Talk:Aliyah

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What about the controversy surrounding Aliyah? How about the debate over allowing Russian Immigrants in? What about the debate over quotas? What about the refusal of allowing non-Jewish people, including Palestinians, to immigrate? Mr100percent

While I was in Germany, I saw something on CNN about the Israeli government giving free tickets to Jews who wish to live in Israel.- B-101 16:08, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 21st century Aliyah 2 "Land of Israel" 3 White Slavery 4 See also 5 2 recent edits 6 Liel Liebovitz 7 Bnei Menashe 8 France 9 Jewish housing/employment 1945-48 10 Romania 11 Split 12 "making aliyah" 13 before and after the reading 14 Argentine aliyah 15 Pre-zionist approach to aliyah

[edit] 21st century Aliyah

Since 2000, Jewish immigration to Israel/Palestine has fallen by more than half compared to the late 90s. In 2006, they numbered less than twenty thousand, a nine percent drop compared to a year earlier.

This drop should be referenced in the article, along with the Jewish Agency numbers for the past six years, which are availible. Avoiding this dramatic decline is part of a subtle, but pervasive tone of boosterism that compromises the the objectivity of the article.

The russian alyah being almost over, the drop is no surprise. Interestingly, the number of Western Jews has increased in the 2000's, in particular from the USA and France. Benjil 11:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Land of Israel"

"Land of Israel" in the lead sentence seems to me to be an anachronism, and one that is almost certainly here with the intent of making a political point. Our article Land of Israel makes the claim that "During the British mandate of Palestine, the name Eretz Yisrael (abbreviated א״י Aleph-Yod), was part of the official name of the territory." This may be (first I've ever heard of it, to be honest), but it was certainly not the case when the Aliyah started in Ottoman times. Jewish sources from the time almost universally used the term "Palestine", as can be easily ascertained from the 1901-1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:15, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

While Jews may have referred to the land as "Palestine" in English, nearly all Jews would use the cultural, religious term Eretz Yisroel (Land of Israel) when referring to Aliya. Aliya is at heart a religious term emphasising the spiritual "assent" that comes from living in the Holy Land. The term Aliya therefore is very much linked with the term Eretz Yisroel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.107.145 (talk • contribs) 26 July 2006.

[edit] White Slavery

Then there is the nasty business of girls from the "former FSU" coming to Israel under "Aliyah" to become sex-slaves. We don't want to go there. Forget it.24.64.166.191 05:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] See also

"Aliyot before the establishing of the Zionist movement": What is the point to this red-linked "see also" to an unlikely article title? Can someone at least change this to a title someone might use for an article? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This article -- Aliyag -- should cover pre-Zionist immigration as well. The link ought to be removed.--Doron 01:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2 recent edits

This edit by Sakranit changes day and number related to Operation Solomon without citation. Since the old date and number were not cited, either, I don't know what to make of this.

This edit by Al-Andalus asserts as fact, without citation, that the Bnei Menashe Jews from India descend from the Ten Lost Tribes. Given how much controversy there is around any claims pertaining to the Lost Tribes, I am very skeptical. At the very least, if this is to be in the article, we should cite who claims this. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Liel Liebovitz

Mainly out of curiosity: how does Liel Liebovitz, born in Israel and an advocate of aliyah of American Jews, come to be living in New York? Does someone know? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the wonders of Wikipedia: I got a response from the man himself. Excerpting from our email exchange:

LL

I've read your questions about me and my book, "Aliya," on Wikipedia, and would like to respond. I'm a ninth-generation Israeli who had left the country in 1999, for a variety of reasons, and immigrated to New York. As soon as I arrived here, I became fascinated with those American Jews who travelled the opposite path, making Aliya to Israel, and so interviewed a number of them and wrote a non-fiction book about it. My conclusions are that Aliya, commonly perceived as being an act motivated by a sole force, Zionism, is more complicated: While in 1947, for example, Zionism was certainly the driving force behind Aliya, in the present Aliya is mainly practiced by Orthodox Jews who often choose to move to West Bank settlements out of religio-political motivations. I have some more info on the subject, if you're interested, on my website, www.lielleibovitz.com.

