Talk:Alumnus

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Contents 1 Expansion request 2 More talk 2.1 Updating Google statistics 3 Link suggestions 4 Faculty 5 alumni = graduate? 6 The recent move 7 viewpoint 8 Page location 9 graduate redirects here

[edit] Expansion request

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. This article has been tagged since January 2007.

[edit] More talk

The OED claims that Alumn is a "slangy casualism" and recommends the use of Alum instead, also claiming that this spelling is more common. Google seems to confirm this, although I haven't checked whether the results for Alum and Alumn refer to what the article is about. If they do, we should move the article. Kokiri 21:34, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Alumnus" gets significantly more Google hits than "Alumn". "Alum" gets far more than either, but most seem to be other meanings (to do with Aluminium, for instance), and not this meaning. Proteus (Talk) 11:28, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

For this meaning, "alum" is definitely more common than "alumn." However, there's already an article on alum. Why not move this article to "alumnus"? :) --Lukobe 21:10, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Both "alum" and "alumn" are informal. But "alumnus" and "alumna" are sex-specific. So I have moved the article to "alumnus/a". As for "alum" vs. "alumn", I get alumni newsletters from several schools and colleges, and I've never seen the term "alumn". Google searches on the phrases "college alum" and "college alumn" give 6170 vs. 134 hits, so I think it's fair to say that the usage "alumn" is rare -- which makes it bizarre that it was used as the article title. By far the most common term of all is "alumni", but (a) this is a plural (which Wikipedia articles names are not supposed to be) and (b) it is not sex-neutral. --Macrakis 21:34, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Alumnus" is sex-neutral. In Latin the masculine gender is used to describe a person of unknown sex (or people of unknown sex, or a group of people including both men and women). Proteus (Talk) 22:36, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your point. However, it seems to me clearer and less contentious to make it explicit that the article is talking about both male and female alumni by calling it "alumnus/i". In fact, I suspect that the reason it used to be entitled "alumn" was precisely to avoid the suffixes... at the cost of using a form which is quite rare in actual usage. --Macrakis 01:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We need to move it back... soon! WhisperToMe 20:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Could you be more explicit? What do you propose to move this article to, and why? Macrakis 09:33 4 Aug 2005

"Alumni" is frequently pronounced as "alumnae," thus making no distinction to the casual listener. It's problematic.

The page's title should be changed to alumnnus/a - one user stated that alumnus was gender neutral because the masculine form is used to refer to both men and women, and while this is true in a sense, it is a very sexist tradition. It is the same as using "man" or "men" to refer to men and women. See a standard MLA Style Manual for more information on removing sexist language from reputable publications, etc. It is not considered acceptable in many areas to use the pronoun he to refer to men and women, etc. - changing the title to alumnus/a avoids offending anyone and thus seems to me to be the most logical fix. Nadsat 22:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Also see my referenced inclusion on the page about using alumnus/a and alumnae/i to remove sexist language. I redirected the page to alumnus/a AND redirected alumni, alumnus, alumna, alumnae, and alumn to the new page so that there are NO double redirects. AND also on the alum page I changed the disambiguation at the top to say alumnus/a (to reflect the new page name). Please respond here on the talk page before reverting! I made sure that I edited responsibly so there are no double redirects and thus the change will not cause a problem or inconvenience for anyone, instead it merely reflects MLA guidelines etc. for removing previously accepted sexist language. It especially makes sense since the first sentence of the page references both the term alumnus and the term alumna. Thanks! Nadsat 02:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Updating Google statistics

The article was recently moved back to "alumn" despite the above discussion, so I thought I'd update the Google figures to make sure they're still valid. In all cases, I searched for the phrase "college alumXX" and its plural, not just the word, e.g. [college-alumn | college-alumns]. Alumnus/i has 2700k hits; alumna/ae has 125k; alum/s has 37k; alumn/s has 0.5k. So alumn remains very rare compared to the alternatives, and the forms alumnus/i/a/ae are 83 times more common than all the other forms combined. So it seems clear that the article should be named using that form. Using alumnus alone seems inappropriate because it is masculine; hence alumnus/a. --Macrakis 17:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link suggestions

