but every bit needs to be examined. Doops | talk 20:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree, a "substantial" rewrite is necessary.--JW1805 20:11, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the tag, as our recent efforts have given us a page free of 1911 text, which was the original reason for the notice. There are still things imperfect about the page — the vagueness at the end of the history section, the rather "tacked-on"-feeling little sections at the end about current controversies & RC relations — but it's a lot clearer now without all that gobbledygook. Doops | talk 21:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] biased language

In the first sentence of the final paragraph of "What holds the communion together?" appears ...for certain liberal steps they have taken unilaterally.

The words "liberal" and "unilaterally" are both strongly biased towards a certain (for wont of a better word) conservative viewpoint. In particular, the idea whether the steps taken by the American and Canadian churches could be properly defined as "unilateral" is hotly debated.

I would suggest replacing these with more factual and non-biased descriptions.

Yeah, you see, lemme explain: I am a liberal and I wrote that sentence originally. You can chalk it up partially to an earnest desire to be fair to the other side; but there's another reason too: those two words are convenient shorthand. In attempting to respond to your request today (with two different versions successively -- check the edit history), I rediscovered the fact that attempts to use scrupulously NPOV language make that bit considerably longer. There are two downsides to that: firstly, it gives the conservatives a bigger and more prominent stage; and moreover that § ("what holds the commmunion together?") should be about structures, not issues. Anyway, do you like my revised version? Doops | talk 16:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, and yes - I think the revised version reads in a much more neutral, well-balanced manner.

Under "Recent Controversies", it referred to the controversies being over "biblical authority", which is POV. The debate is not over the authority of scripture, but its interpretation. No church in Communion disagrees that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but not all agree that it condemns homosexuality. Carolynparrishfan 13:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] QEII and Church of Scotland

I believe the British monarch is the supreme governor of the Church of England and also an ordinary member of the Church of Scotand. I wonder: does QEII ever attend an Anglican church in Scotland, and is her status as an ordinary member of the Church of Scotland one that may be assumed by any member of the Church of England? Laurel Bush 15:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC).

I don't know if the Queen ever attends the Scottish Episcopal Church. I don't think there is a legal impediment from her doing so. I am fairly certain that a member of the C of E would have to formally convert if they wanted to become a member of the Church of Scotland, but I don't know what that process would be. A member of the Church of Scotland who wanted to convert to C of E (or SEC in Scotland) would have to be confirmed by an Anglican bishop.Rockhopper10r 19:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Not quite the story I am getting in Talk:Church of Scotland#Church and monarch. However, I do get the impression that the idea of QEII as an ordinary member of the Church of Scotland is a bit of official fiction, that her real persstatus in that church is quite special and privileged. Laurel Bush 10:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC).

Rockhopper is wrong. You do not need to convert to join the Church of Scotland. The Church recognises baptism of all Christian denominations, and will admit any Christian into full membership. Normally, if someone has been a member otr 'confirmed' in another denomination, the local Kirk Session will be willing to admit them to the role of the congregation without any further vows or rites. Member of the Church of Scotland do not have to be presbyterians (elders do), they only have to be Christians. --Doc ask? 10:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
From an Anglican POV, an Anglican going before a Presbyterian Session to request admittance into a congregation could very well be seen as converting.Rockhopper10r 14:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Fine, but that's an Anglican POV. Actually it is a lot less formal that 'going before a Kirk Sesson', mostly (and it happens all the time) folk jusy 'I'd like to be a member' and the minister says OK (with the Session rubberstamping at the next meeting). If that's converting, I'm not sure what it is converting to or from? I even know of one Church of Scotland minister who is also an ordained Anglican priest - that's more unusual, but not problematic. --Doc ask? 15:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Still seems to leave QEII in a somewhat special position, by which the Church of Scotland gets some guarantee/protection of its status as the national church. Also, wondering whether QEII is listed on any particular role. Laurel Bush 11:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC).

It does leave the Church in a special position with regards to the law, but not the Queen in regard to the church. (The Kirk gets the best of both worlds, recognised and protected, but not answerable). I'm not sure what the answer is to the second questions - interesting thought. --Doc ask? 11:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

A quote from Doric Loon in Talk:Church of Scotland#Queen's status which seems to me to make some sense of the situation: The "ordinary member" bit is a reference to a famous speech by John Knox, and sure, that is slightly propagandistic. The Queen is respected by the Church as the head of the secular establishment which the church acknowledges. That means she IS special. But on an entirely different plain from her importance in Church of England thinking. Laurel Bush 12:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC).

My current understanding re QEII and the Church of Scotland is as follows:

The monarch is recognised as a member of the Church of Scotland, but whether she is listed on the role of any particular congregation (like any other member) is unclear.
The monarch has no position in the Church equivalent to that of Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Which means, for example, that she has no role in appointments to office within the Church of Scotland.
The monarch is sworn to protect the Church of Scotland, and the Church is recognised as the "National Church".
The monarch or her representative is routinely invited to speak at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, an invitation not routinely extended to a simple member of the Church or member of the general public.
There is a widespread but questionable belief that the monarch is a simple or ordinary member of the Church of Scotland. The monarch is not the Supreme Governor, anything like it, but she does appear to have a special position, representing or symbolising the relationship between Church and State or the status of the Church with respect to the State.

