Talk:Alizée

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To-do list for Alizée: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  • Work on reviewing the article - update according to the article expansion.
  • Expand information on her charitable work.
  • Get confirmation of her new album from a reliable source.
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Good article Alizée has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.
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[edit] Video List

This link was recently added. I reverted it, as I felt it matches point #4 of WP:EL Links to Avoid guidelines. Not sure though. Neither, I felt, it added any encyclopaediac value to the article. I am open to talking it out if someone feels otherwise. --soumসৌমোyasch 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

IMO, there is no point adding a link to a list of videos by Alizee, whether it includes YouTube videos or not. The article already contains a list of her singles, so adding the list will only add redundancy to whatever encyclopaediac value it has. --soumসৌমোyasch 05:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 04:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not exactly sure of this video, coz I have not seen the original copyrighted material. Nor would I advocate its deletion myself. So if you would want it deleted, go ahead. --soumসৌমোyasch 12:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Main Picture

The main picture used in the article shows her in an unnatural pose. Thats why I think it should be replaced. I know it is hard to find a good enough free image of hers to use here. Thats why, as a better alternative, I uploaded this image (see the archived version of the article with the previous image and with the newly uploaded one) which also is taken from the same music video but shows her in a more natural pose. If you feel the the newer image is better suited, please update the fair use rationale on the image description page. Thanks. --soumসৌমোyasch 20:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks good, I've removed the temporary notice and deleted the old image. JACOPLANE • 2007-02-16 13:49
Thanks. --soumসৌমোyasch 06:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] J'en Ai Marre outfit

"The stage costume for the same performance is considered by many to be inspired by a blue sailor outfit seen in the 1997 remake of Nabokov's Lolita, due to a noticeable similarity in design." I remove this as I couldn't find any sources for it. BJTalk 11:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I support you on this one. Quite sometime back, I removed that line as well as "A dance that can be performed by the female Night Elf avatar in the computer game World of Warcraft, published by Blizzard Entertainment, contains an animation that closely resembles the choreography of a section of her stage performances for J'en Ai Marre" because no reputable source seemed to back it up. But it was reintroduced. Later I stopped making the changes leaving it to others to decide. I still don't support inclusion of the WoW bit. --soumসৌমোyasch 12:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Removed. I also removed it from the J'en ai marre! article pending a source. BJTalk 12:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Why not include it? Both the male blood elf and male draenei dances are mentioned in the respective Napolean Dynamite and Tunak Tunak Tun articles. Further, from the Night Elf article, it notes both the originations of the male and female dances, those being from Michael Jackson and Alizee. 70.113.203.123 07:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Since all those information isn't attributed to any source, I am against following their lead and including it in this article. --soumসৌমোyasch 12:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi... random wiki-browser. For starters, I have played WoW for a few years now and find it curious that there is no reference between Alizee's dancing style and that of the female night elf dance within WoW. It's pretty clear that the inspiration used for the female night elf dance routine is Alizee's style during some of her performances (from the videos I've seen), or at the very least since that cannot be factually sourced, something should probably be noted about the similiarities. Like I said, it is strange that there's no mention of it in the article; I could see a small trivia section or pop-culture reference being added. I'm not sure if you will ever find an "official" source, but it's a pretty clear conclusion to make; its right up there with "water is wet". Considering that WoW is still pretty mainstream and there are about fourty billion videos of people using fraps and other recording software to make dancing night elf videos, it'd be pretty easy to quantify the similarities as fact. Would links to the two seperate videos (one night elf, one Alizee) for comparison be sufficient?
Also, I'd be willing to bet that there could be other things besides WoW that could be attributed to Alizee. In addition, the article seems to be somewhat woeful in describing her particular dances, especially considering the article states dancing is her real passion. I'm from the US and info on Alizee is very rare (essentially what I've been told and Wikipedia), so there's little I could add to the article that is varifiable. Just making some observations that are some food for thought.... --70.109.135.181 07:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
As you probably know, we do not add our own opinion to articles, we only add facts. Even if a billion people (who browse or edit Wikipedia) play WoW and think there is a similarity between the two dance styles, it is still their opinion, and thus qualify for being classified as Original Research. And being editors, we have to follow the policy of attributing our sources and cannot merely add own own thoughts. We have to give a reference for any information that we state, and cannot add anything which is Original Research. We have to refer to other sources which state the same. But, as you yourself state, ther will probably be no official source claiming the inspiration for the elf-dance was indeed Alizee's performance. Almost all references will point to blog entries. While these are indeed verifiable, they are classified as Primary Sources. Wikipedia Policy on Reliable Sources advise against using Primary Sources, which do not come from reliable and notable sources. Most blogs which indeed state this information do not classify as notable.
Also, linking to the WoW video is not enough, as it would be out of context. If you link to both the J'en Ai Marre video and a game video of WoW, if would still be lacking context. If you tell what to look out for, it would be deliberately attracting attention to one's Point of View and thus not allowed. Also, it would be without attribution.
Regarding your other suggestion that Trivia section being added, well, it is generally discouraged. Also, you could say that something on this lines of ...many people note that the videos are similar...' could be added. But Avoid Weasel Words policy guideline suggesst avaiding such (some people say or many people note or widely regarded to be) statements without a citation. Keeping, all these restrictions, policies and guidelines into note, I do not see a way to add the bit of info. And anyone who is interested in such trivia, can readily get it from the fan-sites that are already linked to. The links are kept to allow for people to find out trivia, rumors and other stuff that cannot be added here.
And as you properly noted, the article lacks a bit regarding her dances, but it is because not much information is publicly (verifiably, reliably) available. Also, the article can do with a bit more discussion on her albums, concerts and charity work. Be assured we are working on them. Chip in with whatever (info or suggestion) that you can. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, and cheers. --soumসৌমোyasch 15:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free use image

