Talk:Ancient Greece

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[edit] Clarification

An expert needs to check out the Ancient Greece article which has a VERY different date for when Ancient Greece came to an end. (Just call me a stirrer :-)).

Yikes...that should have been redirected here before Gerald started working on it. I see Adam Carr has brought up some problems on the Ancient Greece talk page, so you could check there for the answer, but basically, although there may be many ways to determine the end date of "ancient Greece," 1453 is definitely not the right one. Adam Bishop 14:49, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think it's safe to say that "ancient Greece" also didn't end with the rise of Christianity, especially if were going to discriminate between "ancient" and "Hellenistic", as is done in the table on the main page. It should be something more like the death of Alexander.rmagill 14:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I am referring to the introduction, instead of the section, "Chronology". rmagill 14:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to merge History of Ancient Greece into Ancient Greece and History of Hellenistic Greece into Hellenistic Greece? Almost all the links point to the shorter titles, but almost all the content is in the longer ones. Most other national history articles have no distinction between the period and its history. - SimonP 16:17, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Both Ancient Greece and Hellenistic Greece are very short, and can be merged with ease. dab 17:05, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I believe it would be possible, though I strongly keep my hypothesis that Ancient Greece definetely ended with the rule of the Roman Empiresince their government, economical system, and social system changed, but we can still argue of the AthenianAncient Greece or the Spartan, since they were very different one from another. Cotopimp 15:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Peloponnesian War

This section needs a major rewrite.

"After several years of inconclusive campaigning, the moderate Athenian leader Nicias concluded the Peace of Nicias (421)."

- The death of Cleon might have had something to do with this...

"Nicias was captured and Alcibiades went into exile."

- First problem: this makes it look like Nicias was captured, paraded through Sparta, given a nice farm in the western Peloponnese and died peacefully in his bed. Actually, the Syracusans put him to death (albeit against the wishes of Gylippus).

- Second problem: this makes it look like Alcibiades went into exile because of the failure of the expedition. No note is taken of the events of the night before the expedition set out (the mutilation of the Herms), the politicking surrounding those events, that Alcibiades was recalled to face trial before he ever reached Sicily, and that he went into exile, first in Sparta, then in Persian Asia Minor, to avoid death at the hands of his political enemies back in Athens.

- Third problem: no mention of the other general, Demosthenes.

- Another issue (which doesn't fit anywhere): no mention is made that the Sicilian Expedition lasted until 413 - reading the article makes it seem like it took place quickly over the Summer of 415.

"This was the turning point of the war."

- No it wasn't. Thucydides wants it to be (just look at how he structures his history), but it simply does not fit with historical evidence. Firstly, the war goes on for the best part of a decade after the failure of the Sicilian Expedition. Secondly, the Spartans failed to capitalise on the victory, allowing Athens vital time to rebuild her navy. Thirdly, Athens had the upper hand once Alcibiades had returned. Fourthly, that however badly the war was going, Athens could not lose unless she lost the ability to ship in grain, an ability not lost until the Battle of Aegospotami (where Alcibiades pops up again, telling them not to put their ships there...).


-Bold textActually, Bold textthe Sicilian Expedition is regarded by most historians as the turning point in the 27-year long Peloponesian War. In response to your points, it is quite obvious that had Athens not lost such an amount of man power (possibly 100000 men) or as many ships (possibly 250) or even the city's greatest general, Alkibiades, she would have won the war. Athens would have been guartenteed a quick victory over the rest of Sicily as well, seeing that Syracuse was the only formidable opponent on the whole island. The treasures in Sicily would have amounted to interminable grain amounts and the riches and man power of almost a whole country. For the tedious Pelopenesian War, this would have been quite a grab. You mention that the Spartans did not capitalise on the victory they did receive in Sicily. (It should be noted that the Spartans only sent one man-Gyllipus-to Syracuse. The victory was the Syracusans.)The Spartans are not a capitalising society. They do not possess the necessary mindset to win a victory and the reap the benefits of it. And to your third point, the Athenians never held the complete advantage ever again. She ended up scrounging for ships and was put to the mercy of Sparta's only effective general, Lysander. P.S. Don't undermine the histories of Thucydides.