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Alumn article, and they have been placed on this page for your convenience.
Tip: Some people find it helpful if these suggestions are shown on this talk page, rather than on another page. To do this, just add {{User:LinkBot/suggestions/Alumn}} to this page. — LinkBot 10:38, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Faculty

I'm noticing Alumn** being used with former faculty members who were NOT previously students. I don't think this a correct usage, is it? Before I start changing categories and articles, I thought I'd ask here. --Samuel Wantman 20:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I think this case is covered by the following part of the current article:

Recently, the definition of "alum" has expanded to include people who have "matriculated at" or exited from any kind of organization or process. As such, one can potentially be a "corporate alum" of XYZ Company, or an alum of a military branch, non-profit organization, or training process.

--Macrakis 22:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] alumni = graduate?

I'm currently in need of more info about this issue. Can anyone show any evidence that alumni now actually admit matriculated students etc? I've met resistance at my own university about this topic.

--Thomasrm 21st of february, 2006

I too would like to see more evidence/etymology on alumni being a broader term that includes those that did not graduate. Even if the dictionary definition on this point is correct, it's not usually the way it's used in public, and I think this point needs much more explanation. Wl219 10:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The recent move

Someone just moved the article back to Alumn. Was there any discussion? --Lukobe 04:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No, there was no discussion. I updated my statistics above, and will move it back. --Macrakis 17:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] viewpoint

• An alumnus is a person, especially a boy or man, who has attended or is a graduate of an educational institution. The plural is alumni. An alumna is a girl or woman alumnus. The plural is alumnae.

I think this is very neutral. It doesn't say alumnus is only for a boy or man. It says a person, especially a boy or man. I think it is very clear.(209.177.21.6 - Talk)

Well first of all alumnus is the "masculine form" and typically does refer to a male graduate. The sentences "the plural is alumni" and "the plural is alumnae" are sloppy, choppy, and not very clear. I would like to know the exact issues you have with this intro:

An alumnus (masculine) or alumna (feminine) is a person who has attended or is a graduate of an educational institution. The masculine plural, alumni, is often used for mixed groups and the masculine singular is sometimes used generically. The feminine plural is alumnae

That's what I am mainly curious about -- why do you not like this. I think this is more correct because it is true that in Latin, alumnus is the masculine form and alumna is the feminine form. This intro goes on to describe the words in terms of their Latin forms which makes sense. Instead, your version of the intro assumes that the masculine form must be applied to someone who qualifies as a "boy or man" and the feminine form must be applied to someone who qualifies as a "girl or woman." Also what is the difference between girl or woman and boy or man? When does one switch from a girl to a woman and a boy to a man? It seems a bit vague and arbitrary to describe it as such. Also the term especially seems favoring. It seems (moreover since these words come from Latin) that it makes more sense to discuss the words in terms of their word forms, not in terms of who the terms are used to address -- at least in the opening. The usage section of the article goes on to discuss the actual common usages of the terms. Please respond to the questions and further explain. Your above explanation was a bit vague. Thanks. Nadsat 23:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It says an alumnus is a person which means it can be a man, woman, or child but it is especially for a boy or man. A girl that graduated or attended elemntary school would be an alumnus. A boy that graduated or attended elementary school would be an alumnus. A man that graduated or attended college would also be an alumnus. An alumna is strictly for a girl or woman alumnus. I'm using a school computer if you are curious why my IP address is different.(207.156.197.1) - Talk)

Still, it seems much more logical to talk about these words in terms of their forms i.e. masculine or feminine - and the USAGE should go under the usage section. See? This is only the intro of the page, the words have certain masculine or feminine forms but technically if a "man" wanted to call himself an alumna he could couldn't he? He would be using the "feminine" form but he COULD call himself an alumna. Thus, your version of the intro is very vague. Why don't you find references and add the discussion of the usage of the masculine/feminine word forms to the USAGE section. That seems more logical doesn't it? Also, as previously stated: The sentences "the plural is alumni" and "the plural is alumnae" are sloppy, choppy, and not very clear. N.B. - I relocated your response so that it is below my response and above my new response so we can keep the posts in chronological order. It makes it more clear and less confusing for everyone (including me!)Nadsat 20:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page location

A user made a suggestion in the midst of an ancient thread, not even in the most recent "The Recent Move" section, and then moved the page a few hours later to Alumnus/a claiming there had been discussion. I've moved the page back and reverted the redirects.

