Talk:American Orthodox Catholic Church
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[edit] Candidate for speedy deletion
Hi, I just happened to chance on this article. At first, second, third and fourth reading of the article, I cannot help but be inclined to conclude that this article was made for self-promotion and advertisement. I was inclined to tag this article { { db-spam } } for speedy deletion. I still believe that this article does not deserve to be an encyclopedic entry. I will come back again to this article and do further searching, but it appears that this should not be treated as a bona fide article. I call for this article's speedy deletion. No prejudice to the group is intended as I am a firm and true believer of the freedom of religion and of speech. The article just doesn't "fit". Dr mindbender 04:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Possible copyvio???
Looking over this document it smacks of copyvio. But the only thing I could find was that it is a copy and paste from [The Independent Movement] wiki. I think that gives the article some freedom. Somebody with more knowledge than me should verify this. James084 13:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] npov
Reading this article, I have absolutely no idea what the AOCC actually is, just what their religious agenda is like. This article needs someone from outside the church itself to write a good, concise summary of its history and program, and to make it relevant and intelligible. --Cantara 19:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] American Orthodox Catholic Church
Much of the information given in the article is valid up to a point; it's the conclusion that is misleading. There are several denominations which claim authority from the Propheta line as the AOCC (especially in the 1960s) was notorious as a "bishops mill": Propheta consecrated bishops with reckless abandon, and this writer was present at several in a relatively short period of time.
The article mentions some of the co-consecrators of Propheta in 1964, but does not mention Theodotus de Witow, a member of the occult society, the Societas Rosicruciana in America (SRIA), which had a small chapel and office on Manhattan's Upper West Side. DeWitow's superior and consecrator, one George Winslow Plummer, was an associate of the famed English occultist and magician Aleister Crowley at one time and edited a Rosicrucian journal entitled Mercury in the 1920s. All in all, a chequered line of apostolic succession.
The article is absolutely correct, however, on Propheta's connections with the FBI, with Thomas Dewey, and oddly enough with Cardinal Spellman. Propheta's anti-communist campaigns lasted throughout the 1950s and 1960s, and he appeared on television raising consciousness concerning the Katyn Forest Massacre. It was as an anti-communist with ties to Eastern Europe that Propheta came to the attention of American and foreign intelligence services, a legacy that has continued with some of the bishops who claim succession through him (though not, I don't believe, with Gabre Medhin Jeremiah).
The article speaks of the influence of Propheta that was "extended to many parts of the world": this was due, at least in part, to the AOCC being used as a front for intelligence activity. The name of the church comes up several times in the National Archives files on the JFKennedy assassination, as Carl Stanley -- a bishop with the AOCC -- had consecrated David Ferrie and Jack Martin (two putative members of a Kennedy assassination conspiracy and depicted in Oliver Stone's film JFK by Joe Pesci and Jack Lemmon, respectively). Ferrie and Martin were investigators for Guy Banister in New Orleans, the Camp Street office that supposedly "ran" Lee Harvey Oswald when the latter was fronting for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Other investigators for Banister later became consecrated as bishops in the AOCC, including Thomas Jude Baumler; so much so that this writer refers to Banister's office as the "Camp Street Cathedral". The story of the AOCC is fascinating, if a little bizarre and difficult to understand if one is not aware of the "wandering bishop" phenomenon. I recommend Peter Anson's book, Bishops At Large (which has just been reprinted) for background on the phenomenon, and humbly my own work, Sinister Forces - Volume One, for more background on the AOCC and its links to the JFK assassination and other intelligence activities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Levenda (talk • contribs) .
The article confuses several things about Orthodox Church history - especially in its apparent attempt to call upon Russian Orthodox Church history as a pedigree of descent for the AOCC. What it ought to come clean about is that no Orthodox church of any description (including the Greeks, the Orthodox Church of America, or the Russian patriarchal Church of Moscow, acknowledges it or has any communion with it whatsoever. The same is true in regard to the Catholic Church. It is not an Orthodox church in the common understanding of that term, and the irrelevant data concerning Moscow's grant of Autocephaly to the OCA which it speasks about as part of its origin( the OCA being a legitimate Orthodox Church) serves only to confuse that issue for the innocent reader. Belisarios 22:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC) Belisarios.