"The loss of her fleet threatened Athens with bankruptcy."

- This is a rather anchronistic point of view.

"Within a few years the democratic party regained power in Athens and other cities."

- Nice gloss over the Thirty. Perhaps some more detail is due.

- More seriously, the division of Greek history between the 5th and 4th Centuries at 404 BC is rather outdated. The gap between the second and third parts of the Peloponnesian War* in 423 (or 421 if we're going on formalities) - 418 (or 415 if we're going on formalities) demonstrates that there were indeed gaps of several years in open hostilities. The gap between the third Peloponnesian War (418-404) and the Corinthian War (396-387/6) was arguably merely one of those lulls. The Athens-Sparta struggle was the major issue until the King's Peace of 387/6. Perhaps the section should be on the Peloponnesian Wars (including the Cornthian War).

- * there was a First Peloponnesian War 461-446.

Well, you are welcome to fix it yourself...to be fair, this is really just a brief outline, and there are many more details in the Peloponnesian War and related articles (although with your knowledge of these events, you can probably fix those as well, that would be very helpful!). Adam Bishop 20:00, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Two comments:

1. Pederasty in ancient Greece. Obviously this is a controversial point (or will become one eventually), & while I'm aware of enough scholarly rumors that this (like homosexuality) was practiced far more openly in Classical times than now, I'm requesting that someone document the known facts about this. (All mentions of pederasty in pre-Medieval times that I can recall off the top of my head date much later than this period.)

And I'm very sceptical that pederasty was practiced to limit population growth. On the one hand, infant mortality, disease, warfare, & food insecurity were more than sufficient to keep population growth low (& I remember reading that when a city was overpopulated, the citizens would choose a number of colonists by lot, & send them off to found a new city). On the other hand, I doubt that the number of adults sexually attracted to children in ancient times was larger than it is now, & also doubt that the ancients practiced birth control to consciously limit population on a significant scale. I would need to see some evidence of that motivation.

2. Isn't the subject of Alexander's exploits irrelevant to this article? A brief account showing how it brought the Greece of the city states to an end, though, is relevant, but as the section now stands, it would be better moved to the article on Hellenistic Greece. -- llywrch 18:37, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree regarding pederasty, it is a disputed and speculative subject which is based on twisted interpretations taken out of context. Links from here to homosexual discussion pages are irrelevant and inappropriate.

Didn't the democracy end with a vote in -411? Then resinstated in -410 until -405, with Alcibiades's death in -404? -- Anonymous. 11:47, 25 Jan 2005


Exactly how is it possible that Peloponnesian War is a featured article, yet the Peloponnesian War section of Ancient Greece has a boilerplate for disputed facts? Truly, I am at a loss. Eric Herboso 03:20, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] why no mathe subjects

Isn't the punic war part of Greece? Or is it part of rome?

The Punic Wars were 3 battles fought between Rome and Carthage [in 500's AD??] over control of trade in the Mediterranean. The third war was the one between Hannibal, using elephants to cross the Alps and gain advantage of Rome, and Scipio, a great Roman general.

They were in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, actually, and Hannibal was involved in the Second war. Anyway, Hannibal did flee to the Greek world, and Rome was involved in a war against the people shelering him, but this is after the period of "Ancient Greece". Adam Bishop 15:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ancient Greece

³wHAT KIND OF ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE IF YOU WERE A POLITICIAN DURING THE PERSIAN WARS? OR DURING DAILY DAYS IN GREECE? IN ATHENS?

