Talk:Alternative comics

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Contents 1 Elfquest 2 Dump of addition made by User:219.93.174.101 2.1 Introduction (for non-comix readers) to creators and work emblematic of the altcomics movement 3 Art movement v publishing movement 4 Dump the list 5 American Bias? 6 The Invisibles 7 Indie comics?

[edit] Elfquest

I wish to expand upon my reasoning for getting rid of the Elfquest image. While Elfquest is not completely a mainstream comic, I don't think its an image that really embodies the spirit of alternative comics. It still deals with a genera that is very common in comics, fantasy as opposed to alternative works which try to tackle generas outside of this. I hope you undertand my reasoning, and I might ask permission to upload and display a famous example that I feel embodies what alternative comics are about. (In particular I'd recommend the first graphic novel "A Contract with God" because of its historical significance to US alternative comics.

I agree with your resoning for removing Elfquest. How about a new image that shows a number of significant alternative comics? ike9898

While I agree that Elfquest may not be appropriate for the title image, I think it's fair to say that it, along with Cerebus, is probably the most prominent of the indy/alternative comics -- the Starblaze reprints were the first "graphic novels" to get into mall bookstores, and probably the first successful western comic to be strongly visually influenced by anime. It's easy to underestimate its novely and overstate its allegedly commonplace tropes -- the elves, for example, are painted more as noble savages than the aristocratic types of Tolkien.

I have an entirely different point of view about "alternative" comics, one that barely includes Elfquest, and I'm not sure how to negotiate it here. While no doubt Elfquest sold more copies than the other comics mentioned here, as measured by (my perception of) its influence on critics and other artists, it is not of great historic value. But my POV assumes that the present state of the art of what we're talking about should refer to things like Acme Novelty Library, not manga. And to comics with pointedly "adult" themes. To my mind, titles like Maus, RAW, Weirdo, Love and Rockets, Eightball and Yummy Fur are each infinitely more prominent in this history than Elfquest, or than many of the comics that have been recently added to the description (the comics published by Epic, Escape, Pacific, etc.). Anybody have a sense of how to reconcile this conflict? Are we talking about two seperate histories?--BTfromLA 06:01, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Elfquest is historically important as an alternative comic, primarily with regards to self-publishing; it was a first-waver. At a certain point it was Elfquest, Cerebus, First Kingdom and not much else, at least on the American scene. It's not a question of sales or artistic exploration (per se) but of envelope-pushing in the distribution arena. Note however, that this refers specifically to the original twenty-issue magazine size Elfquest series, not the Elfquest property as a whole. Also note that it was considered to have "adult themes" at the time, because the market as a whole was so much thinner. So yes, in a way, we are talking about two separate histories. Maybe more.24.165.210.213 08:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Elfquest illustrates why we need to differentiate between "alternative" and "independent" comics. Though these two arenas clearly overlap, "alernative" now clearly implies something more specific. Elfquest is paramount to the history of indy comics, but it is was only occasionally "alternative," at least in respect to its themes, adult material, etc.

Maybe it's time to split the article or make a clean differentiation between those comics that were created and released by independent publishers and those comics that focused on topics and subject matter that is alternative to the mainstream.

Maybe it's a problem of the category -- when we define something (like "alernative") by its relationship to something else, it's going to be incohesive and imply multiple "histories".

Good points, all. I suppose this is the sort of thing that should be wrangled over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics, as it points to larger questions of organization: do we structure comics-related entries by marketing category, or chronology, or theme, or publisher, or physical format, etc. I'd think the goal would be to come up with something that is as simple and consistent as possible.