JM

Thanks. Yes, I would agree that Zionism and aliyah as understood in the pre-State (or even pre-1967 or arguably pre-1982) years were a very different matter than what is mostly happening today.

Did I mischaracterize you when I described you as "an advocate of aliyah of American Jews"?

LL

…I am not an advocate of Aliya, especially having myself chosen to leave Israel and settle in New York. I'm fascinated by it as a sociological phenomenon -- the lack of traditional push/pull factors and the predominance of ideology are thrilling -- but am far from embracing it as the only, or even the best, course of action recommended to American Jews. The book, in fact, ends with a conversation I had with one of the Americans who had made Aliya, in which he states his opinion (mine as well) that it matters not where you choose to live but what's in your mind and heart.

Jmabel | Talk 21:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bnei Menashe

"The Bnei Menashe Jews from India, which were only recently discovered and recognised by mainstream Judaism as descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes…" Is this true? Can someone cite for it? They may, indeed be recently recognized, but as descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

On March 31, 2005, Israeli Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar, announcing the state of Israel’s recognition of the Bnei Menashe as part of the lost tribe of Menashe. Its a known fact. -- Spoil29

Thanks, being able to add "Shlomo Amar" to the search terms gave me much more relevant hits. Let me see if I understand correctly. In summer 2004, Amar (the Sephardic Chief Rabbi) led a delegation to India to examine the matter. [2] In March 2005, he declared that they were genuinely descendants of the lost tribe of Menashe. [3] In November 2005, out of respect for the Indian government, the Israelis have halted conversions in India to Orthodox Judaism, but are instead letting the Bnei Menashe emigrate first and then be converted. [4] And the challenge was more a matter of Indian politics than actual dispute as to their descent, is that correct? Just out of curiosity, do you know if anyone is still disputing the descent? Has the Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi just implicitly consented or actively agreed? - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually yes, the majority of the Indian state of Mizoram (home of the Bnei Menashe) are still Christian and have not converted to Judaism, while half of them agree that they are decedents of Israelites, they choose not to convert anyway. The other half strictly deny this fact. I have no idea what the Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi thinks, I don’t believe he has been public about it. -- Spoil29

[edit] France

Seems to me that there's an awful lot here about anti-Semitism in France. I've never exactly been a fan of French attitudes toward Jews, but in this context this would only be relevant insofar as there is a statistically significant recent aliyah from France. Is there? The article gives no numbers on this, it just makes what seem to me to be misleading if technically accurate remarks disparaging the situation of the Jews in France. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[5] [6] Just to name a few.

[7], about anti-Semitic murders in France. -- User:Spoil29

2500 in a year out of 600,000 does not seem all that massive. How does this compare to earlier numbers? - Jmabel | Talk 07:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Well it may not seem massive but remember, France is a very developed western country, where for the most part, people live comfortably. The Aliyah numbers have been rising since the intifada. 2001- 1,007 2002- 2,035 2003- 2086 2004- 2,415 2005- 3,005 User:Spoil29

Not to trivialize it, and clearly the rise suggests something that belongs in the article, but it seems to me that what has been written in the article is rather disproportionate to about 2% of French Jews making aliyah in six years. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

First the number of Jews in France was 500,000 according to a large survey in 2000. Which means less than that today. The numbers here about the Aliyah do not include all the people who left to Israel without making aliyah ; it does not include of course the people who left for the UK, Canada and the USA (many thousands also). And most important - the Jews who leave France are mostly young. The young Jews leave and the olders stay. Benjil 11:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well an increase is an increase. But you are welcome to edit it. -- User:Spoil29

While what is described in the latter article sounds truly appalling, I'm not sure what to make of it. frontpagemag.com is not a particularly good source; while I will assume they have their facts straight about the actual killings, they are not a source I would find convincing on anyone's motivations or whether something was part of a pattern. - Jmabel | Talk 07:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I remember reading this in the nypost some time ago, however, I could not find it anywhere but frontpage.-- User:Spoil29

[edit] Jewish housing/employment 1945-48

So what were those hundreds of thousands of Jews doing for a living during this period. What did they do for housing? I can't find any info about this except pro-Arab accusations that they stole homes and farms from the Arabs.

