Talk:Alice Liddell

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1 Wonderland Entrance in South Cerney, Gloucestershire?
2 Dodgson's Heirs/Cut Pages
3 Unreadable?
4 Date of death
5 The lead not telling the truth

[edit] Wonderland Entrance in South Cerney, Gloucestershire?

The page http://www.waterpark.org/placesofinterest.html states: 'Lewis Carroll was a friend of the Vicar of South Cerney, the Rev WW Liddell. The Alice¹ stories were written for and about his niece Alice Liddell. He used local features in the stories, such as a very small door at the vicarage as the door to Wonderland.'

The above is often repeated as fact, but is there any evidence to support the statement? User:80.229.10.30 17:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about the part about the sites, but there is absolutely no doubt that the "Alice" character takes her name from Alice Pleasance Liddell. Aside from a great deal of secondary evidence supporting this fact, there is the primary evidence in the poem at the conclusion of Through the Looking Glass, in which Alice's full name is spelled out, reading the first letter of each line downward. Wahkeenah 04:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dodgson's Heirs/Cut Pages

While Dodgson's heirs did indeed destroy most of his papers at his request and probably are responsible for some of the cut pages, many tend to agree that Dodgson cut some of the pages himself. An examination of the diaries shows two different kinds of cut - one jagged and one straight - that strongly suggest that the cutting was performed at two different times, perhaps by two different parties. --[[User:Zanthalon|Zanthalon , ]] 16:25, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Two of these pages, including the one from 1863, have been cut by Lewis Carroll's nieces, Violet Dodgson and Menella Dodgson, as a document discovered by Karoline Leach reveals. We don't know, indeed, who cut the remaining five (although Stuart Collingwood seems to be the main suspect), but all of them were from earlier period. -- Naive cynic 17:29, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

"We don't know, indeed..." Precisely. That is why I worded it the way that I did, to indicate that there is uncertainty about who removed the pages. Another page on the same site you are citing suggests that Dodgson may have done the earlier cutting. I think my wording is more accurate than yours, which says his heirs did the cutting without indicating that who cut some of the pages is in dispute. I think that for the sake of accuracy, my version should be reinstated. This is not worth getting into a revert war over, but I think that we should point out the uncertainty of the situation rather than making a definitive statement one way or the other. --[[User:Zanthalon|Zanthalon

, ]] 20:58, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Missing page "from that time period" (i.e. from 27-29 June 1863) was cut by LC's heirs. Who cut the ones from 1855-1857 is clearly under dispute, but these pages are presumably not directly related to the rift between LC and the Liddells, so I haven't considered mentioning them here useful enough. If you think otherwise, you are, of course, welcome to reintroduce these details. -- Naive cynic 00:33, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

Cut the phrase 'The fact that we now know what caused the famous break...and that it had nothing to do with Alice Liddell.' Article acknowledges that provenance of the note is much disputed; how can we accept its conclusion as fact? --128.36.43.176 07:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreadable?

I believe the text marked [unreadable] in the cut page is "soon". The page in the cut page link http://www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/cutpages.html is titled "pashes" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Netdragon (talk • contribs) .

That word actually looks like it begins with a "g", not an "s". Compare the handwriting with that of the lines immediately below, which (in content) are actually far more interesting. You see, the article states that

Precisely what this note means has yet to be determined, but it seems to imply that the 'break' between Dodgson and the Liddell family was caused by concern over the alleged 'gossip', linking Dodgson to the governess and to 'Ina' (presumably Alice's older sister). Whether there was any foundation in any of this gossip has not been determined.

but the note asks

Does anyone know what the "business with Lord [Newing]" was which put L.C. out of "Mrs Liddell's good graces"

which suggests that there was some sort of to-do with some peer, whose name (if I've deciphered the scrawl correctly) was Lord Newing. Now, if you're looking for a reason why Carroll fell out of favour with the Liddells, wouldn't showing up a member of the aristocracy have kind of done it? It's almost enough to make one want to research the Newing family history. Can't see where you've got that "pashes" idea from, though. Wooster 21:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it reads "so one", not "soon". I think they were more literate than to misspell it, and it seems to be separate words. However, the phrase "he is also supposed so one to be courting Ina" doesn't make much sense, unless it was a colloquial way of saying "so one hears" or some such. Wahkeenah 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies; the first sentence is not my comment, but an unsigned one. I have inserted the usual "unsigned comment" tag. Wooster (talk)

[edit] Date of death

Sometimes November 15 is given as her date of death (for example in Anne Clark's The Real Alice), other sources (including Colin Gordon's Beyond The Looking Glass) give November 16... I was wondering if anybody could clear this up with a dependable source for either date? -- Fritz Saalfeld 20:27, May 11, 2005 (UTC)