Talk:Anže Kopitar

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What about the exactly date of birth as anywhere else? AN 04:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Born Where?

Lately, two users have been reverting Kopitar's place of birth from Jesenice, Slovenia, to -- get ready for this -- Jesenice, Yugoslavia. Their reasoning for this bizarre move? Well, they claim that Slovenia was not an independent country at the time, and that those acknowledged history experts at WikiProject Ice Hockey say that places of birth should only refer to countries that existed at the time (never mind that Kopitar is a Slovenian first and a hockey player second). I, however, am strongly in favor of keeping the reference to Jesenice, Slovenia (or changing it to "Jesenice, Slovenia, then a part of Yugoslavia" or something similar) for the following reasons:

1.) Slovenia was around as a constituent republic within Yugoslavia back then. If we are listing people as being from "Toronto, Ontario" or "Glasgow, Scotland", then "Jesenice, Slovenia" shouldn't be a problem, even when talking about pre-1991 births.

2.) Referring to "Jesenice, Yugoslavia" is confusing to the general reader who doesn't know that Jesenice is a town in Slovenia. For all he/she knows, the person could have been born in, say, Serbia, and immigrated to to Slovenia later on. There's simply no indication that the person was born on Slovenian soil, which is an important fact.

3.) A reader interested in history can check out the Jesenice article and read about the details of town's history, including the fact that it was formally a part of Yugoslavia in 1987.

4.) Almost all Slovenians born between 1945 (the creation of Slovenia within Yugoslavia) and 1991 (the creation of an independent Slovenia) have Slovenia listed as their place of birth -- sometimes with "then a part of Yugoslavia" added. Here are a few examples: Denis Zvegelj, Iztok Čop, Rok Petrovič, Martin Strel, Peter Mankoč, Sasha Vujačić, Branko Oblak, Zlatko Zahovič, Luka Spik, Uroš Slokar, Sašo Ožbolt, Primož Brezec, Goran Dragić, Mitja Kunc, and many, many more. Changing this now would go against years of common Wikipedia practice for Slovenians born between 1945 and 1991.

Until a broad consensus -- one that includes Slovenian Wikipedians -- is reached, Yugoslavia should not be listed next to Jesenice without a mention of Slovenia. Please refrain from further reverts without justifying them here and addressing all four of my arguments. Have a nice day. WorldWide Update 09:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion: if a sportsperson achieved significant results at the time when there was still Yugoslavia, it should be mentioned. If the sportsperson is active now, you should just write Slovenia. According to the present situation, when we fill in the country of birth on Slovenian papers, we always state Slovenia, never Yugoslavia. And I suppose it is the same in the other former republics. --Tone 11:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tone. If the person was born in Slovenia and represents (or has represented) post-independence Slovenia, then the fact that Slovenia was technically a part of Yugoslavia at the time of his/her birth is of far lesser significance than the fact that the person is from Slovenia and was born on Slovenian soil, regardless of its formal international status at the time. Finally a voice of reason here! WorldWide Update 12:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi WWU. In good faith, I'll ignore the condescending tone you utilized here and on my talk page.

1) I would prefer the forms "Glasgow, United Kingdom" and "Toronto, Ontario, Canada" for your examples. Provinces and States are needed in Canada and the US for disambiguation (see WP:PLACES). There are others: Japan and Australia come to mind quickly. If you can produce Yugoslavia era envelopes that are addressed in the form "street address, Slovenia, Yugoslavia", then, by all means I'll be for adding it into the bylines, etc.

2) Its says he was born in Jesenice. If the reader is interested, one click will immediately inform them that Jesenice is a town and a municipality in Slovenia

3)see 2

4) see Ante Marković, Ivan Ribar, anyone born in the former Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia, etc...

