Talk:Alsace

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Contents 1 General advice 2 Identity 3 List of notable Alsatians 4 Political bias 5 Alsace/Elsass 6 Elsaß non Elsass 7 General complaints 8 Religious exception? 9 download size 10 Music 11 Sauerkraut 12 Language 13 "Politics section" 14 Sounds like an advert. 15 Need help

[edit] General advice

Wondering how to edit this région entry? The Wikipedia:WikiProject French régions standards might help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShadowDragon (talk • contribs) 23:30, 5 June 2004 (UTC).

[edit] Identity

Since its conquest by Louis XIV, Alsace has been more loyal to France than German, because Louis XIV freed the serfs thus allowing greater growth and freedom. THis should be placed in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.106.127.101 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 26 August 2004 (UTC).

Alsace is a very good exemple for forced assimilation of minority populations. Maybe it's the best exemple of mass-brainwashing of an ethnical group in Europe. While the Alsatians where definitely German in speech, culture and language for more than a milenia, the French occupation wiped out them ethnical and national identity and forced them to become "good French citizens".

If we compare the situation of the German speking Alsatians with the situation of Transsylvanian Hungarians of Romania, we should ask very seriousely: Why the Latin Romanians have been so tolerant and democratic in manners of conduct with the minorities since centuries and why the Latin French have not?

In Transsylvania, since the XI-th century, the Hungarians settled among the large Romanian populations, as conquerors and privileged social strata. Before 1918, the "Transsylvanian-style apartheid" prevented the entering of the Romanian majoritary populations into the cities and into the profitable bussiness of Transsylvania. Even so, the Romanians constantly developed into a democratic and liberal minded community. The union of Transsylvania with Romania, after the WWI meant the introduction of Universal Vote for all citizens, the end of "Hungarian style apartheid" and cultural and national freedom for all the ethnical groups. The Romanians granted and ensured free State-sponsored Hungarian schools for all, cultural freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of settlement. The Hungarian speaking schools, theaters, cultural foundations and papers are largely sponsored by the Romanian State (1920-2006 - period). During the Communist regime, the Hungarians where largely over-represented into the Romanian Communist Party (20% of the membership, compared with abb. 7% of the total population).

After 1990, the Positive Discrimination Policies are favoring the Hungarians in school, university and job enrolement, even that the economical situation of the Hungarian minority was always slightly better than that of the Romanian majority. The official use of Hungarian language is granted in every community made of at least 20% Hungarians. The Hungarian language is used in justice, administration and culture; 15% of the actual Romanian Government personell (2006)is made of Hungarians (the Hungarians are 6.5% of the Romania's population as compared with 89.4% Romanians - data of 2006). Today, in 2006, the Hungarians are 19% of the Transsylvanian population (compared to 75% Romanians).

What is very strange is the fact that in France one can read and hire, among "intelectual and educated societies" complains about the "bad situation of the Hungarians in Romania" but not a single complain about the forced assimilation of the poor German-speaking Alsatians. Odd ! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.196.150.157 (talk • contribs) 06:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC).

[edit] List of notable Alsatians

On the list of notable Alsatians, Albert Schweitzer is conspicuous by his absence. Sca 18:30, 5 October 2004 (UTC)

Albert Schweitzer has been added.

Shouldn't Baron Johann de Kalb be included on the list as well??? Samatva 21:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Johann Gutenberg is said to be from Alsace but he was born, died and lived the most time of his life in Mainz / Rhineland-Palatinate. He spend some time in Strasbourg (1434-1444) but does this make him an Alsatian? Cattleyard 09:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political bias

The history section in the article is totally biased (with anti-French/German nationalist approach), and needs to be seriously rewritten. Hardouin 03:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can you explain the nature of the bias? Thanks Guettarda 23:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please see my comment at Talk:Lorraine --Tkinias 01:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Revisions for NPOV. I suggest the NPOV tag now be removed.