--69.86.162.116 01:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)IN ATHENS, AN ASSEMBLY WAS HELD THREE OR FOUR TIMES A MONTH. POLICIES THAT ARE SUBMITTED TO THE ASSEMBLY WERE DECIDED ON BY THE COUNCIL, A GROUP OF 500 MEN. FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES, CITIZENS OF ATHENS WERE DIVIDED INTO TEN TRIBES. --69.86.162.116 01:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

ÁÝýÈÓòÙË&ĚßߌØÅøÆœ69.86.162.116 01:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)éíÍÉúÀÂËöÇñßÐðþÞ³²°°01:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)~

[edit] Sparta

"In Sparta, the landed artistocracy retained their power, and the constitution of Lycurgus (about 650) entrenched their power and gave Sparta a permanent militarist regime under a dual monarchy. Sparta dominated the other cities of the Peloponnese, and formed alliances with Corinth and Thebes."

No discussion of Spartan historical development can be made without reference to the conquest of the Messenians and the system of helotry. Someone, find a way to work this in!

[edit] Conclusions from modern genetic analysis

Present day researchers (PubMed, Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. For questions, please e-mail: aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es) analyzing the genetic heritage of Greeks and Macedonians have concluded:

  1. The genetic heritage of Macedonians is distinctly Old Mediterranean, as are Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians.
  2. Greeks do not fit in the above lineage. They are entirely different.
  3. Greeks have been found to share a genetic lineage mostly resembling that of Sub-Saharan Ethiopians, with almost a dozen identical "quasi-specific" alleles. Genetically, Greeks resemble Ethiopian/Sub-Saharan groups more so than to any other Old Mediterranean group, with data clustering "in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt" [1]

[edit] Regarding the above post, one reader responded by deleting it and writing:

Afrocentric bias
I notice that you systematically promote typically Afrocentric views about ancient Egypt and other civilizations that are believed to have been "Africoid" in Afrocentric circles (Olmec, Sumer, Indus Valley, and even Greece). Your citing of a widely discredited study by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena that claims Greeks are genetically related to Ethiopians is a particularly egregious example of your bias, as the study contradicts all other genetic research on Greeks and has been heavily criticized by other population geneticists (see [2]). Yet you dishonestly cited the article as if it were the only and last word. This is not an isolated occurence; to prop up your self-serving opinions you scour the entire corpus of literature to find a single source that might support your point, and proceed to cite it without mentioning that the views presented therein are not in the mainstream. - Dave Lowen ([62.121.100.26])

That is a hoax you're reading. The actual Spanish research mentions nothing about any "Macedonians", and simply detects that ancient Greeks arrived in the Balkans by 2000 BC. The part about "Macedonians" and "Ethiopians" was added by Macedonian Slavic propagandists who made their own version of the research and spread it on the internet. So it's not an afro-centric view, it's a political propaganda. Miskin 09:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement drive

The article on Greek literature is currently nominated on Wikipedia: This week's improvement drive. Vote for it there, if you want to support the article.--Fenice 20:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contributor Roylee then responded:

