Talk:American History X
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[edit] Opinion of movie
the first time I saw this movie, I stayed on my bed in university for 2 hours and just stared at my computer screen. Saying to myself I will never watch this again. That was 3 years ago, I noe own the movie b/c I was spending too much money renting it. I felt the movie pulled me in....sort of making me feel obligated to make other people see it. Eddie Norton bacaome one of my fave actors the day I saw this. It would take a lot of guts to play the role he played. I have never been in any place that any of these valuse/beliefs have been alive more so then the time I spent in Germany in Berlin. It was a long time after any action made there but the feeling were still there with the older genernation. I made me think back to that time and long to be able to help those people again. Over all this movie moved me in such a way that I HAVE to watch it at least once a week if not more. I read one of these messeges and it was asking why he would be smiling when leaving the prison I believe is how it was worded.....I think I would be smiling too knowing that I am not the same person I was when I went in there, knowing the torment he faced was over and knowing that he was able to go home with his family. VERY VERY VERY VERY great movie....
[edit] Synopsis
The synopsis seems to be confusing, longer than necessary and in a number of places incorrect. I'm going to try and tidy it up and clarify it a little, bit by bit. I'll probly make mistakes, I'm not a particularly prolific editor and the way the film jumps around doesn't make a simple plot easy. --Jasonisme 22:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
How about we remove basically all the detailed quotes? That's what wikiquote is for, i.e. we don't need to get into the details about Dennis Vineyard's "affirmative blaction" speech when I copied it over there.
Pretty good condensation, although it's conversely a little too lean (doesn't even mention that Danny had to write a paper on the events, that Dr. Sweeney intervened to help Derek's parole, or that the night Derek murdered the carjackers was the same day Doris kicked him out of the house for fighting with Murray a few hours before, all pretty significant events.) I'd almost lean towards including a characters section too...
[edit] Top
A truly moving movie. I still can't get the image out of my head after Edward Norton has shot the first thief. The second one is made to bite the curb and then Norton stomps on his head, splitting his skull into two pieces (the actual splitting isn't shown). I was cringing for a while after that. It is very graphic; but if it wasn't, it would really lose a lot. This is definitely on my top 10 movies list.
[edit] The best American movie ever made, :?
I have never, honesty God, seen any film as dissentful and unconventional as this. Now, it's sad, but the situation here in the states is very lop-sided when it comes to racial and ethic aspects, most of the racism's been eliminated and outlawed, but we still bring this question up more than ever. And Democrats and liberals try to shut down any dilog about this, and come up with f*ed up solutions to racial problems, that often are racial to majority of white americans and outright stupid. And film very frankly discusses that. Also, the fact that we have de-facto segregation again in this country, and the discmal fact is... many people understand that it's necessary, unless you're some liberal who grew up in all-white upper-class neighborhood and never actually been in the lower-class neighborhoods and inner city. But those of us like me, who grew up in poor, lower class and lower-middle class nieghborhoods, we've all seen the nice neighborhoods being overrun by blacks and turned into "hoods". That's what Danny was talking about when he talked about Venice Beach (btw, is that a real city, or fictional?), sad reality of contemporary America... The same thing happens her in Detroit in places like Eastpointe, Oak Park, Ferndale, and other cities by the 8 mile... So in my opinion, Am. His. X is the movie with the balls and guts, :D
Statements like these are why whites are seen by the world as the most ignorant people. Panda
Statements like these are why whites are seen by the world as the most ignorant people.
Don't you think your statement is somewhat ironic, unless you yourself are prejudiced? "Whites are seen" What whites? Do you how many differant cultures/nations make up "whites"? Ever left North America?
What I stated was a true statement moreover an on-point statement. As I stated before, whites are the most ignorant and mentally unstable of all other races in this world. Panda
If you cannot see the hypocrisy in your own statement I'm laughing my ass off at you, while I pity you. EvilMuppet 03:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)EvilMuppet03:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Venice Beach is real. And, not surprising, so is the situation that is arising. Not sure why I found this on "Web India", but this is relevant to the situation in Venice: http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=121837&n_date=20050927&cat=World
In California, Spanish is more important than English" I haven't found any inconvenience because I don't speak English.
