Talk:Amazons

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[edit] Herodotus

Aziri, who's been lying to you? Herodotus says the Amazons lived in southern Russia, around the Thermodon River.[1] If you claim he said they were North African, show me the quote. - Mustafaa 17:42, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

yes , see this : http://www.nissaba.nl/godinnen/beschra.htm , the writer speak also english , ask him for meer information. you can also see this :http://www.myrine.at/Amazons/index.html.Aziri 11:39, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My understanding is that Amazons were located by various Greek mythographers in both North Africa and the farther shores of the Black Sea in Greek mythology. The idea was that the Amazons were always just beyond the farthest reaches of Greek navigation at the time the story circulated, just like the Cynocephali and Blemmyes. Smerdis of Tlön 14:48, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

the amazones were in all case also a berber fighters. herodotus identificed them as berber .(you have the link in my first answer). the beeldes of amazones are also found in north africa. the name amazons in interpretated too as a berber word that probably cames from the word amazigh (it mean berber)....Aziri 13:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It may be helpful to review what Herodotus actually says, rather than relying on secondary interpretations. It would also be helpful to remember that Herodotus is an inveterate liar and nothing he says should ever be accepted uncritically. —No-One Jones 14:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

you are right. herodotus was a big liar . becaue the God is the only one who don't lie , (because he cannot lie) but we can say that anybody is lying when his lie is not wished. examples : the Moor : they where black peopel. (that is a lie, because they where never black. ) +and they are mixed of arab-berber (that is alei because the Moor where in north africa before the coming of the arab). but we don't have to say that he is a liar, but i'm as berber i will say that becaus it belong to me. another will say that not. (that is the deffrence between the lies). if you want more in formation about the libyan amazones , see :[2] or this (more information about their origin):[3].Aziri 14:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Aziri, I can't help noticing that you still haven't shown me the quote - someone else claiming that "Herodotus identificeerde hen met de Lybiërs, die vroeger bijna geheel Noord-Afrika bewoonden, met uitzondering van Egypte" is not the same thing as quoting Herodotus. Myrine.at is obviously, at best, highly speculative (to be polite about it), and is certainly not academic enough to go here. - Mustafaa 09:31, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Vlasta's "Women's war" is just a legend; it is not historically attested. Analysis of the legend can be found here. (Sorry, the article is in Czech.) -- Mike Rosoft 22:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


[edit] I added to the below to the article and it was deleted

Whole sources belong in the wiki source effort. Short quotes DO belong in wikipedia. Where the line is drawn is a matter of taste. In any case I hate revert wars, so I put it here. 4.250.168.38 14:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Herodotus

About twenty-five hundred years ago, Herodotus in Histories in book four records:

110. About the Sauromatai the following tale is told:--When the Hellenes had fought with the Amazons,--now the Amazons are called by the Scythians /Oiorpata/, which name means in the Hellenic tongue "slayers of men," for "man" they call /oior/, and /pata/ means "to slay,"--then, as the story goes, the Hellenes, having conquered them in the battle at the Thermodon, were sailing away and conveying with them in three ships as many Amazons as they were able to take prisoners. These in the open sea set upon the men and cast them out of the ships; but they knew nothing about ships, nor how to use rudders or sails or oars, and after they had cast out the men they were driven about by wave and wind and came to that part of the Maiotian lake where Cremnoi stands; now Cremnoi is in the land of the free Scythians. There the Amazons disembarked from their ships and made their way into the country, and having met first with a troop of horses feeding they seized them, and mounted upon these they plundered the property of the Scythians.

111. The Scythians meanwhile were not able to understand the matter, for they did not know either their speech or their dress or the race to which they belonged, but were in wonder as to whence they had come and thought that they were men, of an age corresponding to their appearance: and finally they fought a battle against them, and after the battle the Scythians got possession of the bodies of the dead, and thus they discovered that they were women. They took counsel therefore and resolved by no means to go on trying to kill them, but to send against them the youngest men from among themselves, making conjecture of the number so as to send just as many men as there were women. These were told to encamp near them, and do whatsoever they should do; if however the women should come after them, they were not to fight but to retire before them, and when the women stopped, they were to approach near and encamp. This plan was adopted by the Scythians because they desired to have children born from them.

112. The young men accordingly were sent out and did that which had been commanded them: and when the Amazons perceived that they had not come to do them any harm, they let them alone; and the two camps approached nearer to one another every day: and the young men, like the Amazons, had nothing except their arms and their horses, and got their living, as the Amazons did, by hunting and by taking booty.