Such a compound form is virtually never used and the use of a / in the title creates style problems. Using compound forms have been widely deplored in numerous proposed page moves and the like - can anyone cite another page that basically has two names combined in the title to produce a term never used?

My personal preference would be for the plural "alumni", although in my experience "alumnus" is often used regardless of gender - many seem willing to abandon the rules of Latin when using words in English. (And why not? That is how a language evolves and absorbs other words.) "Alumnus/a" is frankly one of the worst forms imaginable. Timrollpickering 20:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The following was posted on Timrollpickering and directed towards this particular user (and thus uses the pronoun "you" to refer to said user). Yet, since Timrollpickering decided to post on the alumnus talk page about this issue, I will paste my response to him/her here as well for whomever it may concern. Thanks.

Okay. I didn't realize I should make a new discussion about it, apologies for that. YET, if you were thorough, you would have seen on my explanation of my edit I wrote "m (moved Alumnus to Alumnus/a: removing sexist language - see my comment on the talk page about it)" - So I instructed you to look on the talk page for my comments. Also, I am not sure if the "compound form" is used on any other pages, I will research that but it may take me awhile to gather a list, but this is almost a moot point anyway (*explanation in following sentences for this conclusion). Also typically the masculine forms and feminine forms have their own pages. "Man" has a page that refers to people with male gonads and "woman" refers to people with female gonads. Etc. Also, just because the majority of wikipedia has uncited material and material with no sources doesn't mean we should follow that trend. I think there is a strong case to be made that the use of the term "alumnus" for a page that talks about alumna and alumnae is illogical and not a good idea, just like uncited information. I believe this analogy makes sense because it illustrates that just because one circumstance is more prevalent, does not mean this circumstance is the right circumstance, that it should occur, or that we should be assume culpability for making it reoccur. Also, please see the alumnus article and the ONLY REFERENCE on the page which I added when I added the information and follow the link for the dicussion on the usage of alumnae/i and alumnus/a. Feel free to visit these links I found within seconds of using Google. For uses of alumnus/a: [1], [2], [3], [4] AND for uses of alumni/ae: [5], [6], [7],[8]. These are just a few. Many of these links are from presitgious Ivy League colleges, instituations and nationally acclaimed boarding schools. Look, it's a compromise anyway - and a valid one at that. I could say use "alumna" as the title but that would be "counterproductive, counterintuitive, and illogical" as well. Even the a is just a "/a" here. Really, "alumnus/a" and "alumni/ae" are well established and respected. As I urged you before pick up a MLA Style Manual and check out what they deem "removing sexist language." I see no need to call it sexist (personally) or point fingers, language has faults, and they have been fixed. In the academic world and grammatical circles this usage is really preferred. Hope to hear from you soon. PS. (I don't want my tone to sound mean, I don't mean to be rude for the sake of being rude - just passionately logical, please read it as such). Nadsat 21:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, in case I didn't make it clear in my previous post - the above links should illustrate that the forms alumnus/a and alumni/ae (or alumna/us and alumnae/i) are not only used, but used quite frequently, since in your explanation of your revert of my edit, you stated that the form I used (alumnus/a) is not used, which is obviously incorrect. Nadsat 01:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] graduate redirects here

I'm not sure about the usage internationally, but I'm a bit concerned that graduate directs here. I think the two words have slightly distinctive meanings. In the UK, alumnus refers to people who have formerly been students at a particular institution. However, graduate as a general noun refers to any person who has qualified at any institution with an award at bachelors level or higher Tafkam 00:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't tell the foundation degrees that! ;-) "Graduate" is one of those words with subtle differences in meaning including:

"Person who graduated" in anything.

"Person with a university qualification", although it's not always clear which non degrees are included.

"Person who completed university" - as well as people starting "graduate jobs" before the actual ceremony itself, there are stories of people who don't actually take their degree in the end - a common involves refusing to pay debts to the university who in turn refuse to confer the degree.

Simple it is not! Timrollpickering 11:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)