See Austerity in Israel. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 02:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romania

No mention of communist Romania trading emigration permits for foreign currency? --Error 01:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I've heard about it too. Is there a reputable source we can use? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 02:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

There's supposed to be a recent book on Moses Rosen that goes into this in depth, I haven't seen it. But I don't think there is much dispute any more about the broad picture. Ceauşescu also "sold" Transylvanian Saxons to West Germany. I'm in a hurry right now, but I'll try to follow this up. - Jmabel | Talk 00:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split

While I don't know so much off-hand, there is tons of info that can be added for both the first and second aliyahs (and probably 3rd, 4th and 5th too), and therefore they should probably have their own articles. In any case, each of the first aliyahs is a major topic on Israeli history. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I have now created both First Aliyah and Second Aliyah. They should probably be expanded. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

When you say: "it is thought that few survived the bloody upheavals caused by the Crusader invasion in 1229 and their subsequent expulsion by the Muslims in 1291" Do you mean the expulsion of Crusaders by Muslims or explusions of Jews by Muslims. It not clear the way its currently written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.10.185.73 (talk • contribs) 24 July 2006.

I didn't write the passage, but almost certainly the expulsion of Crusaders by Muslims, since that existed and (to the best of my knowledge) the other did not, at least not in the relevant period. - Jmabel | Talk 18:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "making aliyah"

The following was in the article. It obviously was talk page stuff, not article stuff. Does anyone have an answer?

(Note: when did "going on aliyah" become "making aliyah". In Jewish English one talks about making Shabbos ie making the Sabbath. It seems to be a direct translation from German.)

- Jmabel | Talk 03:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

"Making Aliyah" is the contemporary English idiom. Don't know when or why a change occurred. --Shirahadasha 00:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] before and after the reading

It seems to be against logic that "before and after the reading" you make aliyah. When you climb up onto the bimah, you have to climb down after the reading. Please clarify! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.123.68.168 (talk • contribs) 16 August 2006.

Edited clarifying meaning. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've actually never heard of "making aliyah" being used in the sense of an aliyah to the Torah. Rather, I've always known that sense as "getting an aliyah" or "having an aliyah," where aliyah is just a noun meaning "section of Torah reading." The usage in the article may be someone's conjecture...

From what I know, there are really two distict sets of semantics:

• Aliyah (Israel): making aliyah, doing aliyah
• Aliyah (Torah): getting an aliyah, having an aliyah

--Eliyak T·C 21:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argentine aliyah

The following was placed in the article as a section header with no content: "66,696 Jews have come to Israel from Argentina since 1948." It was also with no citation. If someone has something citable on this, it probably belongs in the section on Argentina. - Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-zionist approach to aliyah

Benjil has reverted my edits pointing out that the concept of mass aliyah before Moshiach is an innovations of zionism, claiming that this statement violates NPOV. I have reverted it back. Perhaps he could elaborate as to why he believes otherwise. Yehoishophot Oliver 08:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

And I reverted it back. You can't introduce your own private point of view in Wikipedia, in particular before discussing it. Anyway the idea that the gathering to Israel occurs before the Mashiah is not an innovation of Zionism (which is a secular ideology and does not deal with the Mashiah issue), and in fact was the point of view of the Rambam and most great rabbis. Benjil 10:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

So, we can discuss it. It's not my private view. On the contrary, it's the view in the article that is someone's private view. Jews prayed throughout the ages to return to the Holy Land with Moshiach. That is the fact. That point is deliberately left out due to the writer's POV agenda.

I've reverted it back again.

