Talk:Alexander Hamilton

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Hello. I'm ASECRET. Does anybody know how tall Alexander Hamilton was?


Talk:Alexander Hamilton/Archive 1 includes the following sections: Alexander Hamilton removed from Wikipedia:Good articles, Hamilton a spy?, Capitaliztion question, The Faith-Based Encyclopedia, References, Removed sentence, Birthyear question, Sources and footnotes, Reverting, self-reference and non-reference, Proper form for the references, New photo?, The Reynolds Affair, Arguing before Congress, Hamilton on Currency, Include content from 1911 EB and Making of America?, Redundancy?, George Washington's son?, vandalism, avoid POV about 21st century conservatism, Removal of all quotes, Jay's Treaty Edits, Category, Source needed, Removal of well sourced materail from several authors, Bias and suppression, James Madison, Deletion, The Hamilton literature, Madison on debts 1790

Talk:Alexander Hamilton/Archive 2 contains: Relationship with John Laurens; Jefferson; Expansion; Using scholarship;;Unsourced and unsupported personal opinion; Yes Knox taught Hamilton; Myles Cooper; Monarchy; Weston; What's wrong with the intro; Avoiding Peacock Terms and Personal Attacks; Citation not found; And on a lighter note; The Gerrymandering of New York; Related RfC; Freeing slaves; Jay's treaty again; Who invented that? Irresponsible edits and some subheads.

Talk:Alexander Hamilton/Archive 3 contains Doggerel; Newspaper rhetoric; Third paragraph is a mess; Slavery; Princeton; United States Navy; Alexander Hamilton the Lawyer; Monarchist;9 Party Name for opposition = the tail of this last is retained, as just commented upon.

If any discussion from these topics has not been finished, feel free to bring the thread back to this page.

Contents

[edit] Eventually

Plange suggested we use the word 'eventually' to describe the progression of the name to DR. You seem to have an objection, but have not stated what the objection is. Until you do, the dubious label is inappropriate and should be removed. Skyemoor 01:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:Thomas Jefferson, where the word was suggested. It is not accurate; Democratic-Republican began to be used before Hamilton was shot, and was normal contemporary usage by the time Monroe was President. Septentrionalis 23:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
There are spotty references to the use of DRP around the time of Hamilton's fatal duel; what is your support for "normal contemporary usage by the time Monroe was President", especially at the national level? Skyemoor 00:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The OED and the Dictionary of American English, to start with; do you have a source which actually says otherwise, and if so, what is it? Septentrionalis 07:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Odd; above you said that the OED states is was the Democratic Party. You can't have it both ways; which is it? Still waiting for your evidence. Skyemoor 02:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The OED has a quite long entry on Democratic, which cites both forms. Do try looking up a reference once in a while. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Federalist Papers

Hamilton conceived of the Federalist Papers and orchestrated their creation, recruiting Madison and Jay. Considering Hamilton also wrote the preponderance of the published tracts (well over 50%) there seems to be no justification to belittle this collective accomplishment by highlighting Madison's contributions here (he has his own Wiki entry, doesn't he?). While there is not much arguement that Madison's contributions were significant, nor is there much arguement that Hamilton's were at least equally so and, perhaps more poignently, there is still no absolute agreement as to whether is was Madison of Hamilton that wrote some of the most important entries (#51, for example). Therefore, removal of unjustified and misleading references of Madison in relation to the Federalist Papers that imply some sort of superiority should be removed.Shoreranger 21:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree in part, and disagree in part; claiming that Madison was predominant is a POV; c;aiming that Hamilton was predominant is also a POV; this article should say neither (or both, but the place for that is Federalist Papers, not here). Septentrionalis 22:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1798

Hamilton proceeded to set up an army, which was to guard against invasion and march into the possessions of Spain, then allied with France, and take Louisiana and Mexico. His correspondence further suggests that when he returned in military glory, he dreamed of setting up a properly energetic government, without any Jeffersonians. Adams, however, derailed all plans for war by opening negotiations with France.[21] Adams had also held it right to retain Washington's cabinet, except for cause; he found, in 1800 (after Washington's death), that they were obeying Hamilton rather than himself and fired several of them.[22]

As for this paragraph, I don't think it's POV; the conclusion that Hamilton was considering a bold stroke after his return is Morrison and Commager's, as cited in 21; the reason Adams fired McHenry and Pickering is well-known. I sourced it to ANB, but I do not know of anyone who disagrees (on either point). If Shoreranger has a source, he should add and cite it. Septentrionalis 20:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research

He admired the the success of the British system, and strongly denounced the mob rule first arising from the French Revolution,[1] as Hamilton witnessed first hand how instrumental politically, financially, and militarily France had been in the United States securing independence through the American Revolutionary War.