• "Alsace and Lorraine were reunited with Germany after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870" - corrected; Germany did not exist before 1870 so there was no question of reunification
• "After World War I those Alsatian, who moved in from other parts of Germany, were expelled. The re-establishment of German identity was reversed following the German surrender in 1918." > "After World War I the re-establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, while Alsatians who came originally from Germany were expelled." I.e., "other parts of" removed
• "while putting a halt to the anti-German oppression" = "oppression" changed to "discrimination", a correct and less emotive term
• "The war-torn area was given again in 1944 to France, which had then free hands to restore its policies." > "..which restored its policy of promoting the French language."

Rollo 13:49, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The flaws run far deeper than a few offensive expressions. As I suggested at Talk:Lorraine, we need a discussion of the Alsace-Lorraine issue. The problem is that the "two sisters" have immense potency as nationalist symbols on both sides of the border, and both sides try to paint the regions as "really French" or "really German", when in fact they were neither for most of the history, because nationalism hadn't been invented yet. And the "anti-German" policies were not anti-German, but standard French republican centralization and homogenizing -- the same process going on in Provence, Bretagne, etc. --Tkinias 14:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's a silly argument, we're talking about anti-German culture, not anti-German government. German culture, despite your claims to the contrary, did indeed exist and has existed for a very long time. And because the French also executed the same policies in other areas does not mean that they are somehow not descriminitory. Indeed to this day the French government has been attempting to cleanse ("homogenize" if this is your preferred euphemism) minority languages throughout France. Unless you're a staunch nationalist I see it diffucult to say how you could honestly describe the specific banning of a language as not being discriminatory. It's as if a racist were to say "I don't hate black people, I just want to homogenize everyone so they are white" Hvatum 02:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is clearly a more complex issue than simply one of two colliding nationalisms. But as to the question of whether the article is even-handed, I can't find anything factually suspect. And the tone seems to me reasonably fair to both sides. Now it would seem to be just a question of adding a section to highlight the points you raise. --Rollo 10:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What about a new article that both Alsace and Lorraine can link to? I might be able to write one up after the end of the semester here. —Tkinias 11:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why not? As it happens I don't know a lot about this subject - I was just trying a bit of neutral dispute resolution. Still, the NPOV tag still seems to be there... Rollo 02:00, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Everybody knows-Alsatians are pseudo-French. VIVE L'ALSACE ALLEMANDE !!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.132.237.185 (talk • contribs) 12:35, 4 December 2004 (UTC).

Just like "everybody" knows that Ukrainians are pseudo-russian and Tawianese and Tibatans are pseudo-Chinese? If you're going to weasel your above opinion into all the articles online stop posting on Wikipedia. There's no such thing as "everybody knows" and such statements do not belong in Wikipedia, even on the discussion pages. Also in the future sign your comments, you can do so with four tildes ~ in a row at the end of each commentHvatum 08:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

---A very good example for a neutral point of view is the page about the macedonians. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.132.235.218 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 January 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Alsace/Elsass

Alsace was part of the German-speaking territory of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648 when most of it was wrested from the Emperor by the King of France in the Treaty of Westphalia which concluded the Thirty Years' War. The Emperor ceded Alsace outright to avoid having the King of France as member of his estates. Later in the same century, Strasbourg was also seized by Louis XIV, who reinstated Catholicism.

Whilst Alsace is largely German-speaking (and, strictly speaking, most German speakers do not speak Standard German but Alsatian dialect, a dialect identifiable as German without any doubt whatsoever), it is difficult to say whether it is definitely 'German' or 'French'. The German-speaking Alsatians share a status similar to that of German-speaking Austrians in the Southern Tirol, i.e. they are part of a geographically continuous German speech community but find themselves located in a neighbouring state with an unrelated national language. One may ask to what extent German-speaking South Tiroleans look to Vienna rather than Rome, and in the same way the German-speaking Alsatians look to Berlin.

The following points may be of note.

1. The first-ever printed German Bible was published in Strasbourg in 1466 . During the 16th century, there were probably in excess of 3000 books printed in Strasbourg. Of those known, only three were in French. The rest were in German (the vast majority), Latin or other languages such as Greek. Strasbourg was a very important centre of German protestantism and many of Luther's works were published there during the sixteenth century. These facts, along with the existence of Albert Schweitzer, tend to be overlooked by histories written in French.