Referencing and quoting an external link:
Regarding comments on the study by Spanish geneticist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, which showed that a large number of Greek HLA alleles -- those genes which are known to determine resistance to disease -- cluster with Ethiopians and sub-Saharan Africans, it is important to note that the Arnaiz paper which deals with Macedonia and Greece is called "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" and published in the magazine Tissue Antigens February 2001, vol. 57, no. 2, pp. 118-127, while the article from which Pontikos has extracted his quote refers to a completely separate article which appeared in Nature magazine, dealing with a debate about how Jews and Palestinians are closely related. The quote Pontikos is using does not even refer to the Greek-Macedonian study, but instead another one dealing with genetic differences between Palestinians and Jews. It is therefore nothing less than a deliberate misrepresentation to project personal criticism of a report comparing Jews and Palestinians onto a separate report comparing Greeks and Macedonians, even if some of the data is cross-referenced. As a matter of fact:
  • The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in many papers and in all the subsequent international workshops since the First International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1970).
  • HLA gene frequencies correlates with geographically related populations; the existence or absence of gene flow among neighbours may be assessed with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances. (sources: Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32; and Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820).
  • The HLA system has been shown to be very polymorphic, able to be compared among ethnic groups and useful to distinguish populations (HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259-68).
  • Scientific articles citing HLA genes as useful forensic to track populations:
Imanishi T, Wakisaka A, Gojobori T. Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32.
Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820.
Izaabel H, Garchon HJ, Caillat-Zucman S et al. HLA class II DNA polyhiorphism in a Moroccan population from the Souss, Agadir area, Tissue Antigens 1998:51: 106-10.
Arguello R, Avakian H, Goldman JM, Madrigaij A. A novel method for simultaneous high resolution identification of HLA-A, HLA-B, and HLA-Cw alleles, Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1996:93:10961-5.
Kimura A, Sasazuki T. Eleventh International Histocompatibility Workshop reference protocol for the HLA-DNA typing technique, in Tauji K, Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 397-419.
Bignon JD, Fernandez-Vif MA. Protocols of the 12th International Histocompatibiity Workshop for typing of HLA class II alleles by DNA amplification by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and hybridization with sequence-specific oligonucleotide probes (SSOP), in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol I. Paris: EDK, 1997: 584-95.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Estimation of allele and ha frequencies for HLA and complement loci, in Tsuji K Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 76-9.
Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Allele and haplotype frequencies for HLA and complement loci in various ethnic groups, in Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992:1065-220.
Mehra MC, Rajalingam R, Kanga U et al. Genetic diversity of HLA in the populations of India, Sri Lanka and Iran, in Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 314-20.
Roitberg-Tambur A, Witt CS, Friedmann A et al. Comparative analysis of HLA polymorphism at the serologic and molecular level in Moroccan and Ashkenazi Jews, Tissue Antigens 1995: 46: 104-10.
Martinez-Laso J, Gazit E, Gómez-Casado E et al. HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: comparison with other Mediterraneans, Tissue Antigens 1996: 47:63-71.
Degas L Dausset J. Human migrations and linkage disequilibrium of HLA system, Immunogenetics 1974: 1: 195—210.
  • Arnaiz-Villena has published a huge number of scientific articles, all dealing with HLA genes and their ability to track population. Only one of the several hundred papers published bearing his name has been "retracted" by the scienitific community (as you may find noted at the bottom of the web page linked here). HLA alleles are race specific. Central to Pontikos' criticism of Arnaiz is the assertion that HLA Alleles are not race specific. Unfortunately for Pontikos, they are, and the scientific evidence for this is overwhelming. See bottom of web page: [3].
In summary: Pontikos' argument is intellectually twisted, leading many readers to wrong conclusions. PubMed already knows about his criticisms, and they already recognize the deception. Unfortunately, many are still falling victim to the distortion. The above information was and is correct and accurate. Sincerely, Roylee
Roylee, I believe you have either not read all of Pontikos refrences on this subject or you just simply chosen to ignore them. Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza clearly site Antonio Arnaiz-Villena false work regarding the Greek-Macedonian study in the Greeks are related to Ethiopians and east Africans found that same article sited on Pontikos site, which can be found in the link below, and I quote Neil Risch:
The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute. We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit. Neil Risch
Secondly what you seem to be missing is that accroding to the statement above by Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, they are cleary discredited all of Antonio Arnaiz-Villena HLA genetic marker, in other words his work on the Macedonian-Greeks research too, which btw, is highly suspect since it was also co-written by two FyROMian researchers. ~~Mallaccaos, 13 February 2006

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[edit] Way of Life

Could somebody bring that section back? Why was it deleted?

(anonymous)
isn't the same text under the headings "Society" and "Social structure"? --Wetman 21:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"Society" gave an intro to the section and "Social Structure" talked about slaves and different classes. "Way of Life" talked about the Greek home and daily life. Who deleted it? --24.247.126.44 16:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi! It was removed by a vandal, but I've just restored it. Aldux 22:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

could some one expand on this "The distinguishing features of Ancient Greek society were the division between free and slave, the differing roles of men and women, the relative lack of status distinctions based on birth, and the importance of religion. The way of life of the Athenians was common in the Greek world compared to Sparta's special system." especially the part about woman and importance of religion. P.S. Religion is mentioned one time in this article in the above sentence and "women" or "woman" is only mentioned once or twice more Thanks. (69.139.32.33 04:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Alexander's Conquests

Did Alexander conquer Arabia ? No mention is given of that. He did conquer some parts like Mesopotamia and Persia, which are today Arab lands.