Not one free images exits of her? It might be kinda of hard to get one till she returns but wouldn't hurt trying. I have already checked flickr with the creative commons search and nothing on commons. BJTalk 11:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I tried for quite sometime, but failed to get even one good photograph of her. Have given up now. :( --soumসৌমোyasch 17:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persondata

Why isn't this page showing up on [1]? --soumসৌমোyasch 17:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Good question... BJTalk 17:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 :) --soumসৌমোyasch 20:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
That list isn't in alphabetic order; Alizée is on the third 500 item subpage... --Derlay 22:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alizee Search

An external link to Alizée Search ( http://www.alizeesearch.com/ ) was recently added. However, that is just a specialized search engine and aggregator. And its operated by http://www.alizee-fanpage.com/ (which is already an external link). Since we neither link to more popular search engines, nor do we link to news aggregators, why should we link to this one? And if the Alizée Search article is deemed noteworthy enough, I think just a See also link to that article would be better (as the external link to the site does not have any (verifiable) information that could not be incorporated into the article, as per WP:EL). --soumtalk 04:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the external link and created a See also section that links to the Alizée Search article. --soumtalk 14:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Can I still give a response to your first remarks here? Allow me to do that pointwise:
1. Why do you think it is operated by Alizée Fanpage? To my knowledge it is not.
2. Linking to results pages of search engines is indeed discouraged in point 9 of the "Links normally to be avoided"-section of WP:EL, because of the "Longevity of links" (WP:EL). The external link to Alizée Search is not a link to results pages of a search engine. It is better covered by point 2 of the list of "Links to be considered" in the "What to link"-section of WP:EL.
3. If I understand it correctly, in your opinion WP:EL says that an external link should contain "verifiable information that could not be incorporated into the article". I think that the external links are fine, but if that is the criterion, then why does the article link to:
4. To me WP:EL says that an external link should have "meaningful, relevant content". Furthermore, WP:EL says that links to Web sites with "objectionable amounts of advertising" should be avoided, that copyright issues are important, and that freely available Web sites should be preferred. Notice that Alizée Search does not contain advertisements, nor is it copyright protected. Therefore it seems to fit the spirit of Wikipedia. Isn't that the actual criterion that is raised throughout WP:EL?
Could you therefore reconsider your edit or clarify your opinion? Thanks, Ekna 12:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Almost all sites puts the copyright or ownership information at the bottom of the page. So, I looked there and the alizee-fanpage copyright notice was put up. So, I assumed it ran the site. But now I see that it was the aggregated content the copyright notice was for. It was a mistake that I initially said it, and I retract my statement.
Point 9 of Links normally to be avoided says Links to search engine and aggregated results pages (emphasis mine) should be avoided. The Latest News section is an aggregateion of the most recent search results (plus maybe some other criteria, but the point is it IS an aggregation and thus very short lived).
Point 2. of Links to be considered states a web directory category, when deemed appropriate by those contributing to the article, with preference to open directories can be linked. However, a search engine (topical or not) can not be defined as a directory. A Directory (Web directory) is an organized collection of links to other websites. True, a search engine has a collection of links to other websites - the database of links is highly focussed in a topical search engine. But it differs from a directory. In a web directory, it will just give me a list of links pertaining to the category of the page or the subject of the directory (if its a topical directory). But a search engine does not provide any link (or for that matter, any useful information), per se. It only returns relevant hits when I search something. So, for a search engine to be useful, I need to know what information I want for it to be useful. And if I know what I want more information of, I (or anyone else) can very easily use generic search engines as well.
What should be linked states that only sites or articles that contain meaningful material about the subject of an Wikipedia article should be linked. Since a search engine does not host the content myself, it fails this basic necessity. IMO, links should be to repositiories of information, not to tools that help find the information.