- SoCal is a haven for nazis, which is why I hate the place. And to the person who started this thread, come on, maybe the problem is that blacks and other minorities have a historical (and present day) impediment to progress caused by white supremacist attitudes and policies (and many of these attitudes and policies are not even recognized by their supporters as racist, which shows how much they are examining themselves). Anyway, poor white neighborhoods have the same problems, the emphasis should be on the "poor", not the "black". And btw, I grew up in a poor neighborhood and live in one today so I'm not some upper-class white liberal with no experience with these issues (for example, just 2 nights ago I heard 7 or 8 gunshots a block or two from my house). And did you even see the end of the movie? Both guys realizes all of their ideas were crap. Attitudes like this is why minorities are still so low in our society, even decades after they were given the same legal rights (supposedly). The Ungovernable Force 07:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
There are many minority areas with many criminals. There are many criminals there because they are many uneducated and broke residents. They are many uneducated residents because they can’t afford good schooling. They can’t afford good schooling because they are unemployed. They are unemployed, because business won’t gamble with their financial security and their personal safety by moving into a place with a lot of criminals. There are many criminals there because…
This never-ending cycle is the true reason for why so many minorities are still so low in our society; not because of blind prejudice toward genetics and skin tone. You may say that the police could break this cycle, by cracking down on these criminals, but they don’t because they’re racist. This is incorrect. They don’t do this because the resident don’t pay high enough taxes. Overall, this conflict is a social class issue that has been mislabeled as a racial issue. '
[edit] My question with this movie and its message
I think this film is well done, but severely flawed in some respects. In its effort to analyze the movement, Derrick's political rhetoric hits the mark pretty well. Afterwards, it seems to fall off. The whole reason Derrick begins to question his dedication to the movement is because he sees the hypocrisy of his swastika-adorned friend (followed by an epidemic of butt-raping) and the kindness of his black, towell-folding buddy. With the latter, he makes a discovery: blacks aren't all bad people after all. But the film has Derrick walking out of jail smiling like he just promoted to head of Microsoft. The film never goes back to the reasons Derrick got into the "scene" and he saw everything was wrong with the country. What, did he just decide to turn a blind eye to everything? The whole Rodney King thing raises some serious questions...not because of his race, but the whole situation involving drugs and irresponsibility on HIS behalf even before the cops acted (supposedly) irresponsibly themselves.
Granted, these problems aren't due to race. But as he walked out, convinced that minorities weren't necessarily the problem, he completely forgot about the problem itself. The problem that he ATTACHED to minorities in his mind. Destruction of work-ethic, morals, honor and responsibility in favor of capital, self-interest and so on. Society is crumbling and its turning out the only thing that holds the whole system together is money and self-interests. I've lived in the ghetto for a while, and its easy to see how it fascilates itself...and now the media is promoting it, something I really don't understand.
Likewise, Derrick drops out of the scene because he sees through the hypocrisy and misconstruing of his ideals - apparently they didn't stand for the same things Derrick had thought they did. And in a sense, this is true in reality as well. The irony in real life is that if the far right ever came to power again, most neonazis would be the first to go, because most are just driven by bloodlust and ignorance - the way they promote their "superior" culture is just as degenerative, and they never could function in society. They attach themselves to ideology and use it to promote their unquenchable violent and hateful interests.
So my final question is where did Derrick stand in this scope of things? Instead of remaining politically active, he walks away from everything at the end completely abandoning his racist perceptions but seemingly walking away from his interests in promoting a healthy society.
He did the right thing. He was done devoting himself to a cause. He just wanted to live his life, without letting some signal ideal consume it. Sure society could make good use of such a skilled leader, but I imagine his mom is a lot happier with him not organinzing a movement against such a violent group of skinheads. 10-03-06
[edit] Cleanup
Does this still need cleanup? Rd232 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Unless you can think of something that is missing, no.
- How did Edward Norton re-edit the film against Tony Kaye's permission? He was just an actor! Did he pull important strings with the producers or something? --I am not good at running 06:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
From what I understand, it was more of an issue between Tony Kaye's artistic vision and what the producers wanted the film to be. --68.45.21.204 04:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Wrong part in synopsis?
"Danny continually complains that his new founded neo-Nazi ways have nothing to do with his big brother Danny, but Dr. Sweeney rebukes him and sends him on his way"
Should Danny be replaced with Derek in one of those places? I haven't seen the movie; I was reading the article to see if it was worth watching, but this part seemed contradictory- how is Danny's older brother named Danny? -VetteDude 19:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hah good one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.59.251 (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Minor Correction
The tattooed swastika was on Derek's left pectoral, not right. Correcting... Screen capture: http://picnic.ciao.com/fr/162808.jpg
66.93.100.117 22:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC) -PR
[edit] Alternative Ending
"An original scripted, but unfilmed, ending consisted of Derek shaving his head and reverting back to his neo-Nazi skinhead ways after the death of his brother."