This passage is original research from primary sources, and has the resulting flaws. It suggests, without source, that Hamilton's opposition to the French Revolution arose from its mob rule, which is clearly false: he opposed it before the reports of the May Days of 1793 reached the United States. I do not understand the intended meaning of "as Hamilton witnessed first hand how instrumental politically, financially, and militarily France had been in the United States securing independence through the American Revolutionary War". As cannot mean "while"; the French instrumentality ended well before Bastile Day, much less "mob rule". Whatever it means, it reads like more unsourced speculation. Septentrionalis 23:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was Hamilton Eligible for Presidency?

The article states: "He worked to defeat both John Adams and Jefferson in the election of 1800 (although he himself didn't run because he was ineligible due to being born outside the US);"

I'm not disputing whether he SHOULD have been president but whether or not he was constitutional barred from the presidency. I don't think he was barred.

The U.S Constitution, Article Two, 1.5 Clause 5: Qualifications for office, says "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Was not Alexander Hamilton "a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution"? He attended King's College in the 1770's (now Columbia College, Columbia University) and was an officer in the Continental Army. By my count, he would have resided in what became the United States between 15 and 20 years when the Constitution was adopted.

(A Political Scientist 01:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Duel with Aaron Burr

Seems to me that this section is a bit sympathetic to Burr and fails to even hint about the wealth of abundant primary sources that demonstrate Hamilton's intent to die at this duel in order to spare Burr's life. Aside from preparing his Last Will and Testament, Hamilton also wrote to his wife and friends explaining that he would not attempt to kill Burr since it went against everything he believed in.

This is not to say that there is no current debate among scholars on this topic, but I believe a fairer rendering of this section could be achieved to demonstrate the two views of this duel. As it currently stands, only one citation exists depicting one view, and that one basically refers to Hamilton as a liar, and this is a comment made by Burr. How unbiased and POV is that?! (Gaytan 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

Hello. I am a basic Wikipedia user and like to skip through the history pages. As such, I was astonished to find absolutely nothing in Hamilton's executive summary about the famous duel that took Hamilton's life. As a student of history and casual observer of other's historical awareness, I believe the duel to be not only one of the most important parts of Hamilton's life (for obvious reasons) but also the major fact about Hamilton that the widest segment of the world's population knows about or will be looking for at Wikipedia. It's as if I arrive at Lincoln's summarizing entry and not know whether or not he died a peaceful death of old age! Aaron Burr's entry surely mentions the fact that he killed Hamilton, so shouldn't Hamilton equally have at least one sentence in his opener mentioning the fact that he was violently killed with a handgun by the then Vice President of the United States??? Just my opinion. 210.20.86.85 05:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nevis

I regret to see that my post here on Nevis did not register. I continue, however, to deprecate Shoreranger's insistence on saying that Hamilton "immigrated" to North America.

  • Nevis is in the Lesser Antilles; it is perverse to call it North America; it may well be closer to South America.
  • Hamilton did not "immigrate"; Nevis was a British colony, just like New Jersey. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

See North America for what is considered in or out. "Immigration", to my understanding, applies from one colonial possession to another, say from India to Canada. If so, then Nevis to New York is just as much so. If it makes anyone feel better, change "immigrate" to "migrate", but Nevis is still in North America, "perverse" or not.Shoreranger 04:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not English. North America begins by defining ts subject as a "continent", which means a continuous body of land before it means anything else. The Lesser Antilles are not even on the North American Plate. The Straits of Cuba are 90 miles wide. As for "immigration", Shoreranger's understanding is both wrong, and insofar as it will suggest that the Thirteen Colonies had an INS to guard against entry from Nevis or Jamaica, very seriously mioleading. Reverting on both grounds. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevis is certainly "English" at the time. The point is to make differentiating "British North America" as specifically the 13 colonies, when Nevis was both a British colonial possession and also in North America. See Nevis, specifically:

"On August 30, 1620, James I of England asserted sovereignty over Nevis by giving a Royal Patent for colonisation to the Earl of Carlisle. However actual European settlement did not happen until 1628 when Anthony Hilton moved from nearby Saint Kitts following a murder plot against him. He was accompanied by 80 other settlers, soon to be boosted by a further 100 settlers from London who had originally hoped to settle Barbuda. Hilton became the first Governor of Nevis. After the 1671 peace treaty between Spain and England, Nevis became the seat of the British colony and the Admiralty Court sat in Nevis. Between 1675 and 1730, the island was the headquarter for the slave trade for the Leeward Islands, with approximately 6,000-7,000 enslaved West Africans passing through on route to other islands each year. The Royal African Company brought all its ships through Nevis.[3]"