2. A German nationhood or even nationality was only just begining to emerge within the multi-ethnic and multi-lingual Holy Roman Empire in the 17th century. Therefore it would not be correct to say 'a part of Germany was siezed by the French', but that is not to say that Alsace could never have been described as 'German'. It was very firmly entrenched in German cultural influence. More important to the ordinary Alsatian in the 17th century were his freedoms.

3. After the defeat of Napoleon, the Austrian Emperor refused to let Alsace become part of Prussia for fear of Prussian strength. Through this most unlikely demonstration of generosity to the French, Alsace remained part of France.

4. Alsatian German was the main language of most people until the twentieth century; however, the ruling classes and wealthier middle classes tended to speak French in the nineteenth century.

5. It may well be the case that German and French languages acquired a social connotation during the 19th century, and emerging social conflict therefore exacerbates the language and national question.

6. When Alsace-Lorraine was reunited with the German-speaking world in the German Reich under Bismark in 1871, its status was inferior to other German Länder. It had far less representation than others and it was a personal domain of the Kaiser. It was termed 'Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen'.

7. There were migrations from Alsace of wealthier French speakers at this time, and many German-speakers moved in from Germany proper. At this time, standard German became the official language, but it is not correct to say that French was banned or ignored. There was a (albeit unequal) dual lingualism.

8. Through its membership of the German Reich, the region developed and industrialised, and there are many monuments to this period (1871-1919), such as the railways, the Postal Service, the 'Ville Allemande' in Strasbourg, etc. The population grew and the region prospered. The University of Strasbourg was founded.

9. Where the sympathies of the Alsatians lay at the outbreak of the First World War is hard to say. They were enlisted to fight for the German Reich, of course, and did so often in the remote East (East Prussia). This may, or may not, be a token of the German Army's uncertainty about their loyalties. Often Alsatians were described unflatteringly by officers. It is hard to say whether the population of Alsace as a whole welcomed German defeat and its subsequent reincorporation into France or resented it. There was undoubtedly a mixture, and it depended largely who you were and what you had to gain or lose.

10. After the First World War, significantly, the French refused a plebiscite in the region and expelled all Germans who had settled there during 1871-1919. This was an early example of 'ethnic cleansing'.

11. The German language was suppressed in the period between the World Wars.

12. Undoubtedly, German rule 1940-44 was uncompromising. Again, no plebiscite was granted after the Second World War, unlike the Saar region.

13. It seems strange, at least to the eye, to imagine an historian as eminent as Phillipe Dollinger arguing for France with such a German name; it is odder to find Alsatian speakers with German names saying they are definitely French. During the Wilhelmine period, over 80% of the region described itself as German-speaking in the censuses.

14. There have been movements for autonomy since the 19th century.

15. In conclusion, it is possible to say, on balance, that Alsace, and Strasbourg, belong traditionally to the German Kulturkreis. However, it was never part of a German nation state except for the period 1871-1919. It is interesting to speculate how a plebiscite might have gone after the First World War. After the Second World War, German became 'unfashionable' as the language of dictatorship, and French was eagerly embraced by the inhabitants. This is now giving way to a cautious resurgence of interest in German roots and Alsatian dialect. Standard German is now being favoured in schools. However, this may undermine, rather than strengthen, dialect. In the cities, virtually all speak French and German is not heard that often. French people as a whole are far more sensitive about Alsace than Germans; e.g. a museum worker in the Museum of Alsatian Life in Strasbourg reacted indignantly when he was asked about the state of the German language in Strasbourg. His reply was 'ce n'est pas l'allemand, c'est l'alsacien!' The French never want really to use the word 'German' in connexion with Alsace. (The Germans are far more sentimental about the loss of their Eastern Territories (East Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania and Silesia) than they are about Alsace-Lorraine.)

16. Finally, it is worth noting that the French have always had a far more prescriptive and illiberal language policy when compared to the Germans. Native historians have always tended to be biased about the affiliation of Alsace. We need to remember, too, that language does not define nationality, contrary to what the French King Francois I proposed in the 16th century.