a part of Yugoslavia at the time of his/her birth is of far lesser significance Please don't revise history. No one here is denying Slovenia. Don't deny Yugoslavia. Again please understand the differences between a state (a political entity) and a nation (cultural entity). The Balkans are the textbook example used in pol sci classes. Kopitar is a Slovenian born in the state of Yugoslavia. A few years later, Slovenians became their own state (a Nation-state if you will). Understanding these concepts will help you understand what Stephen Harper meant when he recognized Quebec as a "nation within a united Canada." It is an extremely obvious statement with no new significance. ccwaters 14:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I see the debate is developing. I don't think the idea is to deny that we were part of Yugoslavia once. Within Yugoslavia, the Socialist republic of Slovenia existed and the present country is the direct succesor of it. My point was that the people we discuss now are completely unrelated to Yugoslavia, except for being born when Slovenia was a part of it. From the other side, you can say an article like: Jure Franko was the first sportsmen to win a medal for Yugoslavia at winter olympics. Here, the mention of the country is of course important. And besides, if anyone is interested in details, it is obvious from the birth year what was the country at that time. It is a part of history, so if anyone is interested in further reading, it is one click away. But I find it redundant to be mentioned in the articles without any connection to it. Again, this is just my opinion. --Tone 14:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I just saw that Yugoslavia is not mentioned in the first sentence of Jure Franko article. Now we can argue about that :-) --Tone 14:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I skimmed through a lot of political figures' bios and noticed that the country was omitted in quite of few. If that was meant to side step this very issue, then its a disservice to wiki. Anyway, The "Socialist republic of Slovenia" had no more sovereignty or international recognition than the Georgian SSR or any other Soviet Socialist Republic in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. I'm fine with bylines in the form "city, Yugoslavia (now Slovenia)". However I firmly hold my stance that stating Yugoslavia as the country of birth is formally correct. ccwaters 15:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Ccwaters, I'm not sure that I can find any examples of Yugoslav-era envelopes being addressed to "Slovenia, Yugoslavia" on the Web, but that's because I don't think that there are many scans of Yugoslav-era mail on the Web period. I do remember that my family always used "Slovenia, Yugoslavia" when addressing mail from abroad and that I've seen plenty of such examples on old postcards. And you would be hard-pressed to find, say, tourist brochures for Slovenian town from that era that did not reference both Slovenia and Yugoslavia. When I say that the fact that Slovenia was "a part of Yugoslavia at the time of his/her birth is of far lesser significance", I'm not denying anything, just stating that -- in a present-day context -- that is less important than the fact that the person was born in Slovenia. That's what makes Ante Marković different: He is most well-known for his political activity in Yugoslavia, not for his present-day status -- in other words, he is a historic figure. Mind you, it's not the additional inclusion of Yugoslavia that I find problematic, but the exclusion of Slovenia (regardless of the person's nationality or ethnicity), as if no such entity existed at the time. The Yugoslav Constitution of 1974, still effective in the 1980s, specifically referred to Slovenia as a state. You say that Kopitar "is a Slovenian born in the state of Yugoslavia." That, without an additional reference, is misleading because that very same statement could apply to, say, a Slovenian who happened to be born in Belgrade -- a totally different circumstance, but you could still say that that person was "a Slovenian born in the state of Yugoslavia." WorldWide Update 15:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I think the present version "Jesenice, Yugoslavia, now Slovenia" is acceptable as it is essentially the same as "Jesenice, Slovenia, then a part of Yugoslavia," which I had before. It's not the form that's the issue here, but the substance.WorldWide Update 15:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, present version is acceptable. We can not omit political historical facts, but, on the other way, things must be put clear. I'm also Slovene, and it is totaly out of my mind to declare myself as born in Yugoslavia. We were always treating ourselves as Slovenes, and all 6 Yugoslav republics had their internal citizenships. But, on the other way, my 1892 born gradpa for instance always claimed himself as born in Austria - Hungary. This Yugoslavia thing obviously wasn't and isn't so popular among my family ;) Regards, Franci213.250.56.98 13:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I clicked on some random category at the bottom of the article and then I clicked on some random hockey player (I don't watch hockey, so they're all just names to me). It says:

born September 27, 1983 in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

So - what exactly is wrong with

born 24 August 1987 in Jesenice, Slovenia, Yugoslavia

again? I think that neither version "Jesenice, Yugoslavia, now Slovenia" nor version "Jesenice, Slovenia" is equivalent to "Jesenice, Slovenia, [then a part of] Yugoslavia". IMHO, the "now" in the first expression would imply that Jesenice was not part of [Socialist Republic of] Slovenia, back then, and the omitting of Yugoslavia in second expression is historically incorrect. --romanm (talk) 21:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think you're right, romanm. While I first welcomed the change to "Jesenice, Yugoslavia, now Slovenia" in the spirit of compromise (it's certainly better than the totally unacceptable "Jesenice, Yugoslavia" without a reference to Slovenia), I am having second thoughts now. There is, as you've pointed out, an implication that Jesenice was not in Slovenia at the time. I now advocate the use of "Jesenice, Slovenia, Yugoslavia" instead (a version that was, coincidentally, deleted without a detailed justification). After all, Slovenia had more autonomy at the time than any Canadian province. WorldWide Update 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kopitar Graffiti

Has anyone noticed that no one has been able to verify whether or not this so-called "Anze" graffiti actually exists anywhere? The photos posted on the web that I've seen claim that they are real, but no one ever gives an exact location of where the photograph was taken.

I suspect that the photographs are phony, unless someone can provide verifiable proof of their legitimacy. After all, if Kopitar had _THAT_ big a following, this so-called graffiti would be more widespread and someone would have verified its authenticity by now.

Of course, I may have missed somethinig. If anyone has verified the authenticity of the graffiti, my apologies. However, to date, I have seen no such verification. And if no verification exists, the photo of the so-called graffiti in this article should be removed. Gmatsuda 08:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

No one has responded to my statement above about the dubious origins of the Kopitar graffiti, giving me more reason to suspect that it's phony. Should the Kopitar graffiti photos and mention of its existence be removed from the article? At this point, I vote yes. The only way it should be part of the article is its existence can be verified. Gmatsuda 08:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I say delete it. If anywhere, it belongs among an article discussing the variants of André the Giant Has a Posse. ccwaters 15:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Will do shortly! Gmatsuda 22:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)