Again, see North America -- I will save you the effort and quote the most pertinent section here:

"There are numerous islands off the continent’s coasts: principally, the Arctic Archipelago, the Greater and Lesser Antilles, the Alexander Archipelago, and the Aleutian Islands. Greenland, a Danish self-governing island and the world's largest, is on the same tectonic plate (the North American Plate) and is part of North America geographically. Bermuda is not part of the Americas, but is an oceanic island formed on the fissure of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. The nearest landmass to it is Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, and it is often thought of as part of North America, especially given its historical political and cultural ties to Virginia and other parts of the continent."

See human migration, since "immigration" seems to be too specific and requires nation-states and may not include migration from one colonial possession to another. No inference of an INS was reasonably infered or in the slightest bit intended.Shoreranger 21:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Removing revert on these grounds, with correction to "migrate".

And Nevis, unlike Long Island or Greenland, is not part of the North American Plate; see Caribbean Plate. (I hope Shoreranger is not extending these innovations to Greenland, btw.; saying that Nevis is North America is merely silly; saying Greenland is can be offensive.) Since Hamilton is neither a tribe nor a bird, he didn't "migrate" either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the unusual requirement that Hamilton be a bird or a tribe to migrate, again, please see human migration to broaden those unexplained limitations, particularly (bolds added):

"Different types of migration include:

  • Daily human commuting can be compared to the diurnal migration of organisms in the oceans.
  • Seasonal human migration is mainly related to agriculture.
  • Permanent migration, for the purposes of permanent or long-term stays.
  • Local
  • Regional
  • Rural to Urban, more common in developing countries as industrialisation takes effect
  • Urban to Rural, more common in developed countries due to a higher cost of urban living
  • International

Human migration has taken place at all times and in the greatest variety of circumstances. It has been tribal, national, class and individual. Its causes have been climatic, political, economic, religious, or mere love of adventure. Its causes and results are fundamental for the study of ethnology, of political and social history, and of political economy."

Shoreranger 19:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for another demonstration why Wikipedia should not be used as a reference. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for being so liberal with your opinions. Here's to hoping people who care about what Wikipedia is trying to acomplish and constructively contribute to that end are ever more successful. Perhaps then you will have less to complain about, if that is possible.Shoreranger 02:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No thank you for adding your unsupported falsehoods to Wikipedia. Alexander Hamilton never had an anti-slavery policy for the United States; he prefered the Union, and supported a gag rule in Congress as the necessary price for preserving South Carolina to the Union (and the Federalist Party, which he did not distinguish from the Union). Try reading this article before you edit it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Special Relationship"

So, according to the recent edit, the sentence structure implies that Hamilton personally, himself, alone had a special relationship with the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. I do not think that Hamilton constituted a nation unto himself.Shoreranger 04:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, he did have a foreign policy of his own; but including the Hammond affair in full detail is not what I want to do today. I have inserted a clarification. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slavery, again