113. Now the Amazons at midday used to scatter abroad either one by one or by two together, dispersing to a distance from one another to ease themselves; and the Scythians also having perceived this did the same thing: and one of the Scythians came near to one of those Amazons who were apart by themselves, and she did not repulse him but allowed him to lie with her: and she could not speak to him, for they did not understand one another's speech, but she made signs to him with her hand to come on the following day to the same place and to bring another with him, signifying to him that there should be two of them, and that she would bring another with her. The young man therefore, when he returned, reported this to the others; and on the next day he came himself to the place and also brought another, and he found the Amazon awaiting him with another in her company. Then hearing this the rest of the young men also in their turn tamed for themselves the remainder of the Amazons;

114, and after this they joined their camps and lived together, each man having for his wife her with whom he had had dealings at first; and the men were not able to learn the speech of the women, but the women came to comprehend that of the men. So when they understood one another, the men spoke to the Amazons as follows: "We have parents and we have possessions; now therefore let us no longer lead a life of this kind, but let us go away to the main body of our people and dwell with them; and we will have you for wives and no others." They however spoke thus in reply: "We should not be able to live with your women, for we and they have not the same customs. We shoot with bows and hurl javelins and ride horses, but the works of women we never learnt; whereas your women do none of these things which we said, but stay in the waggons and work at the works of women, neither going out to the chase nor anywhither else. We therefore should not be able to live in agreement with them: but if ye desire to keep us for your wives and to be thought honest men, go to your parents and obtain from them your share of the goods, and then let us go and dwell by ourselves."

115. The young men agreed and did this; and when they had obtained the share of the goods which belonged to them and had returned back to the Amazons, the women spoke to them as follows: "We are possessed by fear and trembling to think that we must dwell in this place, having not only separated you from your fathers, but also done great damage to your land. Since then ye think it right to have us as your wives, do this together with us,--come and let us remove from this land and pass over the river Tana also".

116. They crossed over the Tana rising sun for three days' journey from Tana North Wind for three days' journey from the Maiotian lake: and having arrived at the place where they are now settled, they took up their abode there: and from thenceforward the women of the Sauromatai practise their ancient way of living, going out regularly on horseback to the chase both in company with the men and apart from them, and going regularly to war, and wearing the same dress as the men.

117. And the Sauromatai make use of the Scythian tongue, speaking it barbarously however from the first, since the Amazons did not learn it thoroughly well. As regards marriages their rule is this, that no maiden is married until she has slain a man of their enemies; and some of them even grow old and die before they are married, because they are not able to fulfil the requirement of the law." [4]

Has anyone heard the theory that the Amazons were based on the Celtic women who would go into battle dressed like their sons and hunsbands, aka nude.

...or was it the other way round?


[edit] Where did size come into play?

One thing I never saw mentioned was that Amazons (at least in the modern mind) are thought of as being tall, and physically powerful. Is that a modern invention? Or when DID the idea of Amazons being tall and powerful come into play?

You may have Xena in mind? Or are you possibly thinking of virago rather than Amazon?
"...that wild virago!
(Thank heavens I missed her
gangster sister
from Chicago)..." (Kiss Me Kate) --Wetman 02:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Amazons and Hittites

- Were Amazons (of Greek mythology) the mutation of Hittites?

- Was Hippolyte, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Suppiluliuma I, king of Hittites?

- Was Myrine, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Mursili II, king of Hittites?

- Was Antiope, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Hantili, king of Hittites?

- Was Mytilene, princess of Amazons, the mutation of Muwatalli, king of Hittites?

Take account this note:

1) There was a town Amasia or Amaseia in Pontus in Eastern Anatolia.

2) The Amazons were supposed to be daughters of god Ares (in Greek mythology).

However, there was an river Iris or Thermodon, in their land.

Plus, in Greek mythology:

etc.

--IonnKorr 19:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


haha it's like pokémon than... Pikachu ---> Raichu etc-...


No.No.No.No. The Amazons are the people Herodotus describes. Read the last section of the article. The location is clearly north of the Black Sea, not south of it. Amazon like people have existed throughout human history; just rarely.

WAS 4.250 01:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


ok. ok. ok. ok.

Thanks, for your answer, friend WAS.