In hopes this will help to clarify those issues, I'm going to copy this discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics.--BTfromLA 18:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dump of addition made by User:219.93.174.101

This editor added a long series of short descriptions of comics creators; it was largely unencyclopedic and unwikified, it didn't follow the underground/alternative dichotomy we've established, and any information salvageable should be in any case added to the individual articles on creators. The dump follows. -leigh (φθόγγος)

[edit] Introduction (for non-comix readers) to creators and work emblematic of the altcomics movement

Robert Crumb: Founder of underground comics – Creator of characters such as Mr. Natural and Fritz the Cat. Severely attacked by feminists for his often misogynistic cartoons. The subject of Terry Zwigoff's award wining biopic/ documentary, 'Crumb' (which is produced by David Lynch) I have his works all in anthology format, including a signed and numbered hardcover collection. (Zap comix, My troubles with women)

Daniel Clowes : One of the greatest and most versatile artists and writers today… does everything from punk slapstick to lurid surrealism to VERY poignant naturalistic fiction to violent noir trillers. What ever he does, it’s always surprisingly original and genre-defying. Responsible for Ghost World, which you might have heard about, it adapted into a critically acclaimed movie (also directed by Terry Zwigoff, Clowes wrote the screenplay) three years ago. Clowes is Modern Literature at its finest. (Eightball, Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron, Ghost World, David Boring)

Joe Sacco: Journalist working in the comics medium, unique for his humanistic approach to journalism. Spends time in war-ridden countries and makes comics out of his experiences. Prior to this he has worked mostly in comedy and autobiography, even then his work was very political. (Palestine, Safe Area Gorazde)

Peter Bagge: Influential artist with an rubbery outrageous cartoony style, synonymous with the grunge movement in Seattle, Large body of work mostly revolves around cynical and misanthropic Gen X slackers, most particularly the semi biographical character, Buddy Bradley. Has since mellowed down and dabbled with humorous journalistic pieces and D.C comics (Did a short-lived – yet brilliant – series for DC called Sweatshop, an anti-establishment satire on the comics industry… how ironic.) A master of situational comedy. (HATE!, Neat Comix, Studs Kirby: The voice of the nation, Sweatshop)

Art Spiegelman: Best known for MAUS, a story about his father’s account of the holocaust, illustrated with all the characters as anthropomorphic mice. Very unsettling, not only because of the depiction of the sufferings of Jewish prisoners of war, but also his antagonistic yet understanding relationship with his father, a survivor of the war. A veteran of the underground, he edited the avant-garde comics anthology RAW in which MAUS was first serialized. Recently edited and published a collection of comics for children, Little Lit, and a Post 911 comic, in the shadow of no towers. (Maus, In the Shadow of No Towers)

Chris Ware: An obsessive-compulsive perfectionist of an artist, probably the greatest illustrator in the world. His work has to be seen to believed. Writes VERY depressing stories in contrast of his innocuously beautifully rendered drawings. Work first appeared in RAW has roots in the avant-garde, his comics are very experimental. (The Acme Novelty Library, Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid in the World)

Chester Brown: Minimalist Montreal based artist with a unique style. Best known for his autobiographical comics which deal with adolescent alienation and sexuality. Recently did a biographical comicbook based on a Canadian anarchist, Louis Riel, which I have yet to obtain. His shorter, less serious works can often be very weird. His first book, Ed The Happy Clown is about a Clown whose penis gets stuck on Ronald Regan’s head after it sticks in an anal-dimensional doorway(?!?!!) (Yummy Fur, The Playboy, I Never Liked You)

Seth: Sophisticated New Yorker-styled cartoonist outrageous for his comics UNsexiness. Draws comics about his nostalgic obsessions, senile old people, retired fan salesman and boring shit. Except the way he writes it is far from boring. They are very engaging and deep. Good friends with Chester brown, they draw each other as Characters in their autobio strips. (He’s only in his late 30s, not 75 like his comics suggest. (Palookaville, It’s a Good Life if you don’t Weaken, Clyde Fans)

Joe Matt: Humorous autobiographical cartoonist whose work is (although quite funny) also very disturbing … he’s on a pathway to self destruction. His ‘diary strips’ have so far recorded his violent fights with his girlfriend, his addiction to pornography, his various character flaws and his inevitable break-up with his girlfriend. Most disturbing is the pornography part… This guy thinks of nothing but porn all day long! Good friends with Chester and Seth, who are also characters in his autobio and has to bear his sad, deterioration ever since. (I think the three of them influenced each other to work in this genre) (Peepshow, The Poor Bastard, Fair Weather)

