Talk:American and British English spelling differences

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American and British English spelling differences was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: No date specified. Please edit template call function as follows: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}

Contents 1 barmy and balmy 2 Scalywag 3 Canada 4 Sport vs Sports 5 Nice article 6 Two more possible examples 7 Incorrect information about "theater" and "center" 8 -xion 9 program/programme 10 Gaol in NZ

[edit] barmy and balmy

I've removed "barmy-balmy" from the "Spelling and pronunciation" table. dictionary.com has

• for balmy, in the AHD definition:

1. . Having the quality or fragrance of balm; soothing.
2. . Mild and pleasant: a balmy breeze.
3. . Chiefly British Slang Eccentric in behavior.

[Sense 3, alteration of barmy, frothy.]

• for barmy, in the Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) definition:

1. .containing or resembling barm; frothy.
2. .British Slang. balmy (def. 4). [sc. "Informal. crazy; foolish; eccentric."]

[Origin: 1525–35; barm + -y1; def. 2 prob. resp. of balmy by r-less speaker]

That's pretty inconclusive. jnestorius^(talk) 01:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• On the other hand, looking at my printed dictionaries (remember them?), Webster (AmEng) has "balmy" and says that "barmy" is a BrEng variant, while the Collins Dictionary (BrEng) does exactly the opposite. JackLumber has reinstated in (in the right place this time - thanks!), and I think it is now correct. Both spellings are used (with that meaning) in both Am and Br, but the primary Br spelling is clearly barmy and the primary Am spelling is clearly balmy. Snalwibma 09:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, as to the spellings, I concur, though I think JackLumber and AHD have inverted the direction of origin. Since that is not currently stated in the table, it might be academic/moot. However, I'm not sure balmy/barmy belongs in the "spelling and pronunciation" table as that is currently introduced: "essentially the same word has a different spelling which reflects a different pronunciation". It would appear that the table is for same origin and meaning, with different spelling and pronunciation; barmy/balmy is an example of different origin and same pronunciation. Well, you can argue about pronunciation; I presume the minority of Americans who say "barmy" pronounce the R, as the Irish do. Spelling "balmy" is considered incorrect by some British usage guides; justifiably so, if the barmy→balmy origin is correct. jnestorius^(talk) 15:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

On a related point, I'm not sure "m(o)ustache" belongs there either, since the difference in spelling and pronunciation are not always connected; "yog(h)urt" and "p(y|a)jamas" have been removed on similar grounds. jnestorius^(talk) 15:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Technically, ba[l|r]my is a Briticism, whatever the spelling—in American English, this adjective is relatively uncommon, but it's always spelled balmy anyways. Balmy "crazy" appeared first in 1852 and was respelled as barmy only 40 years later, yet the two forms can be thought of as alterations of each other—go figure it out! The /'məsˌtæʃ/ pronunciation is however strongly connected with the o-less spelling, although the 2nd syllable stress pronunciation is also current in AmE. But the different pronunciations of yog(h)(o)urt and p[y|j]amas have nothing to do with their spellings, witness the way Canadians pronounce pyjamas and the way Australians pronounce yoghurt. And yes, the table title should be changed. JackLumber. 19:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The earliest cites for barmy and balmy may be 1852 and 1892; of course those are not necessarily the years they were coined, which could be much earlier for slangy words and senses. jnestorius^(talk) 21:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

re "m(o)ustache": my point is that correlation is not the same as causation. I envisage this table as restricted to words where a difference in pronunciation is reflected in the spelling, rather than words which happen to differ in both spelling and pronunciation; the latter should simply be listed twice, in both the spelling page and the pronunciation page, as with reconnoiter/reconnoitre and anesthetize/anaesthetise. jnestorius^(talk) 15:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scalywag

this word appears to have different meanings rather than spellings maybe it should be put in a different article ie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_British_and_American_English —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.146.52.12 (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Canada

On what grounds are the claims made regarding Canadian usage? I see no specific Canadian references. I hear and read "titbit," "behove," "scallywag," "yoghurt," and "moustache" as frequently as the American variants. "Plow" is a rarity. Of course, anybody can edit Wikipedia, as I need to remind myself. Fishhead64 02:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

(1) behove/behoove was actually wrong, thank you. (2) WP:AGF. (3) Take it out on (Peters, 2004). JackLumber. 23:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I always try to AGF, but I never assume expertise. Fishhead64 04:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sport vs Sports

I believe sport/sports should be listed here. In America, we say things like, "I'm not that into sports" whereas in the UK, they would say, "I'm not that into sport." If you search Google for "sport", the first result is "BBC Sport" .. if you search for "sports", you get "ESPN: The Worldwide Leader in Sports." Yahoo's entry for the UK is listed as "Yahoo UK Sport" whereas their American version is "Yahoo Sports"

Maths/math is listed as a difference, and believe that this is exactly the same kind of usage difference. If sport/sports is removed, i believe maths/math should go too. If not, what's the difference?