--Ionn-Korr 09:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Actually, Thermadon and Themiscyra have both been placed by some scholars in eastern Anatolia. Plus, if you place any faith in such things, Amazons were supposed to have sacked towns like Ephesus and fought wars against ancient Phrygia, and to have been allies of Troy. That said, I think the connections suggested above with Hittite kings are baseless. --

Briangotts (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Amazons were supposed to have sacked towns like Ephesus and fought wars against ancient Phrygia, and to have been allies of Troy. Says who? Based on what? Anybody can make stuff up.

WAS 4.250 15:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Three notes:

1) "War between Amazons and Troy (under leadership of king Priam)", in Phrygia and Mysia, in Western Anatolia, is mentioned in Iliad by Homer.

2) "War between Amazons (under leadership of queen Myrine) and an people Atlantes (perhaps, Arzawa) and capturing of Ephesus, in coast of Asia Minor is mentioned by Diodorus the Siceliotes.

3) "War between Hittites (under leadership of king Mursili II (= queen Myrine?)) and Arzawans (under leadership of king Uhhaziti)" is mentioned in Hittitic texts.

In during of this war, Hittites took the city "Apasa" (= Ephesus), capital of Arzawa.

Two questions:

1) Are river's name Thermodon (not Thermadon) and city's name Themiscyra related etymologically?

Thermodon < The(r)modon < Themodon

Themiscyra or Themis-kyra

2) Are name "Thermodon (~ Themodon)" and name "Amazon" related etymologically?

e.g. Amazon > *Amatjon > Thamadjon > Themodon.


Thanks to Briangotts and WAS for their comments.

[ WAS, the photo/image, in your page, is divine.]

--Ionn-Korr 19:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Interesting stuff. I did a little research and the best summary of what I found is

here.

WAS 4.250 04:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Female Military/Security units

Did you guys know that Col. Kadaffi of Libya has a contingent of FEMALE security personnel ? Heard about this before the 'net came into being long ago.Martial Law 07:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Some other world leaders may have these female military/security contingents. Martial Law 07:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please clarify citations

They attacked the Phrygians, who were assisted by Priam, then a young man (Iliad, iii. 189). Although in his later years, towards the end of the Trojan War, his old opponents took his side again against the Greeks under their queen Penthesilea, who was slain by Achilles (Quint. Smyr. i.; Justin ii. 4; Virgil, Aen. i. 490).

These literature references (highlighted in bold) are not easily understandable. At least, I don't understand the first two. Perhaps they should be made into links. Could someone who understands them please fix? SpectrumDT 21:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] amazons

amazons are turkic people

yeap i read about it
these are sources:
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]

[edit] amazons

it is only extremist(feminist) theory that something like that ever existed

Not true. You should learn about the Minoan Women. With the fall of the Minoan civilization, there has yet to be discovered a culture which was dominated by women the way the Minoan culture was.

[edit] Antiope - contradiction?

The Amazons article says "He was accompanied by his friend Theseus, who carried off the princess Antiope, sister of Hippolyte, an incident which led to a retaliatory invasion of Attica, in which Antiope perished fighting by the side of Theseus." - now, the actual article on Antiope claims that "During this conflict, known as the Attic War, Antiope was said to have fought on the side of the Amazons. She was seriously wounded and could no longer defend herself from Theseus and his retainers (which included Heracles). Watching these events take place, the Amazon Molpadia killed the queen with an arrow (some say spear), saving her from violation by the Athenian king.". Why does neither article mention the other's take on the story? ~ Luckz † 16:33, 15 June 2006 (CET)


[edit] Citations

Maybe we could include these quotes in the article?

'Once before now I travelled to Phrygia where the vines grow, and there I saw a host of Phrygian men with their quick horses...I too was among them on the day when the Amazons came, women the equal of men.' Priam, in Homer's 'The Iliad'.

'This was the origin of the Amazonian invasion of Athens, which would seem to haven been no slight or womanish enterprise.[...]For indeed we are also told that [a number] of the Amazons [who] died were buried there in the place that is to this time called Amazoneum'. Plutarch, 'Life of Theseus'.