On the contrary, the Rambam writes clearly in laws of kings 11:1 that it will be Moshiach who will gather the exiles only after the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Now that I've quoted a source, if you have sources that indicate otherwise, the onus now lies on you to prove so. Yehoishophot Oliver 12:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you are not going to impose your personal agenda. Your view is a very minority view inside Judaism. Most rabbis, may I remind you, are Zionists, and even Shas describes itself as Zionist. Their have been aliyoth all over history and the idea that we have to wait for the Mashiah before is *modern*. In fact, the Rambam himself *made Aliyah* and explained it was forbidden to leave Israel. The fact that the Mashiah will gather the remnants of the Jews to Israel does not mean that it is forbidden to make aliyah before him. Just that, as today 60% of Jews are still outside Israel, he will bring them back to Israel. Benjil 13:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Whoa, talk about lacking NPOV. "Most rabbis are zionists." (What does Shas' self description have to do with anything?) I'd always thought the opposite, but whatever. Did you take a vote, or something? Anyway, I have quoted a source, viz. the Rambam, and you have provided no counter-source, only made sweeping baseless statements. Now the onus lies on you to prove your point quoting a counter source.

You seem not to understand that your POV is only yours. Your source did nothing to support your point about the Zionism inventing something or the fact that "mass" Aliyah was forbidden. As for most rabbis being Zionists, it is easy: Zionist Religious represent 15-20% of the Israeli population ; Shas Haredim are 5% ; other non-Zionist Haredim are 5%. Easy count. Benjil 15:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Again (you didn't read my last post, apparently) I never said that "mass" Aliyah before Moshiach's coming is/was forbidden. All I said was that this was not something that Jews traditionally prayed for. As for most rabbis being Zionists, how about measuring it in terms of rabbis and in terms of world Orthodox Jewry, and you'll get a vastly different count. RZs are certainly not a majority of Orthodox Jews. Yehoishophot Oliver 17:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

RZ are a majority of Orthodox Jews in Israel and in the world. I gave you figures for Israel where the vast majority of Orthodox Jews live. In the Diaspora, it is more difficult to assess but from my personnal knowledge, it should not be very different. Sorry. Benjil 11:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

So I did some online research (at least on the Holy Land), and I've found that you're facts are wrong. RZs are not a majority :

Several recent studies by the Guttman Institute and the Avihai Foundation, the Floersheimer Institute, the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, and others reveal that the Jewish population of Jerusalem is divided into four more or less equal groups -- in Hebrew, haredim, datiim (meaning Religious Zionists), masortiim (traditional), and hilonim -- not just into haredim and hilonim. http://www.jcpa.org/jcprg2.htm

According to this it is clear that RZs represent at most a third of the Orthodox population--which makes them, of course, a minority group, contrary to your claim. Yehoishophot Oliver 14:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

So you can't even know how to read now ? You are speaking here of Jerusalem. And masoratiim are not Orthodox, they are not religious, by definition. So, in Jerusalem, known for its huge Haredi population, even there, they are only half of the orthodox population. Once again you prove my point. Benjil 16:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

2. You misunderstand me. I never said that someone ever had to wait before making Aliyah. Indeed, it was done. Never said otherwise. I said that the notion that it is proper for all Jews to make aliyah en masse as opposed to waiting for Moshiach to redeem them, is an innovation of the Zionists, and I'm still waiting for you to adduce a counter-source. I certainly never said that "it is forbidden to make aliyah". I said that the notion that mass (operative word) aliyah before the coming of Moshiach is a positive goal that ought to be promoted is a new idea that did not exist historically, and it's intellectually dishonest to superimpose it on the prayers in the Amidah.