A notable link for German-speakers is www.elsass-lothringen.de —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.111.52 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 8 December 2004 (UTC).

Very interesting - how about incorporating some of this in the article? Point 5 in particular is an excellent point that surely needs including in the article. --Rollo 21:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Elsaß non Elsass

There's no reason to use the controversial modernized spelling for Elsaß when citing the German name; it was spelt with the ß when the province was part of Germany. (It's particularly odd to use the ss spelling when mentioning the stamp overprint which very clearly uses the ß.) This isn't German Wikipedia, so we don't have to follow the whims of German governments... —Tkinias 09:21, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Except to say, Tkinias, regarding your (correct) assertion that this is not German Wikipedia) that ß is not a member of the English alphabet, and that Elsass is not a word in English at all. The whims are not just German, but also Austrian. Switzerland has never used the ß character. Elsass is a more useful spelling nowadays, especially given search facilities on the internet. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.46.132.91 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 23 December 2004 (UTC).

Please log in and sign your comments; anon comments are not very helpful. I've fixed Strasbourg and added a note about the modernized spelling for Elsaß. Whether ß is part of English spelling or not is irrelevant when citing German names. —Tkinias 02:22, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] General complaints

Will the person who 1) cannot spell or write standard English properly, 2) cannot punctuate properly, and 3) doesn't know his facts, stop editing this article. Some editing comes from the US which no doubt explains it.

Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.46.155.152 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 7 February 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Religious exception?

I have read that Alsace (and the northern part of Lorraine) is exempt from the 1905 French separation of church and state because it was part of the German Empire at that time. Instead, when it was retaken by France it continued to follow the Napoleonic Concordat of 1801, under which Catholic, Protestant and Jewish clergy are paid by the state.

Is this true today? If so, it should be added to the article. Funnyhat 03:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes it is. Rama 08:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article contains a link to Separation of church and state, which explains this in some detail (see "France" section). olivier 08:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] download size

When I load this site it starts to download quite a lot with no apparent reason to me. At least 10 MB, after that I halted it. So, what's up with that? --80.130.148.47 15:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music

Does anyone know anything about the traditional music (or classical music) indigenous to Alsace? A musician friend of mine is of Alsatian ancestry and is curious about it. I can find nothing online but a band called "Holatrio Hop'sasa" of Colmar but even their website is down. Thank you, Badagnani 01:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

===> In Alsace, the traditional music is influced by the East and Germany.

some representatives of the Alsatian music:

• Jean-Pierre ALBRECHT
• Roger SIFFER
• ...

You can have other information on [1]

Wsswfrench 13:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sauerkraut

'The gastronomic symbol of the region is undoubtedly Sauerkraut!

'The word "Sauerkraut" derives from the Alsatian "Sûrkrût", which means "sour cabbage"'

This statement is misleading. "Sauerkraut" is a High German word which means "sour cabbage." Indeed, it is a form a cuisine which is not unique to the Alsace region and as such I doubt that the High German term is "derived" from the given term in the Alsatian dialect. I would proprose the following to replace these two phrases:

'The gastronomic symbol of the region is undoubtedly Sauerkraut, or "Sûrkrût" in Alsatian, which means "sour cabbage."' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jav209 (talk • contribs) 05:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Language

> Alsatian is closest to Swiss German.

i am a bit surprised by this. i am from the palatinate in germany and the people always sounded quite like us and not like swiss. (in fact, i have extreme trouble to understand swiss german) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.76.29.2 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC).

[edit] "Politics section"

I could not 'elp but to read zis wiz a mock French accent :) No disrespect to the autor or his contribution but I'll try to rewrite and consider the appropriateness (some bias?) chochem 10:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes please do so, this article has too many weasel words for my taste. I removed the "felt obliged" phrase. A summary of German/French language dominance after a war does not need redundant and emotionally charged wordings such as "Felt Obliged (to speak French)" - Why or how did they "feel obliged"? Or "Were forced to speak German" - in what way were they "Forced" to speak German. We're dealing with facts here, not opinions.