Raystorm August 2, 2006, 16.23h

Early accounts of the Iliad, meaning early period, Pentheseleia is not found in older versions of Iliad, i.e. Homer, and is taken from a variety of late/post Homeric sources. In other words Pentheseleia and her Amazons do not appear in older versions of Homer's Iliad but in late Classical & Roman periods. Older ancient Greek graves that have been found explains the origin of Pentheseleia that she was one of Athen's fighting Amazon priestesses defeated by Theseus or Heracles. In later Greek writings they say Pentheseleia, Athene's fighting Amazon priestesses, is defeated by the Aeolian invaders; Aeolians were one of hundreds of ancient Greek tribes that existed back then and fought one another; this was the bases of the Achilles and Pentheseleia storyline since Achilles is of Aeolian origins, i.e. Phthian Achilles is an Aeolian hero. Also according to Pausanias and other ancient writers in Athens on the central wall of the Painted Colonnade found on Athene’s shield and elsewhere were fightings between ancient priestesses of Athens for the office of High-priestess and in other scenes were invasions of Attica (Attica is the region that Athens is found in) and the resistance offered by these priestesses against the invaders. ;)~Mallaccaos, 17 August 2006


[edit] Paragraphs anyone?

As in the section: Minoan vs Mycenaeans... et al. So many sections are just one long running, and quite daunting paragraph. Some sections might have several, but these paragraphs! Anyone care to make a stab at slicing some of them apart? I would do it, but I'm not too familiar with the content and I'm afraid I'll lose something important. MagnoliaSouth 14:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity

It says:

In the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica speculation ranged along the following lines.

What lines? From a reader's point of view, nothing is telling me where the lines begin and where the lines end. Nothing is indented to indicate a quote, italicized or anything. Again, since I'm unfamiliar with the content, would someone like to fix this? MagnoliaSouth 14:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Minoan Warrior Priestesses", Frank Frazetta calendar art and Conan the Barbarian"

The pop Amazon fancruft intruded here has overwhelmed this formerly sensible and carefully-written article. There is no connection between the Amazons of the Greek imagination, placed at the edges of their known world, and the historical Minoan culture of Crete, which undoubtedly had more respect for women than Hellenes' did. The connection is solely through a modern image of all strong independent women as "Amazons." It is only made possible by avoiding all serious reading in mythology, geography or archaeology. Caveat lector.--Wetman 22:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

..."When seen in profile, the full, rounded breasts, coloured white and with dark-coloured erect nipples, protrude significantly. The wide belt or girdle must also serve to pull in the rib cage, forcing the chest out and adding to the projection of the breasts. Although they might be partially supported by the pulled-back sides of the tight bodice, their firmness and lack of any indication of sagging would suggest that the woman not only is young but also has not yet had any children..." History? Archaeology? Mythology? Encyclopedia? --Wetman 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
You're absolutely right. I'm removing that section right now. Asarelah 02:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I trust we're not the only ones who thought the seriousness of the aricle was being compromised. --Wetman 03:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

the article is overburdened with tangential material now. The "Sources" section doesn't belong. The "popular culture" part needs to be split off. And the article on Minoan women is inserted here for some reason needs to be verified and moved somewhere else. dab (ᛏ) 08:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubbing Out A little Vandalism

I made a minor change to the image description of the Dahomey female warriors. As you can see in the edit history, I believe the (anonymous) person before me edited it purely with racist/inflammatory intent. I just wanted to draw attention, in case admin users could use it. My apologies for not simply reverting the page, still new to this whole system. --Robigus 00:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bogus "etymology"

The following is historically impossible: "Another popular theory reveals that the word Amazon derives from Persian "Ham Zan", meaning "all women". The word amazon appears in Homer. A possible shared source might be looked for, but modern jingoism doesn't supplant history. --Wetman 22:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "society dominated by women"?

It began with me removing the claim that the Amazons were a "land", but AnonMoos' insistence led me to consider the intro in greater detail. His claim that the Amazons were a legendary nation of female warriors, or (or as in "also" or "alternatively" or what?) a society dominated by women" appears to be in contradiction with the article body. We say that "In some versions, no men were permitted to reside in Amazon country", but nowhere do we allow for the possibility of an "Amazon society" that includes men. To allege that the "Amazons were a society dominated by women" seems to refer to speculations about historical counterparts to the Amazons, not to the Amazons themselves. So, although the current version is less ridiculous than the one claiming the Amazons were a "land", it would appear that the "or a society dominated by women" bit will have to be removed as unsourced (that is, possibly freely invented). dab (ᛏ) 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculative article

I don't like messing with someone else's article so a few suggestions:

This article is written with the thought Amazons actually existed, while no hard evidence exists. I think it could/should be stated more clearly that Amazons as a nation of warrior-women were probably entirely fictional. And please state the so-called evidence isnt worth much as a few graves of women and weapons inside it does not mean they actually used them in combat or if this applied to more than a few noblewomen (from a historians point of view).