Laurel Bush 17:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] "recent" anonymous edits

This page dosn't have a lot of editing activity, but two different IPs edited the same paragraph to read the same way. The material added seems highly POV and is not supported by references. I dispute its factual basis. I reverted the material back to the immediately preceeding edit. The most recent such edits are here Ruidh 20:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Practicing"

Efforts have been underway at least since 1966 to effect a reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church, focusing on theological issues [2] and ways "to further the convergence on authority in the Church. Without agreement in this area we shall not reach the full visible unity to which we are both committed." [3] Since that time, two major developments in the Anglican Communion have rendered such reconciliation virtually impossible, at least in the near future, namely, the ordination of women and the ordination of (and approval of) practicing homosexuals.

The term "practicing homosexual" can be construed as very offensive and patronizing to GLBT persons. I'm not quite sure to word this without using it. "Noncelibate" doesn't sound much better and, honestly, "homosexual" in and of itself can be problematic. Any suggestions?Rockhopper10r 20:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Refusing to ordain "noncelibate people" (whether homo- or heterosexual) would seem to be an impediment for the Roman Church in its quest to be reconciled with its Anglican counterpart. Rome does not ordain "practicing heterosexuals" either.--Bhuck 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Not entirely correct. In some circumstances, the RCC will ordain married males if it is understood that no furture marriage is possible. For example, there is a program to ordain clergy who leave the member churches of the anglican Communion to join the RCC. The RCC also ordains married deacons. I think that non-celibate is the best term as long as it is understood that celibacy is sexual bahavior consistant with one's state of marriage. An alternative is chaste. Ruidh 16:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Anglicanism

A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers!

[edit] Thirty-Nine Articles binding?

This phrase that may be confusing to naive readers like me:

These Articles, while never binding, have had an influence on the ethos of the Communion,...

The Subscription (Thirty-Nine Articles) Act (1571) sounds binding to me, but then, as I said, I am not a historian nor a church lawyer. Was it not binding to both assent to and read aloud the Articles ? What do the better secondary sources say? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 07:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Clergy had been required to assent to the articles upon their ordination for many years. Assent had never been required of the laity. A 1968 Lambeth COnference resolution recommended making the assent to the articles no longer mandatory for clergy.Ruidh 14:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words tag

This has been placed over the article as a whole, it would seem, but the editor who has placed it has failed to note here what the perceived difficulties are. In the absence of such, any problems cannot be reviewed or corrected since I don't believe any of us are mind readers. In the absence of such information, I will remove the tag. Fishhead64 18:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the tag to an in-line one. My concern was with the phrase "It is estimated ..." when there is no attribution. Who is "it"? I doubt that the source is from The Addams Family's Cousin Itt. The verbal phrase "is estimated that" too often equals "guess". According to Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words:

“Either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.”

Another solution:

“a) to name a source for the opinion or b) to change opinionated language to concrete facts”

Either way, citing a source is essential in a project like Wikipedia.

Cheers. Wassupwestcoast 02:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anglican Church Schisms

Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia not a blog. While controversies exist, Anglican Communion should discuss those churches in communion only. Otherwise, why don't we include the Baptists, Methodists and Quakers in the Anglican Communion. All three are schismatic from the 17th and 18th century Church of England.

Cheers. (Stirring the pot where I can.) Wassupwestcoast 02:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is more appropriately discussed in Anglicanism. If someone wants to include information about schismatic movements within Anglicanism, that'd be the place to do it. Fishhead64 21:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What holds the Communion together?

English culture? -Ste|vertigo 21:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Tape. Fishhead64 21:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pentecostals

They have been listed as the third largest "communion" - are they a communion? I thought they were a branch of Protestantism. Fishhead64 02:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm... so is Anglicanism. Or at least it seems so to many Anglicans. I don't think that Pentecostals are organized enough to be identified as a communion, and I'm not sure that they outnumber Anglicans around the world. They're clearly growing quickly, though. -- BPMullins | Talk 03:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexual ordination and realignment of the Communion

This sub-section and the link Anglican realignment is off-topic. The section repeats much of what is found at Anglican realignment. It is best placed in Anglican realignment. The article is about the Anglican Communion: worldwide. A single-interest U.S.-centric schismatic debate seems out of place. Some of this might appear in Anglicanism but not here. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 17:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


What is the problem here? You seem he!! bent on covering up this information on main articles as if this were something that wasn't happening? Perhaps you are ashamed of homosexual ordination or something. But, it is an essential element for understanding the Anglican Communion today. This material in now way can be removed from this article! This is not single-interest and not US only. If TEC splits, the Church in Canada will likely follow as well as New Zealand. The CofE is poised for a split which has already been threatened by the Evangelicals. Read up on the Covenant for the Church of England which was delivered to the ABC on Dec. 17, the same day the Virginia parishes voted to separate. That was a threat of schism.

Before you go about editing willy-nilly on these topics, you really need to educate yourself on them!129.74.165.42 03:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Wassupwestcoast, and think your response to his comments was rather disrespectful. I also think your edit changing the heading is a good example of sensationalism. The realignment issue is more complex than "homosexual ordination." --Anietor 05:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
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