Well you are wrong. Just a little example: ever heard of Rav Kalisher ? He was before the Zionists. Benjil 15:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

So, it started with him, then. When did he live, in the 1800's? If so, I can add that this idea started in the 1800s. Either way, you have proved my point that a prayer for a mass return to the land before Moshiach is NOT what the Amidah is talking about. Yehoishophot Oliver 17:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

3. As for not leaving, this is confusion. The prohibition to leave the land of Israel has nothing to do with a Mitzvah to get up and go there, which is a separate matter entirely. The former does not necessitate the latter. However, the article clearly implies that such an obligation is held to exist by "most rabbis", when the only one who holds this is the Ramban. I challenge you to find contemporaries of the Ramban (Rishonim) who agree with him on this point.

Please provide solide sources for your views before reverting again. Yehoishophot Oliver 15:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well you are the one who changed the text, not me, and you have until now absolutely no source at all to sustain your point of view. You are the one supposed to prove it BEFORE making the changes. Benjil 15:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I certainly did quote a source: re there not being a yearning for mass aliyah before Moshiach I quoted the Rambam in laws of kings 11:1 who rules that it will be Moshiach who will gather the exiles only after the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. As for the idea that there is an obligation to make Aliyah, I pointed out that only the Ramban holds this.

I grant that I didn't quote sources before. But now that I have, it behooves you to find counter sources before reverting. I'm waiting. Yehoishophot Oliver 17:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Your source does not prove your point, in fact it means absolutely nothing in our discussion. And now you also contradict yourself as you say than Ramban defended the idea of mandatory Aliyah - so it is not an invention of Zionism. Thanks a lot. Do you even read what you write ? And don't come with the innovation of the "mass" Aliyah argument - if it is a mitsvah to make Aliyah so all Jews should make it.

Anyway, in Wikipedia you can't write POV things like "it's a Zionist invention" and say it is a fact when most people disagree with you and yourself have no argument for it. So either you write "some ultra-orthodox sects believe than mass Aliyah is possible only after the coming of the Mashiah" (and by the way, most non- Zionist Haredim do not believe that just a tiny minority), or you don't write anything. But if you continue your vandalism, I will ask for you to be banned from editing. Benjil 11:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course my sources (the rambam and the ramban) prove my points. Why don't you explain why you think that it doesn't? It goes to show that you have no response. The ramban was the only one who believed that aliyah was an obligation, correct. That doesn't mean that he conceived of it as taking place practically; due to the danger of living in the land, it was next to impossible to put that into practice en masse. The idea of something being practically possible and it being an obligation are separate notions. Which is why the Ramban himself didn't live there for many years. Do you even read what I write? But I see that these "subtle points" are lost on you.

We are not here to discuss what the Rambam and the Ramban said but what YOU said, that coming to Israel before the Mashiah is a Zionist invention. The simple fact that the Ramban prescribed Aliyah proves you are wrong. The fact that is was not practical at his time just explains why it happened only during the 19th century when it became possible. Benjil 16:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No one believes that "mass Aliyah is possible only after the coming of the Mashiah", because mass aliyah has been done. It's a fact that no one denies. Maybe you should read what I write before reverting my edits. Did I talk about mass aliyah being possible in the posts above? I didn't address that issue before the previous paragraph, yet you refer to it as if I raised it. The point I made was that this was never widely deemed as a desirable goal, and certainly never prayed for, and certainly not the meaning of the prayers in the Amidah, which are talking abou the Redemption through Moshiach!. And you have brought not one shred of proof to the contrary. Which makes your edits POV.

I made no edit, you did. And you give no academic source, no reference, nothing that proves your point. It is about time that you understand that I have nothing to prove - you have and you did not. You are the one writing bold affirmations about a "Zionist invention". And this is your right, but only if: 1) You write a source (academic) with it that says that this is a Zionist invention  ; 2) and unless there is a scientific consensus about it, you write that this is the point of view of a particular group. You don't do it, you will be reverted over and over again. I will let you the benefit of the doubt, you seem to be new. So make a new edit that respects these rules, or I will call for an intervention. Benjil 16:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In summary: Maybe you should read what I write before reverting my edits. As for having me banned, please cut the cheap threats and stick to the issues, quoting soruces; thanks. Kol tuv, Yehoishophot Oliver 14:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)