Is it possible that this triva bit isn´t entirly true? I could swear that I´ve seen the movie with this ending. FreddyE 13:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've just removed reference to this in the "Deleted scenes" section for the following reasons. Firstly no such scene was ever filmed, so it couldn't be considered deleted in the first place. Secondly no such scene is in the linked shooting script. Thirdly in the final scene Danny clearly says "what have I done", meaning that his first instinct isn't that the path away from racism should now be reversed, but that he sees the responsibility for what happening to his brother as being a consequence of the path that Danny followed Derek down. Fourthly it doesn't seem that anyone involved in the making of the film has ever made reference to any such scene. Lastly it's just un-encyclopaedic to make reference to unsubstantiated rumours. I may have heard a rumour from some guy I knew once that that in deleted scene from the Empire Strikes Back Darth Vader was to reveal himself as Luke's mother, replete with hair curlers underneath her helmet, but I shouldn't try and include that nugget in an encyclopaedia. JMWhite 02:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Trivia
"Edward Norton's penis is exposed twice in the film: First at the start of the film, when he is having sex with his girlfriend (Balk) and again when he is in the prison showers, as Derek Vineyard is raped."
Is this really an item worthy of being on the Trivia list? I mean, what the hell is the point of it being here? Not only is it something that the viewer can notice easily themself, it really serves no significance whatsover. We don't see trivia about a woman's breasts being displayed however many times for other films, so this is really out of place. Conquerer 03:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, I'm removing it. Kevin Hughes 21:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone's added to the trivia the rumour of the deleted scene/alternative ending I mentioned above. I'm removing it unless someone can cite a reputable reference showing this to be based in fact. As far as i can tell it's something bandied about by racist extremists without any evidence. An internet search yealds only mentions of this possibility on racist message boards - many of whom then reference wikipedia as proof. It has no place here JMWhite 16:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Timeline of the Film
I replaced the line that says that this film tells the story of Derek Vinyard some time after the LA Race Riots, because it's not entirely true. The scene in which the riots are mentioned seems to suggest that they had happened a relatively short time before that discussion; the fact that Derek's mom was dating (and combined with Danny's narrative) suggests that it was a good deal of time after the death of Derek's father (indicated by the radical change in appearance before and after his father's death, and the fact that he didn't begin his neo-naziism untl after his father's death). So, some of the scenes in the movie take place before the race riots. -Mance 10:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Cadillac-----------
Are you guys sure the green cadillac is the car the car jackers drove. It looked to me like the carjackers had a ford falcon or something, also those cadillacs have square headlights, while the jackers cars headlights are clearly round.
[edit] Fishy article
I'm unsure about some of the comments in the synopsis. I think some of them are unecessary. 'poor black kid from the ghetto', 'both white cops...smiles', etc. Needs to be reworked, or maybe I'm just reading a shitty revert. Panda
[edit] Lawsuit
So what happened with the lawsuit? Nil Einne 18:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Plot
I tagged the plot because it is overly long. It weighs in at 1,766 words, whereas the guidelines suggest no more than 900 words.--Supernumerary 22:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
there would never be a lawsuit nor could there be a lawsuit it's called freedom you have the right to put out whatever you feel needs to be put out i don't think this film is trying to be slanderous to anyone and you idiots should just drop the subject of how you hate it and how much you disagree with the message as you call it this is reality people are like this get over it least you could do is stop complaining
[edit] Deleted Scenes
I don't think the description of the third deleted scene is very accurate. The mother hardly whisks her kid away as soon as Derek begins to speak. Admittedly she seems a little nervous of him but I disagree with the wording - anyone else think it needs altering? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.205.139.234 (talk) 16:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Curb scene
When, in the movie, did Norton ever tell the guy to bite the curb? Please, somebody, let me know the exact time and scene. You can't, because he never said it. I'm changing the phrasing.
[edit] Shooting Scene
Hey has anybody found any explanations on the final scene where Danny gets shot? I just think this is a significant scene from the movie so I was just wondering the purpose of it, and I think it would contribute very much to the article. Near the end of the movie you see Danny starting to change his ways and understand the hypocrisy and cons of the neo-nazi doctrine. And then he gets murdered by a black schoolmate simply because he blew smoke in his face. So what is this scene suppose to tell audiences? From what it seems to me it confirms the very prejudices that Danny had in the first place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.94.55.91 (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
sigh* before anybody tries to go off on me calling me a racist/neo-nazi, keep in mind I'm stating this explantion not from my personal beliefs but from the context of the movie. I'm just adding this message here cause I know how some people can get somebody says something that isn't 100% anti-racist or politically correct.
i dont think you will be deemed as a racist for your question. i believe the scene was pivotal for two reasons: 1) it left us wondering if derek's reformation was in vain (would he revert), and 2) it showed that, like gang mentality, once you are out does not equate to a sense of safety. in the original treatment, derek re-shaves his head after this scene. The undertow 08:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
this movie is a one of a kind. there is no other movie based on racism that can compare to the intensity of American history X. I own the movie and I always watch it. this movie really makes a statement.
[edit] Title of film
I have not seen this movie in years. Can someone please remind me what the "X" in the title refers to? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 21:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC))