Hamilton was anti-slavery. There are a number of sources cited for that. Many anti-slavery reps. to Congress went along with comprimises to maintain the Union, that does not make them pro-slavery. Was Ben Franklin pro-slavery, then?Shoreranger 04:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hamilton was anti-slavery in New York, where almost every prominent man was; only one member of the New York legislature voted against all versions of emancipation in 1785. The difference between Franklin and Hamilton is that Franklin and the Pennsylvania Abolition Society petitioned Congress against slavery; Hamilton lobbied, successfully, to have the petition thrown out. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Hamilton was anti-slavery in New York, whiere most northern slaves were located, and where pro-slavery forces blocked all emancipation plans until 1799. Hamilton was active for years in fighting the slave trade, which was based in part in his NEw York City. He even crossed very bitter party lines to cooperate with his archeenemy Burr to fight slavery. Franklin was a slaveowner who supported slavery during the Revolution when Hamilton was trying to arm the slaves; Franklin indeed changed late in life and lent his name to other people's petitions but his Pennsylvania had few slaves. Here's Ben explaining away slavery in 1770:
Franklin, "A Conversation on Slavery" Jan. 26, 1770. in Library of America edition: "New England, the most populous of all the English Possessions in America, has very few Slaves; and those are chiefly in the capital Towns, not employed in the hardest Labour, but as Footmen or House-maids. The same may be said of the next populous Provinces, New-York, New Jersey, and Pensylvania. Even in Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas, where they are employed in Field-work, what Slaves there are belong chiefly to the old rich Inhabitants, near the navigable Waters, who are few compared with the numerous Families of Back-Settlers, that have scarce any Slaves among them. In Truth, there is not, take North-America through, perhaps, one Family in a Hundred that has a Slave in it. Many Thousands there abhor the Slave Trade as much as Mr. Sharpe can do, conscientiously avoid being concerned with it, and do every Thing in their Power to abolish it. Supposing it then with that Gentleman, a Crime to keep a Slave, can it be right to stigmatize us all with that Crime? If one Man of a Hundred in England were dishonest, would it be right from thence to characterize the Nation, and say the English are Rogues and Thieves? But farther, of those who do keep Slaves, all are not Tyrants and Oppressors. Many treat their Slaves with great Humanity, and provide full as well for them in Sickness and in Health, as your poor labouring People in England are provided for. Your working Poor are not indeed absolutely Slaves; but there seems something a little like Slavery, where the Laws oblige them to work for their Masters so many Hours at such a Rate, and leave them no Liberty to demand or bargain for more, but imprison them in a Workhouse if they refuse to work on such Terms; and even imprison a humane Master if he thinks fit to pay them better; at the same Time confining the poor ingenious Artificer to this Island, and forbidding him to go abroad, though offered better Wages in foreign Countries. As to the Share England has in these Enormities of America, remember, Sir, that she began the Slave Trade; that her Merchants of London, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow, send their Ships to Africa for the Purpose of purchasing Slaves. If any unjust Methods are used to procure them; if Wars are fomented to obtain Prisoners; if free People are enticed on board, and then confined and brought away; if petty Princes are bribed to sell their Subjects, who indeed are already a Kind of Slaves, is America to have all the Blame of this Wickedness? You bring the Slaves to us, and tempt us to purchase them. I do not justify our falling into the Temptation. To be sure, if you have stolen Men to sell to us, and we buy them, you may urge against us the old and true saying, that _the Receiver is as bad as the Thief._ This Maxim was probably made for those who needed the Information, as being perhaps ignorant that _receiving_ was in it's Nature as bad as _stealing_: But the Reverse of the Position was never thought necessary to be formed into a Maxim, nobody ever doubted that _the Thief is as bad as the Receiver_. This you have not only done and continue to do, but several Laws heretofore made in our Colonies, to discourage the Importation of Slaves, by laying a heavy Duty, payable by the Importer, have been disapproved and repealed by your Government here, as being prejudicial, forsooth, to the Interest of the African Company." (end BF 1770) Rjensen 08:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
In 1770, Hamilton was a school-boy; and the major opponent of slavery was John Woolman, who was widely ignored (except perhaps in Pennsylvania). This is an exercise in irrelevant anachronism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal attacks on Wiki contributors

"Lie" is a strong word and, when used in the context of anonimity on Wiki, its use as an accusation in edit comments amounts to cowardice in my opinion. I will not be goaded into sinking to similar depths, but I do recommend that such freely made accusations be avoided and that some Wiki administrator take notice of it when it occurs. I don't have the time to engage in petty squabbles.Shoreranger 04:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Depiction of Duel Inaccurate

The depiction of the duel is also inaccurate in that it places the shooters to close to each other. Each walked ten paces-at least three feet from center-which would make a distance of at least 60 feet between them, something not accurately depicted in the illustation, meaning they would have been at least twice as far apart.Tom Cod 05:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hamilton's children

I found no explicit mention of Hamilton's offspring. He apparently had 10 children! I should think that would merit some mention! I will add something just to remedy that. Bigmac31 17:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

He was married for twenty-four years in a pretechnological age, and his wife loved him deeply. What's the surprise? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verification

20-March-2007 (revised 20Mar07): The article ("Alexander Hamilton") is not presentedly protected from unregistered edits, so verification of tampered details can be an issue. Basic sanity-check facts:

Alexander Hamilton (January 11, 1755/1757–July 12, 1804) was an Army officer, lawyer, Founding Father, American politician, leading statesman, financier and political theorist. One of America's foremost constitutional lawyers, he was a leader in calling the U.S. Constitutional Convention in 1787; he was one of the two leading authors of the Federalist Papers, the most important interpretation of the United States Constitution.
Hamilton created the Federalist party, the first American political party, built up using Treasury department patronage, networks of elite leaders, and aggressive newspaper editors which he subsidized both through Treasury patronage and loans from his own pocket. Hamilton had 10 children. Aaron Burr shot him in the lower abdomen during the duel on July 11, 1804, and Hamilton died the next day.

Other critical dates/facts should be added briefly above for fact verification, when fixing any future flurry of vandalism reverts. -Wikid77 10:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

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