--Mike Schiraldi 20:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

But what you say is spurious. Sports and sport are used interchangeably in both dialects. Stop reverting. Examples? JJB Sports, Streetwise Sports, Sky Sports all BrE - but BBC Sport, ITV Sport, Sport England. Interchangeable see? -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 21:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

Yup, dead right, Boothman. Both used both places. Snalwibma 21:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is a difference. But it's not about spelling. It's singular + mass noun vs. plural + count noun. See e.g. OALD and type sport. JackLumber. 00:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

So why not get rid of maths/math for the same reason? The American_and_British_English_differences puts maths/math and sport/sports in the same class: "Singular attributives in one country may be plural in the other, and vice versa. For example, the UK has a drugs problem while the United States has a drug problem (although the singular usage is also commonly heard in the UK); Americans read the "sports" section of a newspaper, while the British read the "sport" section. Similarly, students in America learn math; in the UK, maths."

--Mike Schiraldi 06:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Because in the case of math/maths there really is a difference. In the USA it's called math and in Britain it's called maths. In BrE the word "math" is never heard. Snalwibma 08:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

UK maths is singular, just as US math is; both are abbreviations of mathematics. American_and_British_English_differences was wrong; I've changed it. jnestorius^(talk) 13:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The decision process is as follows:

1. If BrE maths is strictly a mass noun, always singular in construction, then 1) math/maths can (loosely) be regarded as a difference in spelling 2) the sentence "Similarly, students…maths" was correctly rewritten.
2. If BrE maths can be used with a plural verb, then 1) math/maths is not a difference in spelling 2) the germane entry must be removed 3) The sentence in American and British English differences must be rewritten. JackLumber. 14:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC) 14:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jack, your no. 1 (or should I say #1?) is correct. In BrE, maths is definitely singular (a mass noun). Maths is a subject of study. Never (never, never, never) "maths are..."! Snalwibma 14:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with Snal, number one is the only plausible decision. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 18:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Nice article

I learnt a lot from reading this. Thanks. Carcharoth 13:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Two more possible examples

This is a great article, I think - comprehensive and clear (unlike the article on pronunciation differences which is so full of linguistic jargon as to be complete gibberish). Two more possible miscellaneous examples that I can think of but don't have dictionaries to hand to verify are:

swath/swathe - where 'swath' is American and 'swathe' is British. The pronunciations are different too - 'swoth' in American and 'swaythe' in British.

spit/spat - possibly a more fundamental difference than one of spelling - may be considered more of a grammatical variation. In British English, the past participle of 'to spit' is 'spat', e.g. 'he spat at me' or 'I was spat at'. In US English, I have only ever heard or seen 'spit' used in this context. 87.86.239.10 14:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

1. swath/swathe: exactly. Way back, swath was a noun and swathe a verb, just like bath and bathe---hey, bath *can* be a verb in British English! a whole new can of worms...
2. spit/spat: grammar rather than spelling, I just added it to the main article.

Thanks for your input! JackLumber. 23:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect information about "theater" and "center"

The links to support -re lead to a single example on a map (for theatre) and (for center/centre) a less than authoritative British site speculating in a vague, off-hand footnote on some notion of reversion in America which can be supported by no American source I know of.

Theater is used by America's national theater and all major American newspapers such as the New York Times (theater section) to refer to both the dramatic arts as well as to buidlings where performances take place. This is more reliable than attempting to use a single private auditorium as a guiding example.

I suggest ammeding the article accordingly. Any comments before I proceed to do so? W.C. 18:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] -xion

Does -xion vs -ction merit its own subsection? There appear to be no extant differences, apart from complected, which in any case rather falls outside the terms of reference of the title. jnestorius^(talk) 23:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Good point. I vote to delete the entire section. Snalwibma 23:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't! Weirdly enough, the section fails to mention what it's all about—the -ction/-xion thing applies to British English only, since -ction stands alone in American English. Therein lies the difference. JackLumber. 14:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Slightly reworded, attempting to address these concerns. --Old Moonraker 15:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, tomorrow I'll put in a footnote. JackLumber. 15:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] program/programme

didn't want to add this because i'm not sure if program is an american spelling or just an alternative british spelling for programme —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.72.81.84 (talk) 00:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

'Programme' is correct UK spelling in every sense except that referring to a computer program in which the (American) spelling 'program' is used almost without exception.

However, OED online accepts 'program' as its preferred spelling in all senses. That said, the majority of the OED's UK examples seem to be 'programme' and the OED itself refers to programmes rather than programs in its subheadings. I'll have to look at a hard copy of the OED and get back to you, if I remember. 129.12.200.49 19:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaol in NZ

"gaol is still an official spelling in New Zealand" This is possibly the case but jail is certainly more common. Does anyone have evidence that gaol is the official spelling in NZ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.78.149.115 (talk) 03:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

The article doesn't attempt to cover New Zealand spelling (which is essentially the same as British spelling); that note was just an unnoticed, uncalled-for addition by an anon. Besides, the article clearly says that "jail prevails everywhere. JackLumber. 19:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)