Talk:Amphitere

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[edit] Recent Vandalism

Is there anyone out there that can protect this page? It seems to be attacked in all directions from fans of the "Dragonology" book and merchandise, which against my usual affectations I am already beginning to dislike from the incredible swaths of negative attention it's attracted here. The Dragonology book is fiction, albeit creative fictional reinventions of existing myth-themes.

While we're on works of fiction, perhaps a more astute Wikipedian could add information pertaining to representations of Amphiteres in contemporary fiction...

As for the Jaculus, merging into this article could be debated, as the Jaculus is pretty much just a snake (that exists, too), whereas the Amphitere was reputadly a dragon of dragony-proportions. --75.176.185.207 04:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This article and its subject belong to the realm of (contemporary) fantasy-fiction, and yet it is written as if a description of actual and historical mythologies. If it's not to be deleted altogether, the fictional origins and associations at least need to be made plain.--cjllw | TALK 13:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ouch. Amphiteres are a part of actual mythology, however it seems that somewhere along the point of the growth of this article it has been changed around into a fantasy-fiction article. While certainly posessing a noteworthy place in fantasies, that should be a seperate part of the article as opposed to its body. I'll try my best to rewrite it, but I'm going to need lots of help. --KojiroTakenashi (I'm not logged in, its late, and all Wiki code has drained from my noggin)

Ok, I added an additional line of blank space between the Fantasy-driven part and the mythology part (although some things need to be reclaimed from a previous version, I think). Now all we need is a source or number of sources to add to the nonhistorical part and we're good to go. Actually...we kind of need sources period. --Kojiro

Urg. Looks like my nice little mythology article was completely overtaken thanks to a single fictional book. Could the Mythology and Legendary Creature tags be put back? Part of the whole point for the origin of the article was so that there could be an easily-accessable contemporary reference for an often overlooked element of mythology, not for a fictional reference. The apparently large fictional presence only reflects the need for a historical article even more. --Kojiro

Some reliable sources which treat or recognise this as a genuine element in some actual mythology would definitely be a start. I don't know about other cultural histories, but I've never seen the term amphitere used in the context of Mesoamerican mythologies. As for the fiction/fantasy sources, I'd guess it relies on books such as the Dragonology series, or perhaps also even some RPG from somewhere.--cjllw | TALK 08:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I know it definately predates that new -ology book series (which just embelleshes folklore, mythology, and even history anyway), and RPGs pretty much do the same thing anyway. My first encounter with the term came in a mythological context anyway, in the book Greg Hildebrant's Big Book of Dragons. Great art in that one, go pick it up. I definately wouldn't consider an artbook a source - I'm sure that had to have its sources though. --Kojiro, who is too lazy to log in

That's it, after seeing how prevalent this article has become in mirrors all across the internet (let alone being the first link up in the google search for "Amphitere", I've taken it upon myself to fix this thing. I even managed to find a source after wading through all the Wikipedia mirrors...There's a related article called "Amphiptere" over at the .nl version of Wikipedia here: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiptere

Translation of the article mentioned above:

The amphitere (pronounciation: am-fee-tehr) is a legendary creature, also called Jaculus; it is suspected to be a subspecies of the amphisbaenia. One would be able to find the creature all over the world: from Great Britain, Egypt and the Middle East to Madagascar, Mexico and Perio. It's a timid serpent with small, high wings that are attached to the back, no legs or two legs (rare), a dragon-like head, large eyes and two tongues. One tongue is normal, the other is shaped like an arrow. The withdrawn amphitere flees when people approach or throw some rocks, but is nevertheless poisonous. The creature can roll itself up and then dash off like mad. The Quetzalcoatl is supposed to be a subspecies of the amphitere. The amphitere guards the grandest treasures with its hypnotic eyes, and supposedly knows all the secrets in the world, except for one. It's also said that it guards incense trees in Arabia, from which etheric oil is harvested. The Henham-amphitere from Essex, England was 3 meters tall and as thick as a man's leg. The amphitere appeared in Edward Topsell's "The History of Serpents", written in the beginning of the seventeenth century. The drawing portrayed a snake the size of a python, with bat-like wings on its back. However, the legendary creature is more often portrayed with feathered wings. These serpents also appear in heraldry. But they seldomly occupy a large space on the shield, and are usually accompanied by other animals. Most of them spiral around spears or are balancing on them. The symbolic meaning of the amphitere in heraldry is unknown. The amphitere is supposed to have featured on the coat of arms of the Draconis Extinctors, who went to Ireland to "fight the serpents". This species has possibly been derived from the existing species Fandrefiala, a snake on Madascar. There are many unique animal species to be found on this island, especially snakes. The fandrefiala lets itself fall from a tree tail-first, as if it were a spear. They say that is how it stabs animals walking below it.

This article has the same in-universe plague as a previous version of our English entry, however it also offers some new information I was personally unaware of. Thoughts?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kojiro Takenashi (talk • contribs) 22 September 2006.