Regarding Herodotus & others: he says a lot of things we now consider to be untrue and he can't be used as a reliable source as he got most of his information second-hand but you most likely knew this. I suggest adding that Classical writers' comments on the Amazons can be compared with that on Germanic and Celtic tribes, often giving them characteristics they might never have had (francisca axe for example for the Franks) and even making up entire tribes.

then a few weak sections:

"In Europe, Celtic and Germanic tribes often had women fighting with their husbands." often? more like sometimes.

"Among the Mongols and the ancient Turks were many heroic women." who has ever heard of a single one?

"In Scandinavia, women who did not yet have the responsibility for raising a family could take up arms and live like warriors." never heard that one before, source? Women living now could do the same thing but I doubt any do.

"In the Finnish Civil War 1918, the Reds had woman guard units (naiskaarti). They often fought more furiously than their male counterparts and seldom surrendered, as they knew what to expect if captured. Their ferocity etc..." the whole part about them fighting more furiously etc. is plain exaggeration and what's the source?

Wiki1609 11:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Although certainly some assertions like what you mentioned above need to be cleaned up a bit, I don't think that it should be stated that the Amazons were "probably entirely ficitonal". I don't know how familiar you are with the subject of the Amazons, but I think it is worth mentioning the various theories regarding them from scholars such as L.R. Farnell, J.L. Myres, Dr. Joachim Burge, and Dr. Jeannine Davis-Kimball. Even the 1911 Britannica (which is hardly a modern feminist revision!) states: "While some regard the Amazons as a purely mythical people, others assume an historical foundation for them." The article should explore the various theories regarding Amazons and not immediately dismiss them as total fiction. Asarelah 15:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not familiar with Amazons but I always thought they were about as credible as say, Atlantis. Atlantis has quite a lot of Ancient sources about it as well but is generally thought not to have existed (at least there is insufficient proof as of now). Besides this it just seems very unlikely that an all-female society should have existed because AFAIK there have never been single-sex societies anywhere. I think it loses a lot of credibility on this point. And the historians you quote also state that it might have "historical foundation", meaning female combattants will surely have existed if only out of necessity to defend oneself, but an all-female warrior nation just doesn't seem very likely, meaning Amazons as such are most likely fictional. I must add ofcourse I studied no sources whatsoever but I do know there's no comparable situation in history.

Wiki1609 19:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The modern historians have written about Amazons do not claim that the Amazons were an all-female nation of women, they claimed that the Amazons were likely based upon cultures that routinely had warrior women in them. There's a big difference between the two.Asarelah 22:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Please check the References listed for this article and make sure all the major references that you are familiar with have been included. Thank you. --Wetman 00:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merging

This article and Amazon (people) obviously cover the same subject and should be merged. I don't see much to discuss about it, it should be done. Since this is the much the bigger and longer article, I suupose that this should be essentially the integrating into this article of any information which is in the other one and not here. Andreas Kaganov 00:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Very sensible. Who could object? Don't leave any references behind. --Wetman 02:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Women Warriors section

I think we should delete the women warriors in folklore and history section on the basis that there are already various timelines on Wikipedia detailing the history of women in warfare, and especially detailing historical women warriors. The section is getting longer and longer and most, if not all, of the information contained in it can be found in the timelines. We can simply replace the section with a link to the timelines. Agreed? Asarelah 17:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Tricky, insofar as European explorers and scholars once had a tendency to name many individuals and groups of non-submissive or exotic women "Amazons". While history and folklore are potentially separate categories-- let alone the diverse cultures and situations of these women and folklore are from-- the subject as a whole is of genuine scholarly interest, such as women's studies. And it is certainly a category of contemporary pop culture. I would recommend a separate listing for Women Warriors or some equivalent title. — Yamara 22:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the idea of "Women warriors" is that what defines a "warrior" (as opposed to a soldier or war leader) appears to be pretty hazy. There was a category of "Women warriors" and it was deleted. Perhaps it would work better if we simply included a link about historial women in war and left in the folkloric and fictional information in the article. Please give me your opinion on the article Timeline of women in ancient warfare, and let me know if you think it and the various other women in war timelines would be suffiecient for the subject of women warriors. Asarelah 23:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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