Only actual events, laws and actions have relevance here. An example such as the law passed by France after WWII limiting German to a % of content in Newspapers is relevant to such questions. Vague meaningless weasel words are not.Hvatum 08:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sounds like an advert.

Part of the first paragraph sounds like it might harken from a brochure. "Wrapped in history, Alsace to this day is a center for Europe, if not the center, and a tremendous spot for tourists. Its cosmopolitan background makes it a worthwhile place to visit." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gentlyfloatingabout (talk • contribs) 15:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Need help

Hey User:R9tgokunks

I just wanna warn you that Alsace is french, and it used to be some days a part of the German Empire... but there is quite a while, and since the Napoléonic wars, Alsacians are more attracted to France than to Germany.

I'm an Alsacian and I'm living in this land for ever, all my ancestor since the year 1512 are alsacian... so I know more than you about Alsace's History. So trust me, Alsace righfuly belongs to France.

I totaly agree that Alsace used to be a part of the German Empire but Alsacian don't feel and don't want to be german !!! That's all !!!!

Village's name are german, i agree, but there are thousands years old ; and in the article, you are speaking about actual alsacian and on this last point, i'm at odds with you beacause actual alsacian are totally agree with the fact to be a part of France !!! no-one there want to be german!!!

bye user:Paris75000 00:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Rightfully belongs? This is POV. Wikipedia is no place for original research. Add references for everything and if can't be references then it can't go in. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the above comment is very POV. But he is basically right. I'm also Alsatian and you guys simply don't understand the situation. The posted article provides information that does NOT reflect the reality of Alsace, because people fail to distinguish cultural, historical and political aspects of the question. Here's how I see it:

- Alsace's historical culture is Germanic. Please note that I use the word Germanic, not German. In French, the distinction is clear because the respective words are germanique and allemand. Lot of people here fail to grasp the nuance. Germanic relates to culture, German relates to the nation. Anyway, Alsace was culturally Germanic, as reflected by its gastronomy, its local language, a lot of its architecture, the names of villages and people... You will not find many people, in or out of Alsace, to disagree with this.

- Alsace is politically French. Here's why. Alsace has historically been populated by merchants, artisans and bourgeois, the people who were denied power by the aristocracy. There is no strong aristocratic tradition in Alsace. Thus, it flourished as a fairly independent state of the Holy Roman Empire. Louis XIV's efforts to impose customs were understandably rejected because the region had flourished through trade. Because of their situation, the Alsatians welcomed the fall of the monarchy 200 years later. Look at the military leaders they provided France under the revolution and Napoleon: Kléber, Lefèbvre, Kellerman... Thus, I would say that in terms of philosophical and political orientation, Alsace became closer to France. It's true that we have special legal status for quite a few things, but that doesn't change the fact that Alsace identifies more with the laws and political traditions of France than those of Germany.

So to answer the question of whether Alsace is "really" French or German, I would say that it is politically French, but has Germanic (NOT GERMAN) cultural roots. Let me add that the Germanic culture is waning and that just by dint of being a well-integrated French province for the last 60 years, all that remains of Germanic culture is historical. Alsatians today rarely consider themselves personally culturally Germanic.

I think the article should be made to reflect these ideas. Agree? Disagree? no signed User:AxelW

Well, I'm not at odds with you, I agree that Alsace's got a germanic past nevertheless, what made me upset what this : difference and User:R9tgokunks had got a biased view of what Alsace is or what to be : a actual french city with european ambition... and did not what to talk about on the appropriate page User talk:R9tgokunks section Alsace or on this page. So without talking, how do you what we expose our arguments? Sincerily. user:Paris75000 10:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Here are a few minor changes i've made to the culture section: - saying Alsace is historically part of the Holy Roman Empire makes no sense, one could just as well say that Alsace and France were both historically Frankish/Germanic, but the region developped its own identity and culture, the HRE is only a part of it. I feel the rest of the article makes this clear. - Alsatian is not really most similar to Swiss German - "More often assumed to be bilingual": not really, not more so than Bretagne or Corsica. I'm changing it to "sometimes" - rephrased other stuff in language paragraph - rewrote paragraph on German Axel 19:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)