Hmm - it seems the nl.wiki article is even worse "dragon-cruft" fiction-as-fact than this previous version. I really don't think any of it (the nl.wiki material) stands up or could be used as a basis for any factual/mythological article. Maybe if written so it is clear this is some description of a particular notable fictional universe, but even then.... Frankly, I'm not convinced "ampithere" has any validity as a cultural/mythological entity (that does not have a basis in contemporary fiction). Leastways, there's nothing to hand to demonstrate otherwise.--cjllw | TALK 09:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does seem that way...however I looked up "Draconis Extinctors" on google. While I only got one hit, I also asked a friend and apparently they do have a sort of folk history going in Ireland...mostly it was the Heraldry remark that got me, as one can find dragons that match the description on shields and crests and the like. The thing about the incense trees is also part of the lore by my understanding, but I'm not willing to add or subtract anything from the existing article until I can dig up some sources. As for there not being anything on hand, are you sure about that? Meso-American deities aside, the only large serpentine dragons found outside of Asian culture are certainly either your "wyvern" or an Amphitere. The word itself is definately one of those fiddly little Middle East to Greek things. Honestly, the only "Amphithere" spellings I've seen are in fiction, and fairly recent fiction at that...The common spelling appears to be "Amphiptere", which has been shortened in modern times to Amphitere. I was incredibly alarmed when I came to check up on the article and found the in-universe tag and the Dragonology copypaste. The fact that there's too much in-universe fiction out there proves the need for a proper mythological article on the subject. Oh a,d while writing this I found some scant backup for the heraldry thing: http://www.familynamesonline.com/charges1.html My understanding is also that an Amphitere is the manner of beast that Cadmus slew, the source of the whole 'dragon's teeth' thing. More heraldry: http://glossaire.blason-armoiries.org/heraldique/a/amphistere.htm The following website also tends to treat the subject with less 'cruft' than what I've been able to dig up thus far: http://www.blackdrago.com/heraldic.htm For the source of the creature, my understanding is that it came from Arabic Mythology and somehow traveled upwards (thus the incense trees remark in the translation above - I'm lucky I know a Netherlander)

The point I'm trying to make is that it is out there, and the word is used outside of fiction. The problem is nailing it down without having to stop by a library. I don't suppose you could help me by also setting aside some library time to try to fix this mess? If only the darn thing had continued to be so ignored at LEAST until 2010. Ugh, internet. --Kojiro Takenashi 04:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

The two separate entries Jaculus and Amphitere are alternative names for the same topic. They should be merged, although etymologically-speaking the more correct spelling would be to have the article at amphiptere (currently redirects to jaculus), which would preserve the word's greek origins of αμφις (amphis, "both" (but as in 'amphibian') and πτερυζ (ptero; "wing").

Also, and as the discussion preceding above, both of these articles in any case need more attention paid to not treat these as some pan-global mythological classification. I believe that both of these terms are mostly and originally associated with Medieval (European) heraldry. As legendary creatures this is just about as far as these terms go, and I suspect the only folkloric mentions are European and Middle Eastern. The fact that there are in other mythologies in the world legendary "winged serpent" creatures of one form or another (such as in mesoamerica & ancient egypt) does not mean these too are referred to or are examples of amphipteres/jaculi.--cjllw | TALK 04:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I could debate the lack of connection to Egypt, considering they had loads of cultural contact with Rome--75.176.185.207 04:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Possibly, though the (admittedly limited) research I've done does not indicate that amphiptere (as a 'classifacatory' concept) goes much further back beyond medieval heraldry, into say ancient Roman / Egyptian times. Sure, winged serpent-like creatures appear in earlier real-world mythologies, and while these presumably provide the inspiration behind the heraldic (and now reprised in the modern-day young-adult fictional/educational books like the Dragonology series) treatment of classifying "dragons", it doesn't appear the term has currency outside of these.

You may be right (above) about jaculi being differentiable from amphipteres, tho' a couple of the heraldic sources I'd checked treated these interchangeably. At some point I may attempt a more appropriate rewrite here, but it is not high on my to-do list at the moment.--cjllw | TALK 04:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Disregarding the Dragonology book, I have seen Amphipteres discussed in both art books and mythology books. I can locate other sources, but right now I can remember that the Amphiptere does exist in Edward Topsell's A HIstory of Serpents or some such title, which was originally published in the late 1400s/early 1500s. I have also seen Amphipteres in another reliable, more modern, printed source: Dragons: A Natural History by Dr. Karl Shuker (1995). Shuker is a reliable source as he treats the subject with objectivity, as a mythological creature only and not a realistic or fantasy fiction creature; he also has dozens of print sources in the bibliography. Anyway, to my knowledge, the Amphiptere and the Jaculus are separate entities. The Amphiptere is a winged snake with alleged medicinal properties, while the Jaculus is a snake (without a dragon head or any wings, unlike the Amphiptere) which craves wine and drops from trees on anyone carrying caskets of wine--thus it's other name, the Javelin Snake. I believe Carol Rose's Encylopedia of Giants, Dragons, and Monsters discusses the two creatures as well.67.167.26.239 05:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

OK Chris G., fair enough, and if you have the references handy then by all means feel free to add them in and expand the entry here. Just so long as the fictional is well-distinguished from any genuine real-word mythological mentions. Re jaculus, I'm satisfied it can be maintained separately, so am removing the {merge} tag.--cjllw | TALK 23:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)