Red Hot Sheena|talk 04:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Before the Arab conquests in the 7th century AD (or as the Arabs prefer to call it The Arab-Islamic Liberation) Arabia was the Arab peninsula only. It begun on the land of the Navatean Arabs, that would be Jordan which was not part of Alexander's conquest. He did have a campaign to conquer Arab peninsula set to take place two days after his death Ikokki 21:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obviate

Could you explain how obviate is correct? The word obviate is a verb, meaning to avoid or go around. Wikt. def. In that sentence, (The obviate cause was the growing resentment of Sparta and its allies at the dominance of Athens over Greek affairs.) it is used as an adjective modifying cause and obvious (an adjective) makes much more grammatical sense. Just a friendly question. pschemp | talk 17:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that as well, I guess obviate is not the right word...but whatever the word is, it is supposed to contrast with "immediate", and "obvious" is also not the right word. The immediate cause is one thing, the specific event of Corinth and its colonies, but there is a deeper cause in the background. What's the word for that? Adam Bishop 18:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
How about "underlying"? pschemp | talk 19:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I guess that would work. Adam Bishop 05:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Aren't the third and fourth paragraphs about the dates for various periods somewhat contradicting? --Simonf 01:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know...is the third paragraph talking about how the modern Greeks see it, and the fourth about how everyone else sees it? Adam Bishop 05:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] how did theatre begin in ancient greece

[edit] Years

The intro says this period lasted about a thousand years, but the timeline on the side says it lasted 453 years.

Yeah - well "Ancient Greece" does last for a thousand years. The timeline is wrong really in the fact that what it calls "ancient greece" should be split into "Archaic Greece" and "Classical Greece" - Would anyone object to this change? Pjmc 13:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In Greek schoolbooks Greek history is divided into
  • Prehistory-Protohistory: up 800 BC (more or less the time oh Homer)
  • Ancient History: 800 BC to 330 AD (foundation of Constantinople)
  • Byzantine History: 330 AD - 1453 AD
  • Modern History: 1453 AD to Today
Ancient History then gets divided into
  • Geometric Era: 800 BC - 600 BC
  • Archaic Era: 600 BC - 479 BC
  • Classical Era: 479 BC - 323 BC
  • Hellenistic Era: 323 BC - 30 BC
  • Greco-Roman Era: 146 BC - 330 AD
The last two overlap. Having an article called ancient Greece that does not include the last 6 centuries of ancient history seems very strange to me Ikokki 22:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

--- "Ancient greece existed only for 900000000 years". Someone who knows how long it actually lasted should fix this. 129.97.22.140 20:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Rahul

Fixed it, thanks. Adam Bishop 21:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What are all of the languages of Greece?

[edit] Bibliography misleading?

An editor recently removed the two entries in the bibliography section, leaving an edit summary of "Deleted link for being misleading". I've restored the two entries, but if they are misleading it would be best to discuss the reasons for that here. Robotman1974 01:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Classical Period

While ancient Greece may be loosely termed Classical Greece, the phrase “Classical Greece” or “Classical period” (in Greece) has the very specific meaning of c. 480 to 323 BCE in the fields of Archaeology and Art History. I have noted that there are small articles on the Archaic period in Greece or Hellenistic (period), but that the link Classical period in Greece is redirected to this article. This is a most unfortunate circumstance as the concept of this period as a precise timeframe is in wide use in professional discussions of the art, architecture, and history of Greece. I would strongly urge that this be rectified and that all of the periods be standardized under the format (X period in Greece), including: Orientalizing, Geometric, Archaic, Classical, and (perhaps) Hellenistic. Each of these articles should contain a discussion of the relevant architectural developments, pottery techniques, and brief historical overview - with reference to major archaeological sites and finds. Ideas? --Nefasdicere 19:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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