Also, websites that host content that infringes-copyright should not be linked. However, it is hard to say whether by linking to a search engine, we are linking (albeit indirectly) to copyright-infringed content or not. Giving the benefit of doubt, its better left out.
Also, as per point 9 of Links normally to be avoided, Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject should not be linked. A topical search engine is only indirectly related — it is related to articles, which in turn are related to the topic. This also indicates the link should not be there.
However, since there is a relation, I thought it might be worthy of a mention. Wikipedia:See also#See also states the See also section is for internal links to articles that are related to this one (direct or indirect, irrespective). Thats why (and because Alizee Search has an article), it is a better place. In the context of that article, a the Alizee Search website is directly related and thus a very important candidate to be linked in the External links section.
As per point 2 of Links to be considered, I have linked to the Open Directory Project, which is intended to be a linkfarm (something Wikipedia is WP:NOT). Out of the two categories candidate for linking - http://dmoz.org/Kids_and_Teens/International/Fran%c3%a7ais/Divertissements/Groupes_et_artistes/Aliz%c3%a9e/ and http://dmoz.org/World/Fran%c3%a7ais/Arts/Musique/Genres/Rock_et_Pop/Pop-Rock/Francophone/Artistes/Aliz%c3%a9e/ - I linked to the one that is more populated and time invariant (Kids and teens? She is neither kid nor teen. Not anymore). They can be developed.
When the links were incorporated into the article, the WP:EL guideline was to have a maximum of three fan-sites/fan-forums - provided they were popular enough. Following that, we have kept these links. Only these three because te alizee-forum is a multilingual one, and the Alizee America one is a English-only one (English sites are given prominence in English wikipedia - thats why it scored over Nidalizee. The discussion can be found in talk page archives). However, since then the EL guidelines have changed. You are right they need to be updated.
Starting with point 10 of Links normally to be avoided (Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET), the Alizee forums and Alizee America links should be removed. And I support their removal. However, the Alizee-fanpage link, it can be argued that the link is directly related to the subject (it hosts content about Alizee, including summaized news snippets) (Point 13, Links normally to be avoided - Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject [should be avoided]: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article). As such it should be kept in the article. (I endorse this one as well). However, to comply with more restrictive guidelines in case they come up in the future (interpreting related as being endorsed by the subject), I suggest the link directory be developed. Also, I would like others views on this.
As for the dead links, the references are dealt with the guidelines mentioned in Wikipedia:Citing sources#What to do when a reference link "goes dead". As for the offline official site, it is kept because point 1 of What should be linked states Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any should be linked. While a dead link does not provide any information, it is of historical importance - to show that she had an website, which was once first hand source of information. And it is this information that can be partially retrieved using the archive. This follows the guidelines in WP:EL#What can be done with a dead external link. --soum (0_o) 20:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

I recently expanded the article (changes). --soumtalk 21:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Good job on the expansion. Hopefully her new album will start being talked about in the press soon, so that we can take the article to the next level. JACOPLANE • 2007-03-20 22:31
Thanks, I am waiting for that before trying an FA candidacy :) --soumtalk 06:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I removed links to the forums as per the rationale above:

Starting with point 10 of Links normally to be avoided (Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET), the Alizee forums and Alizee America links should be removed. And I support their removal. However, the Alizee-fanpage link, it can be argued that the link is directly related to the subject (it hosts content about Alizee, including summaized news snippets) (Point 13, Links normally to be avoided - Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject [should be avoided]: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article). As such it should be kept in the article. (I endorse this one as well). However, to comply with more restrictive guidelines in case they come up in the future (interpreting related as being endorsed by the subject), I suggest the link directory be developed. Also, I would like others views on this. --soum (0_o) 20:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to revert me if you disagree. --soum (0_o) 17:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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