Talk:Alex Au

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I do believe that however, this statement is highly biased, which is '(Alex Au) continues to play an active role in contributing to the development of civil society in Singapore.' I think this statement should be removed as there is no supporting evidence of anything that he has actively done to develop the civil society of Singapore. And since Gyron88 seemed to be close to Alex Au, I believe this article is not neutral. I will kindly hope for you to state your stand on this, Gyron88. Heron_Kusanagi 13:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Groyn88, please stop removing the

tag since the points of contention are not resolved, no matter how much you undo the edits every other contributor puts in. Akikonomu 20:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• You have not specified which sentence contains the disputed fact/facts. If you do attempt to edit, kindly do so without deleting factual information. You have repeatedly deleted whole paragraphs, which is deplorable. Kindly just rewrite individual sentences to have an NPOV turn of phrase.
• You have also no basis in disagreeing with the statement that Au is thought to be "the founding father of the Singapore gay equality movement" because you have not suggested any alternative names who even come close to vying for that title. If you feel that it is not one person but a group of individuals or any organisation that has been instrumental and has done more to advance gay equality, please state the name of that person/s. If you cannot, kindly stop disputing that particular sentence. As far as I am concerned, there are no controversial facts in this article and I shall be removing the POV tag soon.
• Why don't you become a better "contributor" by adding information instead of deleting it? You haven't added any factual information to these articles at all. It's a lot easier to delete others' work than to add your own. Don't be so lazy.

Groyn88 17:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Since we're unable to agree on whether Alex Au is the Minister Mentor of the Singapore gay equality movement, we can surely agree to compromise with he "is a key figure" in the movement. You might want to add a category for PLU committee members or something.

• If Alex Au is not the "founding father of the Singapore gay equality movement", can you name any other person who fits the bill?Groyn88 16:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  • The Singapore gay equality movement existed long before Alex Au came along. There are other key figures in the current PLU committee and group of activists that you downplay by giving him Senior Minister of Gay Affairs status. The onus is on you to give citations that he is "regarded by many as the founding father".Akikonomu 06:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
• Kindly name these "other key figures" and state the year in which they became publicly active in the Singapore gay equality movement. Au started the PLU discussion group in 1993 and laid the groundwork for PLU's registration as a society in 1996. Since then, he has been the most well-recognised gay activist in Singapore. Can you name just one other activist who commenced work as early as he did and is associated more strongly in the general public's mind with gay activism?
  • Let's see. Is Alex Au the President of PLU? No?

Please provide citations to prove he founded the Signel discussion group. ALso, note that the discussion group would have included other people and activists, who might still be active today. Those are the other fathers and mothers of the gay rights movement that you do injustice to, by continually insisting on having Alex Au as its Senior Minister and Sir Stamford Raffles.

• Eileena Lee is currently the President of PLU. She is much younger than Alex Au and only came on the activist scene much later. You can ask her yourself (via her Yahoo! profile page:[1]) whether Alex Au founded both the PLU and SiGNeL discussion groups. The answer in both cases is an unqualified "Yes!". Everyone on SiGNeL knows that Alex is the list owner of SiGNeL. Everyone except you, that is. If you do not have first-hand knowledge of Singaporean gay history, kindly stop meddling with these articles. Do some background reading or speak to some gay activists first.Groyn88 08:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• • "Since then, he has been the most well-recognised gay activist in Singapore." Kindly produce references to back that up, please. The onus is still on you to produce evidence - surveys, polls - that back the statement. You might want to try to modify it to say Alex Au is a prominent activist of the PLU era. Kindly explain how the theatre movement and its gay-themed plays and their authors cannot be described to be more activist and more associated in the public eye with the gay equality movement than Alex Au. Akikonomu 07:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

None of the theatre practitioners or authors in the early 1990s identified themselves as gay to the general public, and they were certainly not willing to be quoted in the press as "gay activists". They only made a statement via their books and their plays. The onus is on YOU to refer to the numerous Straits Times and Today articles which interviewed Alex Au and quoted him as a gay activist, the very first one ever to be referred to as such by the press.Groyn88 08:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Also, kindly qualify your statement "The Singapore gay equality movement existed long before Alex Au came along." by stating who did exactly what, and when. It's no use using examples of gay individuals bitching in private about inequality. We want to know if any LGBT person has taken concrete action to raise mainstream society's awareness of gay issues in the highly-visible way that Au has.Groyn88 03:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

2. If non-objective claims are made ("invisible to foreigners", "less perceptive natives"), and made in a patronising manner, it's best to cite external sources making the claims, or have them moved out. We don't exactly need a movie critic-style review of the website. Akikonomu 20:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

If non-objective claims are made ("incisive", etc.), it's best to cite external sources making the claims rather than having the wikipedia article make them directly. Tlogmer 17:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The description of Alex Au as being "a central figure" in the Singapore gay equality movement does not do him justice. He is "THE" central figure. No Singaporean would dispute that. As such, I am reinstating the words "regarded by many to be the founding father...". The latter still falls short of accurate as you would be hard put to come up with any Singaporean, gay or otherwise, who would dispute that statement.Groyn88 13:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I am one Singaporean who disputes that description. I certainly do not know who he is.--Huaiwei 16:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It just shows that you have not even read the information contained in the article. Moreover, you have also not bothered to visit his website. So what basis have you got to dispute the statement that he is "the founding father of the Singapore gay equality movement"? If you dispute this description, name an alternative person who qualifies for the title. If you cannot do so, kindly remove the "disputed" template.Groyn88 15:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Why would I need to visit a person's personal website to know about him if he is notable enough? Do we need to visit Lee Kuan Yew's personal website, or Sun Yanzi's fan site to know they exist? No. So just who is this Alex to deserve homework on the part of others?--Huaiwei 14:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Authenticity check: A search reveals that the phrase "regarded by many" appears in the text. Is the phrase a symptom of a dubious statement? Could a source be quoted instead? Perhaps the "many" could be identified? Might text be edited to more genuinely reflect specific facts? —Wetman

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 07:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)