Harvey Pekar: Founder of autobiographical movement. Writes a series called American Splendor, about the plight of the working class in Cleveland. Which was made into a very good movie in the same name released last year. Frequently collaborates and is a good friend of Robert Crumb. A very intellectual literary enthusiast and Jazz collector, his comics range from mundane daily happenings to illustrated essays on his thoughts on authors/music/politics etc. (Amrican Splendor)

[edit] Art movement v publishing movement

The "Alternative" category is described here (correctly, in my view) as an art movement that grew out of the underground comix movement. But some of the stuff that was talked about here earlier (see Elfquest, above) about the "independent" (i.e., not Marvel or DC) publishers that emerged (and mostly died) in the 1980s is still here. I'd like to trim that out, or move it to an "independent comics publishers" entry, or some such. Many of these "independent" comics are "genre" comics that clearly were not part of the same underground-inspired movement that includes The Hernandez Brothers, Chester Brown, Dan Clowes, etc. While publishers (Fantagraphics in particular) are an important factor in the story of Alternative comics, I think it is most useful to focus on the qualities of the work, which include serious literary and artistic experimentation. Any objections if I take a stab at trimming what I see as the extraneous stuff? --BTfromLA 20:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dump the list

I've very tempted to remove the long list of Alternative Comics as it doesn't really serve any purpose. Perhaps it should be replaced with a survey of key creators / titles and the various 'schools' within Alt comics to give the reader a better flavour of the range covered?

Any objections?

Peteashton 05:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Lists of this type are problematic in Wikipedia. Every reader adds their favorite to the list of notables and soon it is enormous. That being said, the lists really can be helpful to the reader. If I didn't know anything about alternative comics, I would want the article to name some examples. Maybe your suggested scheme would be better, but be careful not to make it to much like 'original research'. I don't think it would be appropriate to class creators into different 'schools' if these schools are your own original classification system. ike9898 16:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

POV in classification is a major issue, I grant you, but there are some trends that have been recorded elsewhere such as the Highwater Books and, um... I'll have a scour through my Comics Journals for some "year/decade in review" pieces and see what jumps out. Also anthologies tend to act as good markers in the development of alt-comic.

I should add that I don't in any way think this should be definitive - more a cursory survey that helps the reader dig deeper. Peteashton 22:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Bias?

Some relevant non american comics are not cited in the article: the french magazine Métal Hurlant ('74-'87) and the italian magazines it:Il male ('78-'82), it:Cannibale ('77-'79) and Frigidaire ('80-'86). The most internationally know character/work from these italian magazines is RanXerox.
--BMF81 12:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey man, WP:BOLD. ike9898 15:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

All right buddy :) --BMF81 17:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

In some sense, underground/alternative/independent comics were a largely American phenomenon in that there was, at least in the past, a major split between underground and later alternative comics and mainstream comic books and strips, largely enforced by a comics code and very narrow genre conventions. In Europe and Japan, where comics have always been considered a serious art form, this stark dichotomy didn't exist; there have always been "serious" comics in those countries. By European standards, North American alternative comics might not have ever seemed terribly non-mainstream to begin with. I could be wrong about this – if there was a strong non-mainstream comics movement in Europe or elsewhere, by all means add information about it to this article. Peter G Werner 02:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I probably should have looked up the links you listed, first. Métal Hurlant was the French predecessor to Heavy Metal, which has never considered part of "alternative comics". That was more of a predocessor to the kind of "alternative mainstream"/cyberpunk trend exemplafied by publishers like Image Comics and the like. Peter G Werner 02:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Invisibles

I am not really familiar with The Invisibles, but I wonder if is really the type of comic described in this article. It was published by DC. Although its subject matter is not exactly 'mainstream', it still seems to be an adventure, good vs. evil thing. Do it belong on the list? ike9898 17:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, from what I have understood, although a traditional adventure comic on surface, its all-encompassing conspiracy theories are so far out, it couldn't be classified as anything else. 惑乱 分からん 16:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, it's published by respected yet mainstream Vertigo and by an acclaimed mainstream comic creator after he had already achieved fame. It's not alternative. (unsigned comment from user:70.112.133.72 )

[edit] Indie comics?

I notice that someone has created the 'indie comics' category. That seems inconsistent with the terminology used in wikipedia comics related articles. Opinions on renaming the category 'alternative comics'? Or deleting the category? ike9898 17:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)