It must somehow be thought that the AOCC actually will bend under the thoughts and opinions of the Mainline. Frankly, we do not care what they think. The Mainline needs to clean up their own house before they can start criticizing others. We do not exist to fight with them, nor are we going to. We have better things to do. We were founded by Archbishop Propheta for a reason, and we will continue our mission and ministry despite their condemning us.
The Most Rev. Mark Pultorak Metropolitan Primate The American Orthodox Catholic Church - Propheta Jurisdiction
[edit] Edited somewhat
Did a quick-and-dirty edit to make it a bit less like an advert and introduce the simple fact that 99% of Orthodox Christians would regard the AOCC as quackery. Shinkage
[edit] Orthodox Church-American Jurisdiction
I was "baptized" into the Holy Orthodox Church American Jurisdiction. I quickly left because I doubted its authenticity. It was more like an Orthodox Church "wanna-be". Its "bishops" seemed like mediocrities, and the church is basically a sham. It could become a valid church if it would submit itself to some Orthodox body with legitimate ties to Apostolic Christianity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.3.7.2 (talk) 04:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
Obviously the ocean of unscrupulous people from and since Propheta has caused today’s automatic, knee-jerk judgment without due process against anyone who especially mentions an AOCC in their background. This being so, it is completely impossible for the person, whose individual intent, heart, and integrity may be legitimate, to receive any form of response – even if only out of courtesy - let alone an opportunity for a dialogue, to be able to present their submission to what’s called “the legitimate” Orthodox Churches today.
SO, just as unacceptable and disgusting as so-called frauds and players claiming to be AOCC might be, so should be using the same brush against the few who actually are honest in their Orthodox faith and have an active legitimate vocation. Constantine 18:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Identity Theft
Propheta died in October 1972. Worley was consecrated on November 28, 1972 by Francis Joseph Ryan of Ryan's so-called “Ecumenical Orthodox Catholic Church-Autocephalous.” Ryan had already schismed from the “Propheta Synod” several years earlier. Worley left Ryan to become part of the "Ethiopian Orthodox Coptic Church;” however, he resigned in September 1974 to rejoin Ryan - AFTER Propheta's American Orthodox Catholic Church had completely fell apart. Around 2003, David William Worley surfaced again with new protégé Mark Pultorak claiming Worley was in charge of the “Propheta Synod,” and had always been following Propheta's death in 1972. At first, they also claimed that Worley had been consecrated by Propheta. Both fabrications. There is simply no unbroken organic connection. (References: Institute of American Religion, University of California-Santa Barbara; personal contact)
Constantine 18:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, there are too many glaring errors despite readily available historical records proving the author/submitter of this article and his church are NOT the long since defunct "Propheta Synod." In addition to those already noted by others above: 1.) Tikhon was not Patriarch of Russia in early 1917 when Ofiesh was selected and elevated to bishop. Tikhon wasn't even a candidate until days before his election in November 1917. 2.) Ofiesh was not elected by the Russian Holy Synod. He was elected and requested for approval to the Holy Synod by the diocese he served: the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America. 3.) Ofiesh was not a cleric of the Patriarchate of Antioch from the time he arrived in America in 1905. He was received by and served strictly the Russian Orthodox Church, as did Hawaweeny. 4.) Hawaweeny was not an Exarch. He was the Russian Orthodox bishop assigned to head the Russian Orthodox mission to Syrians in America. 5.) Patriarch Tikhon did not issue any mandate to anyone to found an autonomous American Church. When he served as Archbishop of North America (1895-1907) he proposed autonomy to the Russian Holy Synod PERIOD. Ofiesh himself took up and pushed for the Tikhon plan in 1925/26, after Tikhon's death. 6.) In 1927, Platon supported the Tikhon plan under Ofiesh; he did not, alone, give nor had any authority to give, alone, Ofiesh any authority of "care and responsibility." The North American Synod of Bishops approved the pursuit. 7.) Propheta was not ordained by Bohdan of the Ukrainian Orthodox mission. Bohdan was not a bishop until 1937. Bishop Joseph Zuk was the only bishop of the mission in 1933. (References: the commonly accepted, multiple secular and ecclesiastical histories of the Russian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, etc.) Constantine 15 March 2007 (UTC)
